The key remains the phrase from the US Constitution of "natural born citizen" and its meaning. The abstract from a paper written by a law professor at the University of Arizona explains the opposing view.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
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It's only debunked if you wish it so. You might as well stamp your feet hard, stick your finger in your your ears and yell "Nananananana! I can't hear you!"
Or maybe others (like me) should? (Because the MSM is ignoring this as well?)
While I have no reason to believe any thing of the sort will be taken seriously, I have lived abroad, been married to foreign women and had to deal with these rules. They are very real, and complicated, if not irrational
But someome is lying; about that there is no doubt. It can't be Obama unless he claims to know. He was too young to remember where, and under what circumstances he was born (if he claims to know otherwise he is clearly full of BS)
I say someone is lying because either the lawyer(s) filing the case (who have cited certain facts - allegations are subjective, facts are not), and/or Obama's relatives in Kenya (who claim he was born there) are lying. Obama's assertions are irrelevant - if he makes any.
The birth certificate factcheck.org has *certified* is a *copy* printed out from a database in Hawaii. It is not the original with handwriting from the attending physician and nurses, It's a copy issued by an unknown person from a non-secure source (some hospital computer) database.
Importantly, Hawaii offers more than one birth certificate. You can actually call in and claim a birth certificate and get one (non-hospital birth); this is in addition to the regular birth certificate other states have.
I have been unable to determine if the *copy* printed from the database is drawn from a regular birth certificate or a *call in* birth certificate as allowed under HW law. I cannot determine if there would be a difference in what is printed out of the hospital database, the fact this is not even addressed or consider by factcheck.org should speak volumes (I.e. massive lameness on their behalf).
So, all factcheck.org did was examine the (copy) document to ensure it was from the hospital's database, nothing more. So, as far as we know some minimum wage person printed out a document from an unsecure, privately owned, computer database. (I would like to point out that I challenge the system, nothing else. BTW: Don't cite the FEC, all they all get for proof of your qualifications is your signature that you say you do.)
If they (the hospital) printed out a statement saying Saddan had WMD that were moved to Syria before our invasion would you be so quick to believe them?
I will also note that Obama's Kenyan relatives claim that he was born there.
Notwithstanding the above birth place discrepancy, the lawsuit lists as fact that Obama travelled to Pakistan on an Indonesian passport when he was 20 yrs old. While this may not mean much to you people, I was living abroad during those times and married to (actually still am, just not the same woman) a non-US citizen. One had to be a bit careful about such matters or risk forfeiting their US citizenship. To get another passport means another citizenship. Back then, US rules stated if you took another passport (citizenship) you immediately lost your US citizenship.
It's not forged, it's just not *real*, or official in any meaningful way. Mind if I print you a statement showing I'm worth millions from my computer? That's about as *official* as the documnet factcheck.org examined.
This kind of lame crap wouldn't get you get a bank loan, but it's good enough to qualify for Prez of the USA?
In the ordinary couse of life, where it's unlikely that either parent ever left the USA (like 99.99% of US citizens) this wouldn't even be a question, but no one disputes his mother was in Kenya immediately (if not longer) prior to his birth and his father was a non-citizen, thus it's a reasonable question.
You might not like the rules, but that's a completely different matter.
While I do not know what the answer is, I do consider it a legitimate question that should not be pooh-poohed (as all questions about him seem to be).
Even if true (non-citizens due to complicated citizenship rules) I do not make any claim about how this might impact him serving in the role as Prez. I merely claim, that unlike those who have belittled me and others, this is a valid question.
Oddly, those who love studies, don't wanna see one about this issue.
Cliffs: Factcheck.org is totally lame on this matter. I suppose not much more can be expected given US peoples' unfamiliarity with such matters (citizenship rules)
Fern
There are a couple problems with the above. First off, yes he traveled to Indonesia and Pakistan in his 20s, but aside for internet claims that it was an Indonesian passport, there's no evidence or facts from reputable sources to suggest that it wasn't on a US passport.
Second, the laws of a foreign country don't affect someone's US citizenship. To lose it, there needs to be intent and you effectively need to renounce your US citizenship. Actions that merely imply something aren't good enough.
As for the birth certificate, the image the Obama campaign mailed out shows a document the the seal of the state of Hawaii apparently from the Department of Health there. People have contacted the DOH in Hawaii and a spokesman said it was a valid Hawaii state birth certificate.
I don't know more proof you need beyond a document verified by the state issuing authority.
Ozoned
Diamond Member
- Mar 22, 2004
- 5,578
- 0
- 0
To loose it, you have to have it. You don't have to be born in hawaii to get a hawaii birth certificate. You combine this with laws on citizenship, it draws questions about Obamas citizenship status. It is a nuance in the law, but the law is the law. That is what Bergs lawsuit addresses. You might try reading it.
How about instead of "drawing questions" you make a real argument? You guys are as bad as the 9/11 conspiracy folks...you have no facts, just pointless questions that are intentionally designed to be very difficult to disprove. Could Obama not be a natural born US citizen? Sure, anything's possible. But since all the evidence suggests he IS a natural born citizen, and there is no evidence to suggest he is not, I don't find your view really very convincing.
Just like with the 9/11 conspiracy theories, I think it's helpful to apply Occam's Razor to this situation. On the one hand you have the possibility that Obama is a natural born US citizen, born in Hawaii, just like he claims and just like the evidence so far suggests, and meets the qualifications for being President. On the other hand you have the possibility that he is NOT a natural born US citizen and that his claimed citizenship status is part of a conspiracy to get him into the White House despite not meeting the requirements. This argument is ONLY being supported by people with a political axe to grind, and despite months of effort has been unable to make very little actual legal headway or come up with any sort of convincing proof that Obama is not what he says he is. Despite the fact that news like that would be among the biggest stories of all time, and despite the fact that this conspiracy would have to involve quite a number of different people, AND despite the fact that such secrets are rarely kept hidden, nobody has been able to disprove Obama's version of events. Now, all else being equal, which seems like a more likely explanation?
That isn't to say that you don't bring up some imaginative alternative explanations, but unless you can PROVE them, it's just political noise.
It IS a valid question, but it has been answered already. You might not LIKE the answer, or you may not "trust" the answer, but since people (despite an enormous effort) seem unable to provide another one, I'm going to go with the official version of events. Your various explanations of why his birth certificate might not be valid are totally irrelevant since you have no evidence to suggest those alternative explanations are true. Based on your logic, the US citizenship of all of us, including John McCain and Sarah Palin, I might add, can be called into question.
Ozoned
Diamond Member
- Mar 22, 2004
- 5,578
- 0
- 0
Has already been, on the senate floor, and ruled on, and Mccain produced every document asked for without hesitation. Is Obama somehow above the same scrutiny? Obama has a welled oiled campaign, and has an answer for everything thrown at him before it is thrown. What is his hesitation here? He DOES obviously know the law.
Actually, McCain has not made a copy of his birth certificate available to the public. The only one of it I've been able to find online is found on very partisan websites and apparently shows his birth as taking place in Colon Hospital (and not on a US military base). On a side note, being born on a US base in a foreign country doesn't count as being born on US soil. If that were the case, any pregnant Iraqi woman would be able to confer US citizenship onto her child pretty easily.
Also, the Senate is not the final arbiter of whether or not he can legitimately serve as president -- the Supreme Court is. The Senate even described their resolution as non-binding.
Obama's grandma confirms Kenyan birth
Just want to hear what you guys think.
Merged
Anandtech Senior Moderator
Red Dawn
Just want to hear what you guys think.
Merged
Anandtech Senior Moderator
Red Dawn
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2240848&enterthread=y
Must be a run on swastikas right about now...
Must be a run on swastikas right about now...
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
- 27,928
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- 106
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
And then Obama will have to step up with more legit proof of his birth certificate, thus making the smear machine look even sillier.
Anyway, at this point if he truly was born in Kenya, there's no way around it, he'd lose the election. Which is a shame, because as amdhunter said, I don't care if Obama was born in a north korean gulag at this stage. But then I'm not even a US citizen, so what do I know.
Anyway, at this point if he truly was born in Kenya, there's no way around it, he'd lose the election. Which is a shame, because as amdhunter said, I don't care if Obama was born in a north korean gulag at this stage. But then I'm not even a US citizen, so what do I know.
I think he meant the over-medication of children. People these days are too quick to get pills for anything. He may have overstated his feelings, but you have to agree that not everyone has ADD or Autism. The mighty dollar has a lot to do with what is going on in our world today. Greed has shown its ugly head on more than one front.
I do have to say I think Savage is nuts sometimes, but he is entertaining.
What does the show have to do with anything? If Savage says the sky is blue, does that mean it's not? I haven't followed this case closely, but if said tape does exist, I don't give a damn where the report originated. Rush, Hannity, don't care. This is serious if it has merit.
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