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Citizenship

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chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Awesome. But I pay my taxes and work, so what again do I need to do to be committed as Obama wants?

See, here's the thing: I already pay enough taxes for my work that I don't feel like paying more so the locals can buy Pepsi on their links card, the lady down the street on Section 8 can stay on it while she drives her Escalade, her baby daddy (well, one of them at least) can drive his Mercedes, and we can allow every illegal that can get here in (with a token amount sent back to just try again, likely successfully).

So when Obama asks for my commitment, I want to know what he means by that. Pulling at my heart strings doesn't cut it, because if I just blindly trust him and Pols in DC (and State, and local) to do whatever with my money.....well, I can already see firsthand how they're misusing it.

In my world, I'm already doing for my country. The poorer and less advantaged are paying zero into the country and taking from me. I don't need to demonize them, they're doing a fine jobs of that themselves.

Again: What did Obama mean by commitment?

Chuck
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,274
1,051
126
and citizenship also requires that we respect and follow the laws of this country. and yet there are many who cry for citizenship and rights but have decided that they should be exempt from following our laws. how is that compatible with the above?
This. Very well said.

As a LEGAL immigrant, I and countless other LEGALS are very upset of the nerve of those ILLEGALS that dare to demand the same right as us yet would NOT want to follow the same demand/requirement/sacrifices. Same feeling toward politicians from both sides that are pandering to said ILLEGALS for vote with the thin veil of "compassion".
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,210
126
Commitment, ahh.

The willingness to follow another's vision at a price they set without your agreement.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Commitment, ahh.

The willingness to follow another's vision at a price they set without your agreement.
Exactly. I'd like a clear and non-wiggly definition of what Obama means by this. We don't need another 'you didn't build that' spin by Dems, I'd like something actually concrete this time (if that is at all possible from a Pol speech, given how vaguely they like to weasel speak).

I'll make the question quite clear so there is no misunderstanding: What more commitment does Obama want from people paying their legal burden of federal taxes and following the laws of the land, given that these people are not willing to increase their financial burden?

I am truly and seriously interested in what more the POTUS wants from me...

Chuck
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,210
126
Exactly. I'd like a clear and non-wiggly definition of what Obama means by this. We don't need another 'you didn't build that' spin by Dems, I'd like something actually concrete this time (if that is at all possible from a Pol speech, given how vaguely they like to weasel speak).

I'll make the question quite clear so there is no misunderstanding: What more commitment does Obama want from people paying their legal burden of federal taxes and following the laws of the land, given that these people are not willing to increase their financial burden?

I am truly and seriously interested in what more the POTUS wants from me...

Chuck
At one level I understand the appeal for a more civic minded society. I can accept the notion of a moral duty to do so. The concern is that too often such speeches are a transitional tool of justification. Obama reelected is a politician without concerns. If he is to make a lasting mark, this is his time to do so and I don't trust his ego.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
At one level I understand the appeal for a more civic minded society. I can accept the notion of a moral duty to do so. The concern is that too often such speeches are a transitional tool of justification. Obama reelected is a politician without concerns. If he is to make a lasting mark, this is his time to do so and I don't trust his ego.
I've said before, I will gladly sign up to pay more taxes that go solely to the national debt once DC passes a Balanced Budget ammendment, and passes something ungetaroundable that they will not take the budget past $2T for the next say, 10 years.

If they could actually be trusted to hold themselves to $2T, and actually take the extra tax revenue and pay down the national debt, you'd have Americans buying into a commit to pay down their country debt.

Americans are balking at signing up for Pols BS not because there is a black POTUS, but because of the financial crash that happened right before the black POTUS took office. It shook the country, and part of that shaking woke people up that maybe we need to try living within our means.

I'm committed to that personally, and I have not seen any reason yet why the Pols in DC can't be as well. When they've demonstrated they can be trusted, The People will trust them. So far, that has not happened...

Chuck
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,670
6
0
But we also believe in something called citizenship – a word at the very heart of our founding, at the very essence of our democracy; the idea that this country only works when we accept certain obligations to one another, and to future generations.
He is 100% correct. Unfortunately the Democratic Party has clearly established that only certain people have obligations to other.

And that certain privileged groups (women, minorities, poor, etc) have no obligation to society, but society is obligated to bail them out for their poor life choices.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
44,274
3,956
136
He is 100% correct. Unfortunately the Democratic Party has clearly established that only certain people have obligations to other.

And that certain privileged groups (women, minorities, poor, etc) have no obligation to society, but society is obligated to bail them out for their poor life choices.
Yes, 100% correct:

But we don’t think that government is the source of all our problems – any more than are welfare recipients, or corporations, or unions, or immigrants, or gays, or any other group we’re told to blame for our troubles.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,670
6
0
But we don’t think that government is the source of all our problems – any more than are welfare recipients, or corporations, or unions, or immigrants, or gays, or any other group we’re told to blame for our troubles.
I do not think anyone believes that any of those groups is responsible for ALL of our problems.

Even Republicans blame government, welfare recipients, unions, ILLEGAL immigrants, gays, feminists, etc.

If anything Democrats are closer to only blaming one group of people for all our problems ie the 1%
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,155
9
81
Awesome. But I pay my taxes and work, so what again do I need to do to be committed as Obama wants?

See, here's the thing: I already pay enough taxes for my work that I don't feel like paying more so the locals can buy Pepsi on their links card, the lady down the street on Section 8 can stay on it while she drives her Escalade, her baby daddy (well, one of them at least) can drive his Mercedes, and we can allow every illegal that can get here in (with a token amount sent back to just try again, likely successfully).

So when Obama asks for my commitment, I want to know what he means by that. Pulling at my heart strings doesn't cut it, because if I just blindly trust him and Pols in DC (and State, and local) to do whatever with my money.....well, I can already see firsthand how they're misusing it.

In my world, I'm already doing for my country. The poorer and less advantaged are paying zero into the country and taking from me. I don't need to demonize them, they're doing a fine jobs of that themselves.

Again: What did Obama mean by commitment?

Chuck
/this

give me facts and figures..and stick to them.

Commitment? from what i can see i have more then a large portion of the US. i pay taxes, raise my kids, I make sure they are safe and have a stable home with food, electricity and meet the needs they have. We volunteer with the Girl scouts, we give to very few charities we agree with and help those in the area who need it.

I am not on section 8, food stamps, wic, or any other government handout.

When the rest of the US is even with that he can bitch i'm not doing more.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,274
1,051
126
From a poster in a Yahoo article:

"The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living."​
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
44,274
3,956
136
I'll make the question quite clear so there is no misunderstanding: What more commitment does Obama want from people paying their legal burden of federal taxes and following the laws of the land, given that these people are not willing to increase their financial burden?
JFK answered you, and every American, nearly 50 years ago. He said you were asking the right question, but with the wrong damn attitude.

It's not, "Wahhhhh, what more do they want?"

It's, "What more can I do?"

Ask what you can do for your country.

... given that these people are not willing to increase their financial burden?
Obama is asking that those making over $250,000 a year to contribute marginally more, yet far less than they did during the glory days of American economic prosperity, under Democrats and Republicans alike.

But if by "these people" you mean the middle and working class, then Obama is not looking to increase their financial burden. In fact, he'd like to give the 99% more of a break.

Warren Buffet is ultra smart and ultra successful. He's more than willing to give back to his country.

If anything, taxes for the lower and middle class and maybe even the upper middle class should even probably be cut further. But I think that people at the high end - people like myself - should be paying a lot more in taxes. We have it better than we've ever had it.
-- Warren Buffett
I just think that - when a country needs more income and we do, we're only taking in 15 percent of GDP, I mean, that - that - when a country needs more income, they should get it from the people that have it.
--Warren Buffett
The Republicans, otoh, have blocked any bill that wouldn't preserve those Bush era tax cuts for the rich.

The rich are always going to say that, you know, just give us more money and we'll go out and spend more and then it will all trickle down to the rest of you. But that has not worked the last 10 years, and I hope the American public is catching on.
--Warren Buffett
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,678
3,232
126
Yes, Citizenship!

Give 'em hell, Barry!
But we also believe in something called citizenship – a word at the very heart of our founding, at the very essence of our democracy; the idea that this country only works when we accept certain obligations to one another, and to future generations.
Does that mean we belong to government? Obligation and all...
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,633
3,433
126
Does that mean we belong to government? Obligation and all...
No, the word was used to remind normal people of the obligations we have to each other as co-members, citizens of a free country to counteract the gravity that unexamined greed and self interest destroy. It is a concept that can reach only the healthy and cannot reach paranoid and fearful people, people who were so badly damaged as children that they were left with unquenchable psychological need. For them the terror that even greater psychological damage will befall them, that more of their soul will be stolen is so great that nothing can remind them of the gifts this great nation gives. The notion that one has a reciprocal relationship to the state to the vacuumized looks like a one way street. It can only sound like 'take take take from me and give give give to somebody else'. These are the poor among us, the ones from whom was stolen their mental health.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
But we don’t think that government is the source of all our problems – any more than are welfare recipients, or corporations, or unions, or immigrants, or gays, or any other group we’re told to blame for our troubles.
I agree with the sentiment of what he said, there's more than enough blame to go around, but don't Democrats tend to argue that the wealthy cause all of our troubles? That if only we didn't have the wealthy, the US would be a utopia? So in fact the Democrats do blame one particular group for everything that's wrong with the US.
 

Schmide

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2002
5,344
271
126
I agree with the sentiment of what he said, there's more than enough blame to go around, but don't Democrats tend to argue that the wealthy cause all of our troubles? That if only we didn't have the wealthy, the US would be a utopia? So in fact the Democrats do blame one particular group for everything that's wrong with the US.
No that's a made up argument, more republican us against them decisive politics.

Keep up the GOP talking points.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
Yes, I thought that was an especially important point. It directly and rather pointedly rebuked the RNC mantra that life is all about greed and self interest. That's one of the changes in today's RNC I find most repugnant and most damaging to America. Republicans once recognized the importance of supporting one's community and building success while being a good citizen. Now they're all about enriching oneself today with no regard to how it affects others, no concern about ethics or morality.
Right, because your average Republican doesn't volunteer locally. Doesn't donate to food shelves. Doesn't drop money in the Salvation Army bucket. They all cackle like and swim in vats of money like Scrooge McDuck. :rolleyes;

Democrats damage their own message by attempting to paint ridiculous caricatures of their "enemy".
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
JFK answered you, and every American, nearly 50 years ago. He said you were asking the right question, but with the wrong damn attitude.

It's not, "Wahhhhh, what more do they want?"

It's, "What more can I do?"
My attitude is fine, it's the Gov that needs to change. I expect my Gov attitude to be, 'Ask not for more money to spend like a drunken sailor, but instead, Spend within the means*' If they can't do that, then F what they think of my attitude, trying to play a guilt trip on me so I can give them mo munney to play with. Sorry...not tricky enough, try again.

*See below

Obama is asking that those making over $250,000 a year to contribute marginally more, yet far less than they did during the glory days of American economic prosperity, under Democrats and Republicans alike.
Why would these people contribute more, so the Gov can just spend that much more? Why doesn't the Gov first spend within its means (and I'll pick 2 Trillion Dollars ((an almost unreal amount)) as the meaning of 'means'), then, when they've proved they can actually do that, then back to all of us on a progressive tax system and plead case for a raise in their income (with our money).

Who here is insane enough to give a crack addict (Gov with $16T+ deficit) who is already known to go steal crack from others (deficit spending) more crack (our money) in the hopes they'll quit and reform themselves (actually run a surplus budget so as to begin paying down the national debt)? <looks around...all eyes are downwards...no one raises hands> No one? Stunner.

But if by "these people" you mean the middle and working class, then Obama is not looking to increase their financial burden. In fact, he'd like to give the 99% more of a break.
Right, he's just willing to rack up massive debt and then when the masses start rebelling against that because of the 2008 economy shocker, plea for more money from the people who are left that can actually afford it. See crack analogy (which is spot on) above.

Warren Buffet is ultra smart and ultra successful. He's more than willing to give back to his country.
Outstanding. I must have missed the news where Warren cashed out of everything, and wrote a check to the Fed like he's been able to do for years now in excess of his tax obligation, to put his money where his mouth is. What's that? He still has all his money? Still flapping his mouth? Another stunner...

The Republicans, otoh, have blocked any bill that wouldn't preserve those Bush era tax cuts for the rich.
Of course they have, they have their own masters just like the Dems. When you can get the Gov (Fed, State, local) to start living within their means, then you'll get me onboard for a tax raise. Prior to that, I do not care what excuse, what sob story, what pull at the heart string spin is used to try and extract more money from anyone (poor, middle class, or rich) because the Pols have failed to do their jobs.

Chuck
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
JFK answered you, and every American, nearly 50 years ago. He said you were asking the right question, but with the wrong damn attitude.

It's not, "Wahhhhh, what more do they want?"

It's, "What more can I do?"






Obama is asking that those making over $250,000 a year to contribute marginally more, yet far less than they did during the glory days of American economic prosperity, under Democrats and Republicans alike.

But if by "these people" you mean the middle and working class, then Obama is not looking to increase their financial burden. In fact, he'd like to give the 99% more of a break.

Warren Buffet is ultra smart and ultra successful. He's more than willing to give back to his country.





The Republicans, otoh, have blocked any bill that wouldn't preserve those Bush era tax cuts for the rich.
Did JFKs speech have a footnote saying that it only applied to the 1%?

What are the 99% doing for the country? Sounds like right now the 99% is doing a whole lot of asking for things from their country, and not quite as much doing for the country.

Shouldn't the 99% pay more taxes as well? Why aren't you asking what you can do? Your whole post talks about people other than you doing things. Very disingenuous.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
No that's a made up argument, more republican us against them decisive politics.

Keep up the GOP talking points.
Then tell me, who is at fault for our current situation?

Democrats blame bankers, not homebuyers for the market crash.

Democrats blame corporations, not consumers for moving jobs overseas.

Democrats blame the wealthy, not the middle class for not paying enough taxes to support the many government programs that everyone wants.

From everything I read here it sounds to me like Democrats do in fact like to blame particular groups for everything.
 

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