I do find it fascinating that some people cling to the fantasy of the military as being 'representative' of general US demographics.
Pat Tillman was likely the rare fatality in that he was college-educated and not hurting for money. In fact, the only place where college-educated, upper-middle class servicepeople are well represented is amongst the officers. And again . . . they aren't the ones dying in Iraq.
The all-volunteer military works in the context of civilian leadership with insight, foresight, and basic common sense. Once it became obvious that Iraq wasn't going . . . well . . . somebody should have made plans for how to sustain a LIKELY protracted US presence in the country. It didn't happen b/c the civilians in charge didn't care about 3-4 tours, stop-loss, or strangling the Guard/Reserves.
Sadly from the comments of enablers that have posted previously . . . some Americans (both natural born and snowbirds) don't care, either.
Pat Tillman was likely the rare fatality in that he was college-educated and not hurting for money. In fact, the only place where college-educated, upper-middle class servicepeople are well represented is amongst the officers. And again . . . they aren't the ones dying in Iraq.
The all-volunteer military works in the context of civilian leadership with insight, foresight, and basic common sense. Once it became obvious that Iraq wasn't going . . . well . . . somebody should have made plans for how to sustain a LIKELY protracted US presence in the country. It didn't happen b/c the civilians in charge didn't care about 3-4 tours, stop-loss, or strangling the Guard/Reserves.
Sadly from the comments of enablers that have posted previously . . . some Americans (both natural born and snowbirds) don't care, either.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
So now they want you to surrender your life to the state along with other sociopathic behavior, such as murder and robbery, repackaged as "war" and "taxation" and touted as our collective moral duty. This country is totally aborgating freedom and liberty founders gave us.:thumbsdown:
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
You don't find it ironic the country with the Bill of Rights, founded on individual liberty and freedom with 'life, liberty & happiness' in it's preamble and thoughout storied history wants to negate man's fundamental right to life and that the state may claim his life by compelling him to sacrifice it in battle?
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
I refuse to fight a half assed war. Not using the weapons smart men have given us.
Refuse to play by 19th century combat techniques and be sitting ducks for a crude IDE or sniper round.
Refuse to be a human shield in the Sunni-Shi?a rift now 1300 years old.
Refuse to fight a war when the POTUS can't even identify the threat facing our time. But instead calls, Islam, "The Religion of Peace" - dispite Muslims killing Hindus in Kashmir or Mumbai or Delhi, or to kill Buddhist villagers in southern Thailand, or Christians in Nigeria or southern Sudan or southern Philippines, or to kill Hindus, Buddhists, and Christians in Bangladesh or Indonesia, or Americans or Isralies or Germans or.... and the targeted and well-financed campaigns of Da'wa in the West and demographic conquest of the West.
Call me when you're serious - otherwise you can get some dumb broke inner city kid or country bumpkin to piss away my tax monies. Least it's not my life being lead by the blind.
I am sure there are people who would not be willing to go to war for their country, and one might be justified in calling them cowards. However, I think most people would simply rather not be forced into a war they do not believe in, which is where the main opposition to the draft comes from.
BoberFett
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
- 81
I've served you goddam fvcking moron. I enlisted and served in the early 90s. That's more than you anybody can say for a sniveling little coward like you, content to criticize from behind a keyboard. Have you ever volunteered to serve in anything? Peace corp? Military? Soup kitchen? Or are you just a chicken sh1t loser that isn't willing to put your money where your mouth is. My bet is on chicken sh1t loser, you haven't got the balls to actually take any action. I'm sure the closest you've ever come to testicles is when you peek at the boys in the locker room.
Oh, and are you ever going to figure out the difference between Republicans and libertarians or are you going to spend the rest of your life and ignorant fvcking moron?
K1052
Elite Member
- Aug 21, 2003
- 53,637
- 48,198
- 136
Originally posted by: Perknose
I would.
And . . . socialists wet dream my ass, Tom. :|
Boo, there's a socialist under your bed.
I fully support asking every American, no exceptions, to serve their country, to give back to the United States of America with the one thing that levels us all, two years out of their own life in service, military or other.
Not pointing to you, Tom, but I hate fvcking chickhawks like 5 deferment Cheney and champagne division Bush.
How do you feel about them?
The problem is that you aren't asking, you are obligating via the law. I assume failure to partcipate in your obligated service (military or civilian) would result in fines and imprisonment. This is a clear violation of the 13th Amendment and dosen't stand a chance to get past the Supreme Court. The Constitution would have to be amended and I really doubt 3/4ths of the states will consent to this.
This thread just goes to show that the left in this country is every bit as willing to trample your constitutional rights as the right is, they just chose to go about it in different ways.
C'mon lets stop beating up on the chickenhawks as they do serve an important purpose--both the keyboard companies and La-Z-Boy would go into bankruptcy if they were shipped off 
The educated are the exception. While I was in the Army (10 years ago), I knew of few who already had degrees, and there were just a handful working on degrees while serving. I already had an AAS which was more than most senior NCO's had. And even less had Bachelor of Art degrees they had picked up through the colleges working with the military. So for the enlisted members education was the exception.
I can't say I approve of a draft, but I don't believe you can have a nation involved in a war like this without having the population invested in a war effort. That is something this administration has failed at (miserably). Bring on a draft and watch the chicken hawks squeal!!
Corn
Diamond Member
- Nov 12, 1999
- 6,390
- 29
- 91
Originally posted by: Perknose
I would.
And . . . socialists wet dream my ass, Tom. :|
Boo, there's a socialist under your bed.
I fully support asking every American, no exceptions, to serve their country, to give back to the United States of America with the one thing that levels us all, two years out of their own life in service, military or other.
Not pointing to you, Tom, but I hate fvcking chickhawks like 5 deferment Cheney and champagne division Bush.
How do you feel about them?
One third of my income goes to Uncle Sam, therefore one third of my labor is spent "giving back to the United States of America". I've paid income taxes for the past 25 years. That puts me at about 8.25 years and counting in indentured servitude to the USA.
Finally! The children of the wealthy and priveleged will have to serve in Iraq! I wonder how Bush's true believers will feel about the war then?
My God, institute the draft and kill the military. It's quite simple, really. The US military today is the most professional and capable military force ever fielded in the history of the world. The reason it is that way is because we have an all-volunteer force that WANTS to be in uniform and WANTS to perform to the highest level possible. Since it is smaller, it can be trained to a very high level.
Institute a draft, and you have a much larger group of recruits, yes, but also an enormous percentage of them who DO NOT WANT to be there and who will respond to training poorly and will in all likelihood perform to a low level because of a lack of motivation. Even IF they do perform well, they will not be trained to the same level because we cannot maintain the current high standards of training while pipelining enormous numbers of conscripts.
The end result will be a dilution of talent, an increase in body counts, a VAST increase in required expenditures for every service provided by the military (medical, legal, logistics, training, housing, etc.), and an overall decrease in the usefulness of the US military.
What's amusing is that people here are blaming the Republicans for not serving, yet the military as a whole is somewhere around 80% Republican -- who isn't serving again? The liberal elites from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, and the like are flocking to the military, right? They lean which way in the political spectrum?
Ok, last item. Roll call here: Which of the following (supporters of the draft, from above) served in the military?
1) conjur
2) dmcowen674
3) d3n
4) her209
5) Termagant
6) International Machine Consortium
7) Steeplerot
8) BaliBabyDoc
9) Perknose
Here's a list of alumni just from my alma mater who have been killed so far in OIF/OEF. One was my classmate; I knew another quite well from my time at VMI; and two I knew of but did not know personally. Another classmate of mine hit an IED and had his Humvee flipped but fortunately did not suffer any serious injuries. STFU about officers not being killed, you idiot.
Mr. Gregory Wright '95
Capt. Lowell T. Miller '93
Capt. James C. Edge '96
Capt. Luke C. Wullenwaber '02
Major Paul R. Syverson '96
Sergeant Ryan E. Doltz '00
Lieutenant Joshua C. Hurley '01
Capt. John Robert Teal '94
Lieutenant Commander David Lucian Williams '91
Mr. Charles W. Mathers '62
Here's a quote for you from the Christian Science Monitor:
Institute a draft, and you have a much larger group of recruits, yes, but also an enormous percentage of them who DO NOT WANT to be there and who will respond to training poorly and will in all likelihood perform to a low level because of a lack of motivation. Even IF they do perform well, they will not be trained to the same level because we cannot maintain the current high standards of training while pipelining enormous numbers of conscripts.
The end result will be a dilution of talent, an increase in body counts, a VAST increase in required expenditures for every service provided by the military (medical, legal, logistics, training, housing, etc.), and an overall decrease in the usefulness of the US military.
What's amusing is that people here are blaming the Republicans for not serving, yet the military as a whole is somewhere around 80% Republican -- who isn't serving again? The liberal elites from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, and the like are flocking to the military, right? They lean which way in the political spectrum?
Ok, last item. Roll call here: Which of the following (supporters of the draft, from above) served in the military?
1) conjur
2) dmcowen674
3) d3n
4) her209
5) Termagant
6) International Machine Consortium
7) Steeplerot
8) BaliBabyDoc
9) Perknose
Here's a list of alumni just from my alma mater who have been killed so far in OIF/OEF. One was my classmate; I knew another quite well from my time at VMI; and two I knew of but did not know personally. Another classmate of mine hit an IED and had his Humvee flipped but fortunately did not suffer any serious injuries. STFU about officers not being killed, you idiot.
Mr. Gregory Wright '95
Capt. Lowell T. Miller '93
Capt. James C. Edge '96
Capt. Luke C. Wullenwaber '02
Major Paul R. Syverson '96
Sergeant Ryan E. Doltz '00
Lieutenant Joshua C. Hurley '01
Capt. John Robert Teal '94
Lieutenant Commander David Lucian Williams '91
Mr. Charles W. Mathers '62
Here's a quote for you from the Christian Science Monitor:
Did you ever stop to think, Andrew, that perhaps liberals don't believe in war in the first place? So it's a given that they're not going to want to serve. Perhaps you're too close to be objective about this.
Sorry about your buddies
Totally disagree with your assertion that our Military would suck though because of a draft.
Gee wonder how we won World War II with it???
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