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Christian Republicans??

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shrumpage

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
1,304
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: shrumpage
Originally posted by: Rainsford


"The government" isn't some monolithic entity thrust upon us by aliens, we live in a democracy...what the government does is an extension of what we the people want it to do. If I vote for the government to help the poor, how is that fundamentally different from me helping the poor myself? And none of that "make other people pay for it" noise...I'm a single guy making a fair amount of money, I pay more than my fair share of taxes.
Your missing the key point about private vs. government charity from a Christian prospective - its suppose to be voluntary.

When the government is 'giving' charity, voted for or not, it is money that is taken not freely given.
Negative. That's a Political point of view, not Christian.
what do you mean?

Biblically, God wants us to give freely, and be cheerful about it. That is far cry from being forced to give by the government.
 

pstylesss

Platinum Member
Mar 21, 2007
2,915
0
0
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: Squisher
Well, with me not being a Christian I'm a little hamstrung here, but with a little googling there seems to be a lot of inferences in the Bible that condone the death penalty.

This was the first link google sent back.
The Bible is overwhelmingly in direct opposition to the death penalty. Some common themes throughout include:

1. Do not judge lest ye be judged. Essentially, God is our ruler and is the only true authority capable of judging mankind.

2. As the creator of life, only God is justified in taking it away.

3. Forgiveness. As a Christian, you're supposed to forgive anything, and understand that everything is part of God's plan and happens for a reason, even if it seems impossible to understand.

4. Love. "Love thy neighbour" and "worship and glorify God in everything you do" are widely considered to be the Two Commandments of Christianity. Think about that, and then picture the death penalty. :light:

Taking Biblical quotes out of context (like the "eye for an eye" part) is dangerous. You can quote pretty much anything out of context and it will say what you want it to say.
IMO the Bible needs to be understood as an entire document.
You mean kindof like what you just did?

How about you take a read at the book of Genesis and come back again when you read the part the proves you wrong. I'll give you a hint its in Ch. 4 & Ch. 9.

Jesus practiced mercy to certain people in the New Testament, but that does not over throw Old Testament law like other things that happened did (such as his resurrection did away with the need for sacrifices).
Again, you're quoting two small examples to make a point when there is a multitude of information in the Bible that suggests otherwise.

That logic leads to flawed views, such as those which suggest that blood transfusions should never be performed, and that only 144,000 people will ever make it into heaven. :light:
I find it interesting that you quote Mormon doctrine that have no biblical basis.

Okay, your points:
1) Does not apply because that is not referring to the death penalty. It is speaking of you think you're better than that guy. Has nothing to do with punishment of sins. If you're talking about the verse where he says let he who is without sin cast the first stone, then it also does not apply because those people brought that woman to him saying look what she has done, look how horrible she is. They were also tempting him, trying to find fault in him.
2) Back it up with a verse. Your making your opinion fact.
3) Yes, we are to forgive. Forgiveness != lack of punishment.
4) Considering that God many times commanded the death of someone for a transgression, your logic doesn't flow.

And quit it with the light buld, it doesn't make your post witty or any brighter.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,989
8,354
126
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: SickBeast
That logic leads to flawed views, such as those which suggest that blood transfusions should never be performed, and that only 144,000 people will ever make it into heaven. :light:
I find it interesting that you quote Mormon doctrine that have no biblical basis.
Actually, just nitpicking, but those are JW doctrine, not Mormon.
 

BMW540I6speed

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2005
1,055
0
0
Originally posted by: evident
Originally posted by: Kadarin
Evangelical Christians are all about hate, intolerance, and rejection of science.
as a progressive catholic, i find it unfortunate to see that most americans lump ALL christians as ultra right wing you're-all-going-to-hell assholes. it seems that in most religions only the zealots get their voice heard and all the moderates have to suffer with being associated with them :(
Christians believe God calls them to live a particular way.

Theocrats believe God calls the entire nation to live a particular way, preferably but not necessarily voluntarily.

This is appealing to fundamental christianists. It's appealing to the distorted brand of Christianity of the televangelists and especially of those dutiful bleating sheep in the Southern Baptist and Assemblies of God sects/cults.

There has always been a progressive side of Christianity that helped fuel the Civil Rights movement and the like, that has been all but buried by the right wing evangelical theocrat. It's a shame they get all the press and it's almost a given they will vote Republican.






 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,991
0
0
Originally posted by: shrumpage
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: shrumpage
Originally posted by: Rainsford


"The government" isn't some monolithic entity thrust upon us by aliens, we live in a democracy...what the government does is an extension of what we the people want it to do. If I vote for the government to help the poor, how is that fundamentally different from me helping the poor myself? And none of that "make other people pay for it" noise...I'm a single guy making a fair amount of money, I pay more than my fair share of taxes.
Your missing the key point about private vs. government charity from a Christian prospective - its suppose to be voluntary.

When the government is 'giving' charity, voted for or not, it is money that is taken not freely given.
Negative. That's a Political point of view, not Christian.
what do you mean?

Biblically, God wants us to give freely, and be cheerful about it. That is far cry from being forced to give by the government.
This 'forced to give' argument always makes me laugh. Hate to tell ya but the (R)'s tax and spend just like the (D)'s do. You might agree/disagree with specifics on what they do with the money but we all can't pick and choose where our tax money goes. If I could I'd be spending less of mine in Iraq. ;)

 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,378
17
81
ZeroIQ: To make my life easier, I'm going to simply quote "thou shall not kill" from the 10 commandments. I'm surprised you even needed me to do that! Do you really think that Christians condone killing people?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,989
8,354
126
Originally posted by: SickBeast
ZeroIQ: To make my life easier, I'm going to simply quote "thou shall not kill" from the 10 commandments. I'm surprised you even needed me to do that! Do you really think that Christians condone killing people?
You're aware that Moses himself did a lot of killing, right? In fact, the first thing he did after coming down from Mt Sinai with 10 Commandments in hand was to put to death some 3000 for the sin of idolatry (adoration of the golden calf).
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,378
17
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: SickBeast
ZeroIQ: To make my life easier, I'm going to simply quote "thou shall not kill" from the 10 commandments. I'm surprised you even needed me to do that! Do you really think that Christians condone killing people?
You're aware that Moses himself did a lot of killing, right? In fact, the first thing he did after coming down from Mt Sinai with 10 Commandments in hand was to put to death some 3000 for the sin of idolatry (adoration of the golden calf).
Are you certain that's accurate and has passed the canon of scripture?

You should also realize that Moses was a prophet with a divine connection to God.
 

pstylesss

Platinum Member
Mar 21, 2007
2,915
0
0
Originally posted by: SickBeast
ZeroIQ: To make my life easier, I'm going to simply quote "thou shall not kill" from the 10 commandments. I'm surprised you even needed me to do that! Do you really think that Christians condone killing people?
Try again. God killed and he does not hold a double standard. Because of this it would mean that he sinned, which is impossible, therefore your logic is flawed.

By that commandment we should not have wars, yet there are many times in the Bible that God commanded Israel to wage war on a people. You are taking it out of context, just like you accused others of doing. That commandment refers to murder.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,064
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: SickBeast
ZeroIQ: To make my life easier, I'm going to simply quote "thou shall not kill" from the 10 commandments. I'm surprised you even needed me to do that! Do you really think that Christians condone killing people?
You're aware that Moses himself did a lot of killing, right? In fact, the first thing he did after coming down from Mt Sinai with 10 Commandments in hand was to put to death some 3000 for the sin of idolatry (adoration of the golden calf).
Yeah, well... Christians didn't name their religion after moses, now did they?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,989
8,354
126
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: SickBeast
ZeroIQ: To make my life easier, I'm going to simply quote "thou shall not kill" from the 10 commandments. I'm surprised you even needed me to do that! Do you really think that Christians condone killing people?
You're aware that Moses himself did a lot of killing, right? In fact, the first thing he did after coming down from Mt Sinai with 10 Commandments in hand was to put to death some 3000 for the sin of idolatry (adoration of the golden calf).
Are you certain that's accurate and has passed the canon of scripture?

You should also realize that Moses was a prophet with a divine connection to God.
:confused:

Exodus 32 leaves little room for interpretation here.
 

pstylesss

Platinum Member
Mar 21, 2007
2,915
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: SickBeast
ZeroIQ: To make my life easier, I'm going to simply quote "thou shall not kill" from the 10 commandments. I'm surprised you even needed me to do that! Do you really think that Christians condone killing people?
You're aware that Moses himself did a lot of killing, right? In fact, the first thing he did after coming down from Mt Sinai with 10 Commandments in hand was to put to death some 3000 for the sin of idolatry (adoration of the golden calf).
Are you certain that's accurate and has passed the canon of scripture?

You should also realize that Moses was a prophet with a divine connection to God.
:confused:

Exodus 32 leaves little room for interpretation here.
You're absolutely right Vic. I just read it.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,989
8,354
126
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: SickBeast
ZeroIQ: To make my life easier, I'm going to simply quote "thou shall not kill" from the 10 commandments. I'm surprised you even needed me to do that! Do you really think that Christians condone killing people?
You're aware that Moses himself did a lot of killing, right? In fact, the first thing he did after coming down from Mt Sinai with 10 Commandments in hand was to put to death some 3000 for the sin of idolatry (adoration of the golden calf).
Yeah, well... Christians didn't name their religion after moses, now did they?
I'm not arguing one side or the other here, just pointing out that his citing of the 6th commandment here is fundamentally flawed. For one thing, the correct translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder." And for another is how I pointed out that Moses had some 3000 Israelites put to death for the crime of idolatry right after coming down from Sinai with the commandments (and I can't believe that I was asked if that was "canon").
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,378
17
81
Originally posted by: Vic
I can't believe that I was asked if that was "canon"
I just didn't remember it, and I've read Exodus. I've even seen a movie or two involving that chapter from the Bible and there was no mention of what you were referring to.

There are people who use Bibles which contain things that many Christians do not believe have passed the canon.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,989
8,354
126
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: Vic
I can't believe that I was asked if that was "canon"
I just didn't remember it, and I've read Exodus. I've even seen a movie or two involving that chapter from the Bible and there was no mention of what you were referring to.

There are people who use Bibles which contain things that many Christians do not believe have passed the canon.
Yeah well, this was the scene from Mel Brooks' "History of the World Part I" where Moses says, "The Lord has given us these 15... <drops 1 of 3 stone tablets, recovers quickly> 10! 10 Commandments!"
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,086
493
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: Vic
I can't believe that I was asked if that was "canon"
I just didn't remember it, and I've read Exodus. I've even seen a movie or two involving that chapter from the Bible and there was no mention of what you were referring to.

There are people who use Bibles which contain things that many Christians do not believe have passed the canon.
Yeah well, this was the scene from Mel Brooks' "History of the World Part I" where Moses says, "The Lord has given us these 15... <drops 1 of 3 stone tablets, recovers quickly> 10! 10 Commandments!"
Have to love Mel Brooks. Doubt his movies would see the light of day in todays world. Blazing Saddles would be slapped silly with protests hehe.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,989
8,354
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: Vic
I can't believe that I was asked if that was "canon"
I just didn't remember it, and I've read Exodus. I've even seen a movie or two involving that chapter from the Bible and there was no mention of what you were referring to.

There are people who use Bibles which contain things that many Christians do not believe have passed the canon.
Yeah well, this was the scene from Mel Brooks' "History of the World Part I" where Moses says, "The Lord has given us these 15... <drops 1 of 3 stone tablets, recovers quickly> 10! 10 Commandments!"
Have to love Mel Brooks. Doubt his movies would see the light of day in todays world. Blazing Saddles would be slapped silly with protests hehe.
Probably not as Richard Pryor co-wrote it. But who knows? People are silly.

Looking back through the thread, there are schools of thought that Christianity should be fundamentally opposed to the death penalty (crucifixion represents inhumanity of man, so cruel we executed God Himself, etc.) but once again, Christianity is not a monolithic faith.
For my part, insisting upon a "literal interpretation" of the Bible is akin to insisting on a literal interpretation of the movie Shrek.
 

shrumpage

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
1,304
0
0
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: shrumpage
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: shrumpage
Originally posted by: Rainsford


"The government" isn't some monolithic entity thrust upon us by aliens, we live in a democracy...what the government does is an extension of what we the people want it to do. If I vote for the government to help the poor, how is that fundamentally different from me helping the poor myself? And none of that "make other people pay for it" noise...I'm a single guy making a fair amount of money, I pay more than my fair share of taxes.
Your missing the key point about private vs. government charity from a Christian prospective - its suppose to be voluntary.

When the government is 'giving' charity, voted for or not, it is money that is taken not freely given.
Negative. That's a Political point of view, not Christian.
what do you mean?

Biblically, God wants us to give freely, and be cheerful about it. That is far cry from being forced to give by the government.
This 'forced to give' argument always makes me laugh. Hate to tell ya but the (R)'s tax and spend just like the (D)'s do. You might agree/disagree with specifics on what they do with the money but we all can't pick and choose where our tax money goes. If I could I'd be spending less of mine in Iraq. ;)
I think we all agree the government will spend money on stuff that we don't agree with - no argument there.

Originally Rainsford said government is suppose to help the poor, since the government is a reflection of the people. I suggest that charitable giving to be Christian can NOT be given through the government, since government forcible takes the money.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,586
11
76
Originally posted by: Prism


So...why do the majority of "Christians" in this country vote Republican? I don't think they should be allowed to call themselves Christians; at least the ones that agree with these currently predominantly Republican ideals (but they shouldn't be voting for these candidates that do support it in the first place).

EDIT: To the Mods: I meant to post this in P&N, so if you'd be so kind could ya move it over there?
I agree entirely. We need to stop these people from saying this, and force them to change their religious beliefs too. While we're at it, let's quarter some soldiers in their houses!
 

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