[chiphell] kepler rumors suggest 15% better than 580.. price and transistors

[SirPauly]

I don't -- considering it is a substantial and significant node change. The OC headroom and scaling bodes well for future product sku's based on this architecture though.

 

[JAG87]

A few months... you mean an undetermined time of months before an undetermined product will launch that will have undetermined performance?

Months where they have a supply that will be sold at almost any price... so why again would they launch a product with a lower price thus competing with their other products and at the same time have shortages. Seems foolish... as we see now, they sell every card they make with an additional 150$ profit compared to your pricepoint.

Lol, it's amazing how you look at this 100% from a company perspective, and 0% from a consumer perspective. Do you work for AMD? Maybe you have stock options?

What?

How does that make any sense? We could extrapolate on that, you know. The 7970 should have been released at 150$ because in 4 years there'll be a card that performs similarly at that price point!

Compare the 7970's price with current products and see that its price makes total sense.

Yes I do compare, and I am seeing that two 6870 1GB cards match it's performance at 1920x resolution for $200 less. And two 6950 2GB cards in crossfire comfortably beat a 7970 at 2560x resolution for $100 less. Name one thing this card brings to the table that is worth recommending over two 6950s 2GB. This is not new gen performance, this is 2 year old gen performance with a new box and a new price. 5870 +50% performance + 50% price. What a great deal! Next year with the 8970 are we gonna get another +50% performance and +50% price?


This is an ad hominem personal attack which are not allowed in VC&G.

Re: "Do you work for AMD? Maybe you have stock options?"

Please change your approach to your fellow forum colleagues.

Administrator Idontcare

 

[SirPauly]

Especially when sweet spot pricing -- bang-for-the-buck -- value -- value drums banging for many years. It's like it never existed, hehe!

 

[blackened23]

Lol, it's amazing how you look at this 100% from a company perspective, and 0% from a consumer perspective. Do you work for AMD? Maybe you have stock options?




Yes I do compare, and I am seeing that two 6870 1GB cards match it's performance at 1920x resolution for $200 less. And two 6950 2GB cards in crossfire comfortably beat a 7970 at 2560x resolution for $100 less. Name one thing this card brings to the table that is worth recommending over two 6950s 2GB. This is not new gen performance, this is 2 year old gen performance with a new box and a new price. 5870 +50% performance + 50% price. What a great deal! Next year with the 8970 are we gonna get another +50% performance and +50% price?

I will now prove how utterly ridiculous your argument is:

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/167?vs=158

I am seeing that two GTX 285 cards greatly exceeding GTX 480 performance at 1920x resolution for 300$ less. And two of these cards in SLI comfortably beat a GTX 480 at 2560x resolution for over 300$ less. Name one thing the Fermi brings to the table worth recommending over 2 GTX 285's in SLI, this is not next gen performance. This year we will get kepler for +50% performance +50% price. What a great deal!

Seeing as the GTX 580 is 10% faster than the GTX 480, we can extraplate from these figures and determine that the GTX 285 SLI is the clear winner in value. Why would *anyone* get a GTX 580? I bought a GTX 285 off ebay for 50 bucks, so we have a clear winner in the GPU field folks. GTX 285.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

But if you are looking on things historically where do you see the $400 mid-range part ?

We don't, which is likely more evidence that this rumor is false, but then again not unbelievable as a part like that if released to day would be more than justifiable @ $400. And again, does not detract from GK104 not being GK100.

But again 'mid-range' you think a mid-range card will be $400 ?

Nope, just establishing that GK104 is a step below GK100, in retrospect "mid-range" has been used too loosely. Wherever pricing, performance, and of course price/performance shakes out remains to be seen

At $400 we are talking the sub-high end card again going on your historical ruleset. 470/570 class, in which case it is a disappointment and not 'doom and gloom'

Again, GK104 is a step below GK100. If GK104 is fast enough to justify as a "sub-high end" card per your standards with a $400 model, is that really such a bad thing? All that really implies is that GK100 will be super high end.

And if you still consider it a disappointment then I take it you must feel the 7970 @ $550 is a massive disappointment per your established standard?

See above. $400 is not a mid-range price. See 7970/7950 @ $550/$450. These are not mid-range cards, they are flagship/sub-flagship cards. Mid-range cards are $200-$300.

GK104 is not a card, its a GPU. Its not the flagship GPU, GK100 is, and whether or not it ends up in a card priced in range to be described as "midrange" per your standards remains to be seen. If nVidia can compete with AMD's flagship with the non flagship GK104, why couldn't they price it to match what AMD has established?

Again discussing this, likely false rumour, at $400 we are not looking at a mid-range card.

Yeah, it probably wouldn't be a "mid-range" card in any traditional sense if it was priced @ $400, but the original root of this particular discussion is that relative to GK100, GK104 is "mid-range", and for the sake of the argument if this is all true (which seems extremely unlikely) it would in turn mean very expensive GK100 cards.

 

[blackened23]

GK104 isn't a card, not a GPU, its vaporware right now. That slide (again) wasn't real So its pointless to base any arguments on it.

I should point out that the performance keplers are being released in a staggered fashion - I don't recall where but NV did say that they are releasing from the bottom up. So any theoretical performance kepler (GK100) will not be released until Q3 2012.

 

[JAG87]

I will now prove how utterly ridiculous your argument is:

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/167?vs=158

I am seeing that two GTX 285 cards match GTX 480 performance at 1920x resolution for 300$ less. And two of these cards in SLI comfortably beat a GTX 480 at 2560x resolution for over 300$ less. Name one thing the Fermi brings to the table worth recommending over 2 GTX 285's in SLI, this is not next gen performance.

Seeing as the GTX 580 is 10% faster than the GTX 480, we can extraplate from these figures and determine that the GTX 285 SLI is the clear winner in value. Why would *anyone* get a GTX 580?

Do you post drunk or something? How was GTX 285 SLI $300 cheaper than a single GTX 480? A 285 was $400 when the 480 launched. Point 1

And point 2, what does it bring to the table? Umm, how about DX11? Lol what a fail comparison you made.


Insults are not allowed in VC&G.

Re: "Do you post drunk or something?"

Administrator Idontcare

 

[Grooveriding]

Again, GK104 is a step below GK100. If GK104 is fast enough to justify as a "sub-high end" card per your standards with $400 model is that really such a bad thing? All that really implies is that GK100 will be super high end.

This is all speculation, but it could easily turn out that GK100 is a single product -the 680 to give it a name and the GK104 it the next card down; the 670 to give it a name. It would fit with the $400 price and would not bode well for the overall performance of the lineup.

And if you still consider it a disappointment then I take it you must feel the 7970 @ $550 is a massive disappointment per your established standard?

In the context of what nvidia has out now it would be a disappointment. I expect to see nvidia gain about 40% over the 580 in their 28nm flagship. If this rumour were true I would take a $400 card to be their second best card in their lineup, making their best card not much better than it.

Actually looking on it again, in that context it may not be all bad. If their best gpu is 40% better than the 580, I can see the second best being 20% better.

 

[blackened23]

Do you post drunk or something? How was GTX 285 SLI $300 cheaper than a single GTX 480? Point 1

And point 2, what does it bring to the table? Umm, how about DX11? Lol what a fail comparison you made.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-BFG-GeF...o_TV_Cards&hash=item23186f41eb#ht_2277wt_1139

How about 460 SLI to GTX 580? The comparisons go on and on.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/314?vs=305

Why would anyone get a GTX 580 when you can get 2 used 460s in SLI for hundreds less? Or if you don't play DX11 games, you can grab 285s off ebay for ~50$. The point is clear. GTX 580 is *not* a next gen card. (i'm not being serious on that point, just pointing out how bad your comparison is)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...nc.-_-14133428

GTX 460 new: 129.99. So you can get 2 of those and match a GTX 580 performance wise.

 

[AtenRa]

I don't recall where but NV did say that they are releasing from the bottom up. So any theoretical performance kepler (GK100) will not be released until Q3 2012.

That was not an official NVIDIA release, again you taking rumors as facts/official releases.

 

[blackened23]

That was not an official NVIDIA release, again you taking rumors as facts/official releases.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-gpu-kepler-graphics-card,14160.html

It was on TH so I assumed it was reputable. Maybe not though. Who knows.

 

[AtenRa]

From your link

Japanese site 4Gamer.net reports that the entry-level GK107 card could be the first model of Nvidia's new 28 nm GPU series and arrive with a 128-bit memory interface as well as GDDR5 memory.

Nvidia declined to confirm the information published by 4Gamer.net.

 

[JAG87]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-BFG-GeF...o_TV_Cards&hash=item23186f41eb#ht_2277wt_1139

How about 460 SLI to GTX 580? The comparisons go on and on. Stupid comparison is stupid.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/314?vs=305

Why would anyone get a GTX 580 when you can get 2 used 460s in SLI for hundreds less? Or if you don't play DX11 games, you can grab 285s off ebay for ~50$. The point is clear. GTX 580 is *not* a next gen card. (i'm not being serious on that point, just pointing out how stupid your comparison is)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...nc.-_-14133428

GTX 460 new: 129.99. So you can get 2 of those and match a GTX 580 performance wise. Again, stupid argument is stupid.

No, because I'm comparing LAUNCH PRICES, while you are making idiotic current value comparisons. And I've already stated that the GTX 580 was a bad value, which is why you don't see any in my computer. The 480 was a good value for the price at launch. The 580 is a bad value for the price 8 months later.

Dude go take some economics classes.

 

[nyker96]

If this rumor is true, I'm a little perplex by this move, why put out something just 15% more than the previous gen? Kinda waste of time, should just R&D some more and put it out when it's faster. And typically NV makes a huge jump in each new line compare to previous gen. I somehow think it will be more like 50% faster than 580.

 

[blackened23]

From your link

Oops Didn't catch that

 

[JAG87]

I will now prove how utterly ridiculous your argument is:

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/167?vs=158

I am seeing that two GTX 285 cards greatly exceeding GTX 480 performance at 1920x resolution for 300$ less. And two of these cards in SLI comfortably beat a GTX 480 at 2560x resolution for over 300$ less. Name one thing the Fermi brings to the table worth recommending over 2 GTX 285's in SLI, this is not next gen performance. This year we will get kepler for +50% performance +50% price. What a great deal!

Seeing as the GTX 580 is 10% faster than the GTX 480, we can extraplate from these figures and determine that the GTX 285 SLI is the clear winner in value. Why would *anyone* get a GTX 580? I bought a GTX 285 off ebay for 50 bucks, so we have a clear winner in the GPU field folks. GTX 285.

Oh and thanks for further proving my point that a GTX 480 ($499) offered GTX 285 SLI ($800) performance for $300 cheaper.

Something that Tahiti as a new architecture, fails to do.

 

[Arzachel]

If this rumor is true, I'm a little perplex by this move, why put out something just 15% more than the previous gen? Kinda waste of time, should just R&D some more and put it out when it's faster. And typically NV makes a huge jump in each new line compare to previous gen. I somehow think it will be more like 50% faster than 580.

Psst, if you had read the last page, you'd know that no, Nvidia doesn't necessarily make a huge jump in each new line

Oh and thanks for further proving my point that a GTX 480 ($499) offered GTX 285 SLI ($800) performance for $300 cheaper.

Something that Tahiti as a new architecture, fails to do.

That is more telling of the Sli scalling, GTX 480 was around 45% faster then a GTX 285... seems familiar, doesn't it? (6970,7970)

 

[Quantos]

JAG87's argument isn't all flawed. It's true that two cheaper cards will beat a single flagship for cheaper. This has been true for a while now, and true for both amd and nvidia. Where the argument does fail is that it doesn't mean the 7970 should be 300 bucks. It's priced right compared to nvidia current, single gpu flagship. That is the only thing currently relevant to its pricing. A 300 dollars 7970 at the moment would be incredibly dumb. Flagships are bad value, we know, but flagships compare to each other first, then only to rest.

 

[djnsmith7]

Unless you need CUDA or are totally unwilling to go AMD, you could get a 1.5 GB 7950 for 399$ when it releases. It should be slightly (~5&#37 better then a GTX 580 with a lot lower TDP.

It appears the timing may be beneficial in the way of the Step Up program, if the cards fall into place & I'd like to take advantage of it. If they don't, I still don't want to pay >$400, so it would only make sense to consider the 7950.

 

[blackened23]

Oh and thanks for further proving my point that a GTX 480 ($499) offered GTX 285 SLI ($800) performance for $300 cheaper.

Something that Tahiti as a new architecture, fails to do.

Yep! A GTX 460 (129.99$ x2) sli beats out a GTX 580 (499.99$ MSRP) performance for 250$ cheaper

Point proven sir! GTX 580 isn't a next gen card, can't even keep up with a 460 sli. Tsk tsk.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

This is all speculation, but it could easily turn out that GK100 is a single product -the 680 to give it a name and the GK104 it the next card down; the 670 to give it a name. It would fit with the $400 price and would not bode well for the overall performance of the lineup.

True, that could happen, yet does not correlate at all with an otherwise very predictable code name pattern. Just like AMD, nVidia has been cutting down their flagship GPU to get a pair (and in some cases a 3rd) of models from that flagship GPU (this has been going on for every generation dating back to the GeForce 2. The GTX580, 570 and now even the 560Ti 448core are all based off of the GF110 flagship GPU. To assume otherwise for Kepler doesn't get us anywhere, particularly when we're starting from nothing other than what we can best guess at based on their history.

Right now you're just really grasping for straws from information of what is likely a false rumor to come to that conclusion

In the context of what nvidia has out now it would be a disappointment. I expect to see nvidia gain about 40% over the 580 in their 28nm flagship. If this rumour were true I would take a $400 card to be their second best card in their lineup, making their best card not much better than it.

Actually looking on it again, in that context it may not be all bad. If their best gpu is 40% better than the 580, I can see the second best being 20% better.

this is where you're getting caught up.

I interpreted this information as GK104 vs. GF110 (ie GTX760 vs. GTX580) which would be analogous to GF104 vs. GT200b (ie GTX460 vs. GTX285) results:
285 vs 460

ie GF104 is 10-15% faster than GT200b.

Where this analogy leaves us with GK100 would remain to be seen, what you expect and what we get might be extremely different. Where you might expect only 40-50% improvement, I actually wouldn't be surprised if we see close to 100% if not better, as we got nearly just that with the GTX480 vs. the GTX285 and GTX460, results:

285 vs 480

 

[Arkadrel]

No, because I'm comparing LAUNCH PRICES, while you are making idiotic current value comparisons. And I've already stated that the GTX 580 was a bad value, which is why you don't see any in my computer. The 480 was a good value for the price at launch. The 580 is a bad value for the price 8 months later.

Dude go take some economics classes.

6870 launch price was 240$+
That ll be over 480$ vs the 7970 being 550$.

However, some people would still choose the single GPU option, even at 70$ differnce, to not have CF issues ect.

The 480 was a good value for the price at launch

499$

The 580 is a bad value for the price 8 months later.

499$


*going by Wiki #'s.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

However, some people would still choose the single GPU option, even at 70$ differnce, to not have CF issues ect.

very much this

there are also those who simply demand performance that no single GPU was capable of delivering or even two budget GPUs

I kind of fit into both as I gave up SLI GTX470s for a single GTX580 during my BFBC2 days as I simply didn't care for SLI and its drawbacks and a 580 was certainly more than fast enough, but then BF3 came out and destroyed my single 580 and I begrudgingly went back to SLI by adding a second 580, and I still don't get frame rates I'm completely happy with for my most GPU intensive games (ie BF3, Skyrim, Crysis, etc)

this is why I'm torn on the 7970; its not fast enough for me to know I'd be happy with just one, and I'm not too eager to plop down $1100+ for a pair when the goal is to try and ditch multi GPU, particularly when at the end of the day I still need an nVidia rig for CUDA support. I'll probably end up grabbing a single 7970 anyway, particularly once we start seeing some good aftermarket coolers (would prefer at least a triple slot model, as I really would only run just 1 card and thus would need the card most conducive to overclocking on air) and running two rigs if I have to.

 

[Vesku]

Name one thing this card brings to the table that is worth recommending over two 6950s 2GB.

Not having to deal with Crossfire.

 

[blackened23]

very much this

there are also those who simply demand performance that no single GPU was capable of delivering or even two budget GPUs

I kind of fit into both as I gave up SLI GTX470s for a single GTX580 during my BFBC2 days as I simply didn't care for SLI and its drawbacks and a 580 was certainly more than fast enough, but then BF3 came out and destroyed my single 580 and I begrudgingly went back to SLI by adding a second 580, and I still don't get frame rates I'm completely happy with for my most GPU intensive games (ie BF3, Skyrim, Crysis, etc)

this is why I'm torn on the 7970; its not fast enough for me to know I'd be happy with just one, and I'm not too eager to plop down $1100+ for a pair when the goal is to try and ditch multi GPU, particularly when at the end of the day I still need an nVidia rig for CUDA support. I'll probably end up grabbing a single 7970 anyway, particularly once we start seeing some good aftermarket coolers (would prefer at least a triple slot model, as I really would only run just 1 card and thus would need the card most conducive to overclocking on air) and running two rigs if I have to.

Do you play at 2560x1440/1600 as well?

I could see that point. At 2560x resolution even SLI 580s struggle at times with stuff like Witcher 2 and ubersampling, metro 2033 with ultra dx11 settings.

I've just become comfortable running 1 notch below full detail, both of those games run 60+ fps fluid with slightly lower settings