CNN Demonizes Vaping

[WelshBloke]

...

You probably want to pay attention to who you're arguing with and what they are saying.

I've not been arguing against the use of ecigs or for their regulation (although for the record I do believe they need regulating).

 

[Brian Stirling]

I rarely get to the point I'd want to punch someone in the face, but you've come really close I guess.

:biggrin:

Nah.

I know why you're mad ... you know I'm right and that it's just a matter of time before they start cracking down on it.

Repeat after me ... Just a matter of time, just a matter of time, just a matter of time.

You're welcome!


Brian

 

[Belegost]

Because that's not how free society works.

Someone harming themselves is perfectly legal as long as it does not infringe on your or my legally-protected liberties. It's why other people can eat themselves to death if they want to and junk food is not illegal. You can't just ban something until it is proven safe because being safe to the user is not a legal requirement.

If it does infringe on your legally-protected liberties as it would where it can be shown to harm bystanders who did not willingly inflict the harm on themselves, then it can be regulated in the name of protecting the public's liberty.

The role of the law is to preserve external threats to your life and liberty, not to preserve itself nor is it to protect you from yourself.

Your premise is flawed, there are many things society has made illegal to do in public which are not proven "threats to your life and liberty."

Take public decency laws. You go out to Sizzler, and you're waiting for your steak, where's the harm in pulling it out for a nice wank at the table? It's not like you are jamming it in anyone's mouth, it's obviously harmless. Why are people so upset because you just want to rub one out before dinner, if they don't want to be around people jerking it they should go hide in their basement.

 

[OutHouse]

Your premise is flawed, there are many things society has made illegal to do in public which are not proven "threats to your life and liberty."

Take public decency laws. You go out to Sizzler, and you're waiting for your steak, where's the harm in pulling it out for a nice wank at the table? It's not like you are jamming it in anyone's mouth, it's obviously harmless. Why are people so upset because you just want to rub one out before dinner, if they don't want to be around people jerking it they should go hide in their basement.

Worst analogy ever

 

[JEDIYoda]

Your premise is flawed, there are many things society has made illegal to do in public which are not proven "threats to your life and liberty."

Take public decency laws. You go out to Sizzler, and you're waiting for your steak, where's the harm in pulling it out for a nice wank at the table? It's not like you are jamming it in anyone's mouth, it's obviously harmless. Why are people so upset because you just want to rub one out before dinner, if they don't want to be around people jerking it they should go hide in their basement.

Eventually this thread would attract the goofy.....like I am just saying -- look at his premise...rofl!!

 

[tortillasoup]

Your premise is flawed, there are many things society has made illegal to do in public which are not proven "threats to your life and liberty."

Take public decency laws. You go out to Sizzler, and you're waiting for your steak, where's the harm in pulling it out for a nice wank at the table? It's not like you are jamming it in anyone's mouth, it's obviously harmless. Why are people so upset because you just want to rub one out before dinner, if they don't want to be around people jerking it they should go hide in their basement.

I like this analogy. I'll be sure to use it in my next argument, regardless of the topic.

 

[MongGrel]

I know why you're mad ... you know I'm right and that it's just a matter of time before they start cracking down on it.

Repeat after me ... Just a matter of time, just a matter of time, just a matter of time.

You're welcome!


Brian

Nah, I'm long over that.

Shouldn't have let it bother me at all.

 

[flexy]

Just ONE random example out of my head.

You go to any other store BUT "Whole Foods", say Walmart, Jewel, Kroeger's whatever. You buy your daily groceries AND IT'S A GIVEN that your bread, produce, candy, sweetener will contain chemicals, dies, preservatives, this and that. MANY of those ingredients knowing to be causing cancer.

But you want laws regulating vaping...because you're afraid that there might be a trace of PG or VG in the vape that's harmful? (DESPITE a number of studies which do suggest this is indeed NOT the case, the best you have is "we don't know").

Then you wonder why we call you irrational and think you're arguing *purely* because you think "it's annoying"...because this is how it looks to me: You want it banned because it is "annoying" and you don't even care about what actual studies say.

Imagine there WOULD or COULD be a study that MIGHT tell that someone could blow vape in your face all fricking day long and it wouldn't harm you in any way. Then you would probably still call for bans, right?

 

[WelshBloke]

Worst analogy ever

It was pretty bad, entertaining, but bad.

A better example would be the pharmaceutical trade. Nicotine is a drug and vaping is a way of administering that drug.

Would you be arguing that a pharmaceutical company shouldn’t do clinical trials to prove that a drug and drug administering system was safe?

So why should a guy in his garage get to sell it unregulated?

 

[Brainonska511]

You go to any other store BUT "Whole Foods", say Walmart, Jewel, Kroeger's whatever. You buy your daily groceries AND IT'S A GIVEN that your bread, produce, candy, sweetener will contain chemicals, dies, preservatives, this and that. MANY of those ingredients knowing to be causing cancer.

No it is not "a given". Organic foods (eg: Whole Foods) are not inherently safer than conventional varieties. Synthetic is not synonymous with dangerous and natural is not synonymous with safe. Don't be blinded by irrational chemophobia and don't forget the #1 rule of Toxicology: The dose makes the poison.

If you're worried to such a degree about stuff containing carcinogens (even at dosages that will never lead to any harmful effects), you better stop eating apples. They contain small amounts of naturally occurring formaldehyde.

 

[Scarpozzi]

I just don't like the fact that these jerks that vape try to do it indoors. I don't care if they want to do it in their cars or in their own homes. When I'm at work, or in a restaurant, or wherever...I don't want to smell vanilla or sandlewood or the flavor they happen to have picked that day. I think people who do that stuff have no class and are basically dependent morons that probably have other addiction issues.

I almost think smoking a cigarette or cigar in public makes more sense than falling prey to the industry they're trying to create in the wake of the highly taxed tobacco market. This whole vaping thing is only made possible by people too weak to quit a habit they can't afford.

 

[Eug]

I just don't like the fact that these jerks that vape try to do it indoors. I don't care if they want to do it in their cars or in their own homes. When I'm at work, or in a restaurant, or wherever...I don't want to smell vanilla or sandlewood or the flavor they happen to have picked that day. I think people who do that stuff have no class and are basically dependent morons that probably have other addiction issues.

I almost think smoking a cigarette or cigar in public makes more sense than falling prey to the industry they're trying to create in the wake of the highly taxed tobacco market. This whole vaping thing is only made possible by people too weak to quit a habit they can't afford.

I'm always shocked at just how much people with no money are willing to spend on smokes. A pack-a-day habit is like a half-month's rent in many places.

But then again I'm a cheap bastard. Perhaps being a cheap bastard helps avoiding becoming a smoker and an alcoholic. 😉

 

[CZroe]

Your premise is flawed, there are many things society has made illegal to do in public which are not proven "threats to your life and liberty."



Take public decency laws. You go out to Sizzler, and you're waiting for your steak, where's the harm in pulling it out for a nice wank at the table? It's not like you are jamming it in anyone's mouth, it's obviously harmless. Why are people so upset because you just want to rub one out before dinner, if they don't want to be around people jerking it they should go hide in their basement.

Such indecency is deemed harmful to minors which is why pornography is not allowed for minors and disturbs the public peace. You can argue against it, but that is exactly the justification for laws against indecency.

It was pretty bad, entertaining, but bad.

A better example would be the pharmaceutical trade. Nicotine is a drug and vaping is a way of administering that drug.

Would you be arguing that a pharmaceutical company shouldn’t do clinical trials to prove that a drug and drug administering system was safe?

So why should a guy in his garage get to sell it unregulated?

I don't know how many times we've had to tell you this, but vaping does not require nicotine, THC, or other drugs. They can put nicotine in gum too but it doesn't mean that anyone chewing gum is dosing up on nicotine. It sounds like you advocate regulating gum-chewing just because some people chew nicotine gum. We've been pointing this out to you over and over as the basis of our argument but you keep ignoring it and going back to your "vaping is a way of administering [nicotine]" point as if that changes anything.

No it is not "a given". Organic foods (eg: Whole Foods) are not inherently safer than conventional varieties. Synthetic is not synonymous with dangerous and natural is not synonymous with safe. Don't be blinded by irrational chemophobia and don't forget the #1 rule of Toxicology: The dose makes the poison.

If you're worried to such a degree about stuff containing carcinogens (even at dosages that will never lead to any harmful effects), you better stop eating apples. They contain small amounts of naturally occurring formaldehyde.

Yup:
http://youtu.be/bkhhCi7nMFI

http://youtu.be/vPszR0-vTqc

They also have a recent video on vaping where they conclude exactly what I did: there may be additional health concerns for users and bystanders but we have to wait and see before we can do anything about them.

I just don't like the fact that these jerks that vape try to do it indoors. I don't care if they want to do it in their cars or in their own homes. When I'm at work, or in a restaurant, or wherever...I don't want to smell vanilla or sandlewood or the flavor they happen to have picked that day. I think people who do that stuff have no class and are basically dependent morons that probably have other addiction issues.



I almost think smoking a cigarette or cigar in public makes more sense than falling prey to the industry they're trying to create in the wake of the highly taxed tobacco market. This whole vaping thing is only made possible by people too weak to quit a habit they can't afford.

You can't impose your will on other people just because you and some others don't like it. That's socialism, not freedom.

 

[JM Aggie08]

The butt-hurt is strong.

 

[IronWing]

You can't impose your will on other people just because you and some others don't like it. That's socialism, not freedom.

"The freedom to smoke!" The eighties called just to let you now that bullshit didn't fly then and won't fly now with vaping.

 

[CZroe]

"The freedom to smoke!" The eighties called just to let you now that bullshit didn't fly then and won't fly now with vaping.

Stop mischaracterizing what I am saying. Second-hand smoke is PROVEN harmful to innocent bystanders who do not have the freedom to chose what YOU expose them to so I FULLY support regulating it. If it just so happens that vaping is similarly dangerous to innocent bystanders, it too needs to be regulated. I have no objections to that. :shock:

What I am objecting to is this stupid idea that it needs to be controlled and regulated FIRST until it can be proven safe. That isn't how it happened with tobacco smoke and that isn't how it should happen with vapes.

How about I just decide that anything you want to do could be unsafe so you aren't allowed to do it until it's proven safe. You can't even go out the front door. How is that "freedom?"

The objection to second-hand smoke was not supported by law because people didn't like it. You can't simply claim that it infringes on your pursuit of happiness and disturbs the peace because you could say that about anything you might have a psychosomatic aversion to and then your psychosomatic aversion is restraining my liberty. It had to be proven harmful to their liberties, which is exactly what happened.

 

[sourceninja]

...

 

[Eug]

So I got up, walked over to him and started blowing in his face. He got upset and I told him to calm down, because it's just water vapor. Needless to say he got the point and stopped blowing his shit down the bar. They are now discussing a ban on e-cigs because people can't use them responsibly.

A complete ban in public government owned places and in bars and restaurants across North America would be great.

I don't care about the health risks, I care about the floating fog that fills up the room, obstructs my view, smells nasty (most of those flavors smell like dying animals to me), and is being used in a rude manner that was never done with cigs or cigars unless you were trying to start a fight. If you blew your shit up in the air or away from people that would be fine, but these assholes seem to blow it for the purpose of attention. Some of them even mod their devices to make the most volume possible.

Yeah, it's become a fad for teens too.

 

[OutHouse]

A few nights ago I was at my local brewery where some dumb shit was vaping. He kept blowing his fog down the bar right into where my friend and I were sitting. I asked him kindly to blow that shit another direction because it's annoying to have a fog constantly blown in your face (this shit never happened with cigarettes btw). He decided otherwise and continued to blow his fog down the bar.

So I got up, walked over to him and started blowing in his face. He got upset and I told him to calm down, because it's just water vapor. Needless to say he got the point and stopped blowing his shit down the bar. They are now discussing a ban on e-cigs because people can't use them responsibly.

I don't care about the health risks, I care about the floating fog that fills up the room, obstructs my view, smells nasty (most of those flavors smell like dying animals to me), and is being used in a rude manner that was never done with cigs or cigars unless you were trying to start a fight. If you blew your shit up in the air or away from people that would be fine, but these assholes seem to blow it for the purpose of attention. Some of them even mod their devices to make the most volume possible.

It was rude when it was a smoke, and it's rude now that it's way more visible and voluminous. I have no problem with vaping, smoking, etc responsibly. I just don't see near the level of respect that smokers had. Smokers wouldn't lite up at your table when you were eating dinner. Smokers wouldn't blow it at you. Smokers would ask before lighting up if they were in your car, your home, etc. Smokers never got upset with you for asking them to be respectful or to make a concession for you.

We are sharing a space after all, let's work together to both have a good time. You can feel free to give robots blow jobs as long as I don't have to take the load in the face.

yes that would piss me off as well.

 

[OutHouse]

I'm always shocked at just how much people with no money are willing to spend on smokes. A pack-a-day habit is like a half-month's rent in many places.

But then again I'm a cheap bastard. Perhaps being a cheap bastard helps avoiding becoming a smoker and an alcoholic. 😉

ill never understand this either.

 

[CZroe]

A few nights ago I was at my local brewery where some dumb shit was vaping. He kept blowing his fog down the bar right into where my friend and I were sitting. I asked him kindly to blow that shit another direction because it's annoying to have a fog constantly blown in your face (this shit never happened with cigarettes btw). He decided otherwise and continued to blow his fog down the bar.

So I got up, walked over to him and started blowing in his face. He got upset and I told him to calm down, because it's just water vapor. Needless to say he got the point and stopped blowing his shit down the bar. They are now discussing a ban on e-cigs because people can't use them responsibly.

Did you stop breathing your water vapor down the bar? Just because you can't see it doesn't mean...

I don't care about the health risks, I care about the floating fog that fills up the room, obstructs my view, smells nasty (most of those flavors smell like dying animals to me), and is being used in a rude manner that was never done with cigs or cigars unless you were trying to start a fight. If you blew your shit up in the air or away from people that would be fine, but these assholes seem to blow it for the purpose of attention. Some of them even mod their devices to make the most volume possible.

It was rude when it was a smoke, and it's rude now that it's way more visible and voluminous. I have no problem with vaping, smoking, etc responsibly. I just don't see near the level of respect that smokers had. Smokers wouldn't lite up at your table when you were eating dinner.

You must be a millennial if you seriously think that. Yes, they did. Watch any old movie. They really did that. Romanticizing the history of public smokers to bag on vapers is not the way to make your point.

Smokers wouldn't blow it at you.

Yes, they would.

Smokers would ask before lighting up if they were in your car, your home, etc.

There was a period where they often did not.

Smokers never got upset with you for asking them to be respectful or to make a concession for you.

Oh, yes they did.

We are sharing a space after all, let's work together to both have a good time. You can feel free to give robots blow jobs as long as I don't have to take the load in the face.

Agreed. I'm not defending jerks. Not all vapers are jerks because it isn't the vaping that makes people jerks. It isn't black and white.

 

[Ichinisan]

Yeah, it's become a fad for teens too.

Do a few odd examples really count as a "fad?"

 

[Eug]

Do a few odd examples really count as a "fad?"

??? As of 2014, roughly 13% of US high school teens vape. That's hardly "a few odd examples".

BTW, the number was less than 2% in 2011.

 

[Ichinisan]

CZroe is my twin brother. Our half-brother lives out-of-state, but he's definitely one of those ignorant vapers. When he last came to visit, he was puffing away on his vaper no matter where he went, indoors and out.

He misunderstood every remark from a stranger as curiosity. I think he still had no idea they were trying to tell him it was a faux pas to use the thing in every convenience store and supermarket.

 

[Ichinisan]

??? As of 2014, roughly 13% of US high school teens vape. That's hardly "a few odd examples".

That's so sensational, it simply must be true!

In reality, that statistic just can't be true. Almost surely a distortion. Probably 13% of teens have tried a vaper belonging to a friend or family member, but do not own one or vape/smoke regularly. I used to see teens smoking all the time. Now, it's incredibly rare and shocking to see. I've never seen a teenager vaping.