Clinton to hand over email server to FBI

[PokerGuy]

http://www.fas.org/sgp/library/quist2/chap_11.html

Information can in fact be declassified by the original classification authority, or someone who has been delegated those powers by the president. It would make sense if SecState was one of those individuals.

There is obviously a process to go through, with approvals and documentation. Otherwise, how would anyone know what documents are in fact classified versus ones that someone on a whim decided shouldn't be? No, she can't just waive her arms and magically deem everything on her server de-classified. Guys, common, your mental gymnastics to defend this stupidity are getting comical now.

We don't know if it was criminal or not (and if it was, if the bummer and his minions will allow the doj to do anything about it), but stop with this idiotic spinning. It's pathetic.

 

[BoberFett]

Yeah, the far left is insisting on a curious dichotomy here where Hillary declassifies documents to run them through her personal server, then later these documents are classified so that the little people cannot see them. It's odd to find people that determined to give dictatorial powers over themselves.

It's all same old game. One team has to attack on every detail, the other side has to defend every possible action.

To Republicans, Hillary is Satan incarnate, and she was probably sending all of our military secrets to ISIS through her private server, and conspiring to bring Sharia law to the US with Obama and all of the other Muslim world leaders.

To Democrats, big old mean Republicans are just picking on poor, beleaguered Hillary. Probably because they hate women. And as we all know women (well women who are Democrats anyway, Republican women are she-bitches) are above reproach and questioning them is tantamount to treason.

Or something.

 

[werepossum]

It's all same old game. One team has to attack on every detail, the other side has to defend every possible action.

To Republicans, Hillary is Satan incarnate, and she was probably sending all of our military secrets to ISIS through her private server, and conspiring to bring Sharia law to the US with Obama and all of the other Muslim world leaders.

To Democrats, big old mean Republicans are just picking on poor, beleaguered Hillary. Probably because they hate women. And as we all know women (well women who are Democrats anyway, Republican women are she-bitches) are above reproach and questioning them is tantamount to treason.

Or something.

Pretty much. Behavior like this should be criticized, in the strongest possible terms. We just shouldn't pretend it's particularly unique.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Pretty much. Behavior like this should be criticized, in the strongest possible terms. We just shouldn't pretend it's particularly unique.

Being called a hack used to be considered a huge insult...nowadays some folks wear it like a crown. Times have changed.

 

[Cozarkian]

http://www.fas.org/sgp/library/quist2/chap_11.html

Information can in fact be declassified by the original classification authority, or someone who has been delegated those powers by the president. It would make sense if SecState was one of those individuals.

If Hillary is willing to declassify information that should be classified in order to avoid being caught in a lie, then she is bat shit crazy. Why would you evenly remotely consider defending such behavior?

Hillary is either a liar because there was classified information, incompetent because she failed to classify and/or recognize classified information, or so egotistical that she is willing to engage in the treasonous behavior of declassifying information for personal gain.

 

[Jhhnn]

There is obviously a process to go through, with approvals and documentation. Otherwise, how would anyone know what documents are in fact classified versus ones that someone on a whim decided shouldn't be? No, she can't just waive her arms and magically deem everything on her server de-classified. Guys, common, your mental gymnastics to defend this stupidity are getting comical now.

We don't know if it was criminal or not (and if it was, if the bummer and his minions will allow the doj to do anything about it), but stop with this idiotic spinning. It's pathetic.

Please. None of it was labeled as classified when it went in. Therefore it was not classified if she deemed it to be so. Any SoS has that discretion.

Or should we have inspector general muckety mucks clear SoS email before it's sent? Paw through their inbox?

Such notions are absurd.

 

[PokerGuy]

Please. None of it was labeled as classified when it went in.

Uh, considering nobody has had full access to all the emails yet and they've been "scrubbed", how exactly do you know if classified stuff came into the server or not?

Therefore it was not classified if she deemed it to be so. Any SoS has that discretion.

There is a formal process for classifying or not classifying things, it's not just whether her imperial royal majesty deemed it to be or not. Again, that's a pathetic attempt at spin, you can do better.

 

[HumblePie]

Please. None of it was labeled as classified when it went in. Therefore it was not classified if she deemed it to be so. Any SoS has that discretion.

Or should we have inspector general muckety mucks clear SoS email before it's sent? Paw through their inbox?

Such notions are absurd.

You don't know how classification works still despite the links to them.

Let me go through this again. Her computer is on the public internet. Classified info is only on the SIPRNET which has zero connections to the public internet. There is no way to take direct classified info stored on the SIPRNET and move it to the public internet without an audit trail following the actions a mile long. SIPRNET computers are inside of SCIFs that have a long of security built in around them. Basically you can't bring any pretty much anything electronic into them without prior approval that is a PITA to do.

So there would be no direct classified info on her systems that came from classified systems. No one is claiming that. What people are stating is that classified info was talked about in emails that went through her server. It's not the actual classified info, but the meta info surrounding the classified info. None of that meta info is going to be labeled classified. Duh! Every person that has to work with classified info should know this as it is required training that is done constantly to reinforce that knowledge.

The problem is that by default meta info about classified info IS STILL CLASSIFIED! It takes a review board to determine if the meta info that surrounded a discussion about a classified topic is not classified. She doesn't have the authority by herself to deem that even as the SoS.

 

[Jhhnn]

If Hillary is willing to declassify information that should be classified in order to avoid being caught in a lie, then she is bat shit crazy. Why would you evenly remotely consider defending such behavior?

Hillary is either a liar because there was classified information, incompetent because she failed to classify and/or recognize classified information, or so egotistical that she is willing to engage in the treasonous behavior of declassifying information for personal gain.

She didn't declassify anything pertinent to this discussion. Her email never was classified. Nor was any of it intended for public consumption other than after govt security scrutiny. Start from there, try again.

It's obvious that you're not looking at this for what it is but rather as you want it to be to bolster existing belief & attitude.

Some security pinhead says that some bit of SoS email should have had a top secret end of the world classification?

Heh. Lemme whip out my govt organization chart... said pinhead is def outranked by the SoS, who has the authority to do the job at the time, let the pinheads sort out what's available to the public later on. Same as it ever was.

 

[HumblePie]

Also, for those that are asking the hyperbolic question of why she hasn't been charged with a crime if there was classified info found by the FBI....

The FBI has found potential classified info that is meta type info which they don't know if it is truly classified or not yet. That is why they are doing an investigation. They are gathering the info, determining if the potential classified was classified or not. And if that info being on her server caused a severe security incident or not. Then they have to determine her culpability.

After all that, if the FBI finds there was classified info, the severity of the leak was bad, and that Hillary is culpable criminally, she should be charged with a crime.

 

[Jhhnn]

You don't know how classification works still despite the links to them.

Let me go through this again. Her computer is on the public internet. Classified info is only on the SIPRNET which has zero connections to the public internet. There is no way to take direct classified info stored on the SIPRNET and move it to the public internet without an audit trail following the actions a mile long. SIPRNET computers are inside of SCIFs that have a long of security built in around them. Basically you can't bring any pretty much anything electronic into them without prior approval that is a PITA to do.

So there would be no direct classified info on her systems that came from classified systems. No one is claiming that. What people are stating is that classified info was talked about in emails that went through her server. It's not the actual classified info, but the meta info surrounding the classified info. None of that meta info is going to be labeled classified. Duh! Every person that has to work with classified info should know this as it is required training that is done constantly to reinforce that knowledge.

The problem is that by default meta info about classified info IS STILL CLASSIFIED! It takes a review board to determine if the meta info that surrounded a discussion about a classified topic is not classified. She doesn't have the authority by herself to deem that even as the SoS.

So, she can't use the internet to do her job w/o a lot of shameless backbiting, right?

And the meta-info boogeyman! The info around the info rigamarole. How talking about the super sekrit drone program is super sekrit because nobody knows about it or reports on it, right? What's the point of trying to classify information about information that's in the public domain in the first place?

Absurdity. Discussions at the highest level of govt are subject to classification only after the fact for the purposes of public disclosure. Which is what's happening with Hillary's emails as we speak. Well, with a lot of partisan leakage from Repub congress critters like Grassley who just have to take it to the press.

If Hillary discussing such things in her emails is improper, what the Hell do you call that?

 

[Jhhnn]

Also, for those that are asking the hyperbolic question of why she hasn't been charged with a crime if there was classified info found by the FBI....

The FBI has found potential classified info that is meta type info which they don't know if it is truly classified or not yet. That is why they are doing an investigation. They are gathering the info, determining if the potential classified was classified or not. And if that info being on her server caused a severe security incident or not. Then they have to determine her culpability.

After all that, if the FBI finds there was classified info, the severity of the leak was bad, and that Hillary is culpable criminally, she should be charged with a crime.

And if pigs had wings, they'd fly.

 

[BoberFett]

LOL, JHjhmhmhmnnn. How dare anyone attack his beloved Hillary! She's a saint who has never done anything wrong! Everything bad said about her is just the vast right wing conspiracy!

 

[ivwshane]

LOL, JHjhmhmhmnnn. How dare anyone attack his beloved Hillary! She's a saint who has never done anything wrong! Everything bad said about her is just the vast right wing conspiracy!

Well if we go by precedence, yes, there is a pretty good chance it's nothing other than a right wing conspiracy.

To see it for what it is all you have to do is ask what this has to do with benghazi (you know, the investigation that repubs cared so dearly about).

 

[werepossum]

You don't know how classification works still despite the links to them.

Let me go through this again. Her computer is on the public internet. Classified info is only on the SIPRNET which has zero connections to the public internet. There is no way to take direct classified info stored on the SIPRNET and move it to the public internet without an audit trail following the actions a mile long. SIPRNET computers are inside of SCIFs that have a long of security built in around them. Basically you can't bring any pretty much anything electronic into them without prior approval that is a PITA to do.

So there would be no direct classified info on her systems that came from classified systems. No one is claiming that. What people are stating is that classified info was talked about in emails that went through her server. It's not the actual classified info, but the meta info surrounding the classified info. None of that meta info is going to be labeled classified. Duh! Every person that has to work with classified info should know this as it is required training that is done constantly to reinforce that knowledge.

The problem is that by default meta info about classified info IS STILL CLASSIFIED! It takes a review board to determine if the meta info that surrounded a discussion about a classified topic is not classified. She doesn't have the authority by herself to deem that even as the SoS.

He knows how it works in his mind, which is that any powerful Democrat in good standing is automatically fighting the good fight and must never be questioned.

Also, for those that are asking the hyperbolic question of why she hasn't been charged with a crime if there was classified info found by the FBI....

The FBI has found potential classified info that is meta type info which they don't know if it is truly classified or not yet. That is why they are doing an investigation. They are gathering the info, determining if the potential classified was classified or not. And if that info being on her server caused a severe security incident or not. Then they have to determine her culpability.

After all that, if the FBI finds there was classified info, the severity of the leak was bad, and that Hillary is culpable criminally, she should be charged with a crime.

Problem with that for the Pubbies is that our side has done much the same thing. Some of the laws are new, but many have been in force (and largely ignored) for decades. That's why you will hear many calls for investigation and many condemnations, but probably not many calls for her being charged.

 

[Jhhnn]

LOL, JHjhmhmhmnnn. How dare anyone attack his beloved Hillary! She's a saint who has never done anything wrong! Everything bad said about her is just the vast right wing conspiracy!

I simply question the validity of the usual right wing conspiracy theory raving & astroturfed speculative distortion presented as fact.

It's only about Hillary because they make it about Hillary ATM. Formerly, it's been about a lot of things- birtherism, fast & furious, IRS & Be-fucking-ghazi, all of which never were more than jack & shit blended into a concoction pleasing to irrational thinkers. The loyal base is like Charlie Brown letting Lucy con him into thinking she'll ever let him kick the football. Over and over again, like they were born yesterday.

 

[Jhhnn]

He knows how it works in his mind, which is that any powerful Democrat in good standing is automatically fighting the good fight and must never be questioned.

Gross mis- characterization. I claim the same right & responsibility for any SoS including Hillary's immediate predecessors who did much the same.

 

[Angry Irishman]

So, she can't use the internet to do her job w/o a lot of shameless backbiting, right?

And the meta-info boogeyman! The info around the info rigamarole. How talking about the super sekrit drone program is super sekrit because nobody knows about it or reports on it, right? What's the point of trying to classify information about information that's in the public domain in the first place?

Absurdity. Discussions at the highest level of govt are subject to classification only after the fact for the purposes of public disclosure. Which is what's happening with Hillary's emails as we speak. Well, with a lot of partisan leakage from Repub congress critters like Grassley who just have to take it to the press.

If Hillary discussing such things in her emails is improper, what the Hell do you call that?

You're really digging deep now....face it, if she were an evil righty you'd sing a different tune.

 

[Fern]

You are largely mistaken.
-snip-
Just because 22M have been recovered it doesn't mean they were all recovered.

From your link:

The Bush White House email controversy surfaced in 2007 during the controversy involving the dismissal of eight U.S. attorneys. Congressional requests for administration documents while investigating the dismissals of the U.S. attorneys required the Bush administration to reveal that not all internal White House emails were available, because they were sent via a non-government domain hosted on an email server not controlled by the federal government. Conducting governmental business in this manner is a possible violation of the Presidential Records Act of 1978, and the Hatch Act.[1] Over 5 million emails may have been lost or deleted.[2][3] Greg Palast claims to have come up with 500 of the Karl Rove lost emails, leading to damaging allegations.[4] In 2009, it was announced that as many as 22 million emails may have been deleted.[5]

It appears that 22 million was the upper limit on missing emails.

From a site noted in your link:

According to the AP, soon-to-be-heroic technicians have uncovered 22 million email messages from the George W. Bush administration—far more than the Bush White House said they'd lost in the first place.

http://gizmodo.com/5426338/re-re-re...illion-lost-bush-white-house-emails-recovered

In short, there do not appear to be unrecovered emails.

Fern

-snip-
When Hillary does the same thing on a personal scale that Repub predecessors did on a much more massive scale, 700 times as large, she's got Hell to pay from the ravers who give the Bush clan a complete pass. It's beyond shameless partisanship over yet another in a long string of trumped up scandals.

No.

Does federal law prohibit use of govt property for political party purposes?
If it does than some in the WH, either Bush's or Obama's, would be forced to use another server for political activities.

Are you claiming I'm incorrect in my basic understanding of the law?

If I'm not, then either the Dems in the Obama admin are doing the same thing the Repubs did in the Bush WH - using the DNC server for party business. If not, then they are either violating the law or have zero Dem Party business. The latter I simply don't believe.

What Hillary did was unique. I've never heard of any other govt official establishing their own email server to conduct official business. None, ever. If you have examples pls link.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Incorrect. As SoS she declared the information non-classified which is how it stays if & until reclassified later. Any SoS can do that, and it seems likely that only another SoS or the President or their designee can make such information classified.

1. You keep making this claim but I have seen no link etc to verify this claim of yours. Could you provide one pls? (If you did already and I missed it my apologies.)

2. The State Dept, including HRC, would be receiving classified info from a number of sources such as the DoD, NSA and CIA etc. So:

A. Are you saying that such info as developed outside the State Dept and not under HRC's control can still be classified or declassified as HRC sees fit? That the SoS has that type of power?

I have a problem believing the SoS has authority over what the CIA, DoD or NSA can deem classified. Or are you saying that:

B. The CIA, DoD or NSA never sent any classified info to the State Dept.

If one boils this down, your argument appears to be that the SoS is unencumbered by any protocols and/are laws pertaining to the custody and treatment of classified info. I don't find that believable.

Fern

 

[ivwshane]

Just because it's uncommon to you doesn't make it unique:

http://dailysignal.com/2015/03/08/h...ory-using-personal-email-government-business/

Feel free to ignore the commentary and go straight for the citations.

From your link:



It appears that 22 million was the upper limit on missing emails.

From a site noted in your link:



http://gizmodo.com/5426338/re-re-re...illion-lost-bush-white-house-emails-recovered

In short, there do not appear to be unrecovered emails.

Fern



No.

Does federal law prohibit use of govt property for political party purposes?
If it does than some in the WH, either Bush's or Obama's, would be forced to use another server for political activities.

Are you claiming I'm incorrect in my basic understanding of the law?

If I'm not, then either the Dems in the Obama admin are doing the same thing the Repubs did in the Bush WH - using the DNC server for party business. If not, then they are either violating the law or have zero Dem Party business. The latter I simply don't believe.

What Hillary did was unique. I've never heard of any other govt official establishing their own email server to conduct official business. None, ever. If you have examples pls link.

Fern

 

[Jhhnn]

1. You keep making this claim but I have seen no link etc to verify this claim of yours. Could you provide one pls? (If you did already and I missed it my apologies.)

2. The State Dept, including HRC, would be receiving classified info from a number of sources such as the DoD, NSA and CIA etc. So:

A. Are you saying that such info as developed outside the State Dept and not under HRC's control can still be classified or declassified as HRC sees fit? That the SoS has that type of power?

I have a problem believing the SoS has authority over what the CIA, DoD or NSA can deem classified. Or are you saying that:

B. The CIA, DoD or NSA never sent any classified info to the State Dept.

If one boils this down, your argument appears to be that the SoS is unencumbered by any protocols and/are laws pertaining to the custody and treatment of classified info. I don't find that believable.

Fern

Obfuscation.

1. post #337

2. When previously classified information is transferred to the State Dept it is done via a secure network & marked as such. You already know that. When information arrives through other channels, it cannot be classified until later. You know, like anybody's inbox who works for the State Dept. In that context, the SoS has the discretion to treat any of their own inbox information as non-classified because it did not come from a classified network. It's raw information not yet vetted or processed for public release.

 

[Bowfinger]

You don't know how classification works still despite the links to them.

Let me go through this again. Her computer is on the public internet. Classified info is only on the SIPRNET which has zero connections to the public internet. There is no way to take direct classified info stored on the SIPRNET and move it to the public internet without an audit trail following the actions a mile long. SIPRNET computers are inside of SCIFs that have a long of security built in around them. Basically you can't bring any pretty much anything electronic into them without prior approval that is a PITA to do.

So there would be no direct classified info on her systems that came from classified systems. No one is claiming that.

On the contrary, there are a lot of people claiming that, either directly or through insinuation. That includes people in this thread. That's one of the many bits of disinformation floating around that derail attempts at informed discussion.

What people are stating is that classified info was talked about in emails that went through her server. It's not the actual classified info, but the meta info surrounding the classified info. None of that meta info is going to be labeled classified. Duh! Every person that has to work with classified info should know this as it is required training that is done constantly to reinforce that knowledge.

The problem is that by default meta info about classified info IS STILL CLASSIFIED! It takes a review board to determine if the meta info that surrounded a discussion about a classified topic is not classified. She doesn't have the authority by herself to deem that even as the SoS.

Yes, and that is a problem regardless of whether Clinton used personal email or State email. The DoS email network is not secure and is not appropriate for classified discussion.

 

[rudder]

Well if we go by precedence, yes, there is a pretty good chance it's nothing other than a right wing conspiracy.

To see it for what it is all you have to do is ask what this has to do with benghazi (you know, the investigation that repubs cared so dearly about).

That some pretty damn powerful conspiracy right there. I mean sneaking a mail server into Clinton's home... how the fuck could anyone do that? That is straight out of a Tom Clancy book!

 

[LightPattern]

Just because it's uncommon to you doesn't make it unique:

http://dailysignal.com/2015/03/08/h...ory-using-personal-email-government-business/

Feel free to ignore the commentary and go straight for the citations.

You just don't bother to read through your own links:

Security Questions
Experts say it’s not only a question of whether federal officials are trying to skirt Freedom of Information law that requires release of public documents upon request; there are also security concerns. From that standpoint, Clinton’s example may be the most concerning.
Government Executive says security experts are “still scratching their heads about why Clinton would have taken the unusual step of setting up a home-managed email account, a move that potentially made her messages vulnerable to foreign hackers keen on spying on the U.S.’s top diplomat.”

“Computer-security analysts … warned that emails sent across separate servers—instead of delivered entirely within government servers—posed greater risk of being intercepted or spied on.” —@GovExec
​

A high-ranking government official familiar with the potential security risks says Clinton’s case raises many security issues.
“There are times when the location of the secretary of state and other cabinet members is sensitive” or even classified, said the official, “especially, if they are traveling with [the president].”
A smartphone using a commercial Internet service provider would theoretically broadcast its location most of the time, over an unauthorized network, including when that location is classified, the official said.
The official also noted that it’s not known whether Clinton carried her phone into areas where classified discussions took place. “If she did, that [could be] a security violation.”

Even Clinton's campaign team is finding it difficult to link to credible sources that don't call her suspicious motives & methods into question:

Clinton's shaky email defenses

Another [incriminating] link, this time from PolitiFact, explained that “the timeline generally supports Clinton’s contention. ... She deleted emails in fall 2014 after she was asked to turn over email related to Benghazi. The official subpoena didn’t come until March 2015,” but…

• “Clinton’s choice of words is still misleading, especially to people who haven’t followed the controversy. ‘I’ve never had a subpoena’ implies that up to the day of the (Jul 7 CNN) interview, she has not received a subpoena related to her emails, which is incorrect. Additionally, in the months when she was sifting through these emails, there was a pending formal request — though not an official subpoena — for the emails. So she knew at the time that the State Department and the Congress Benghazi Committee wanted to look at them.”

The fact that the Clinton campaign has been forced to cite websites that conclude the candidate did everything to mislead, confuse and otherwise obscure the truth, short of outright falsehoods, suggests there's more to this story than a lot of nonsense.