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[chiphell] kepler rumors suggest 15% better than 580.. price and transistors

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Crap Daddy

Senior member
May 6, 2011
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:confused: The CPU forum was littered with threads all last year based on OBR's "latest leaked benchmarks" on bulldozer.

What part proved to be right? The part where he totally trashed his credibility by admitting straight up on his site that he faked them in some elaborate scheme to crap on donamhibar?

1,570,000 hits speaks to his integrity.

Just like bulldozer, OBR takes it to 11 when it comes to performance.
I agree with you. The only part was that overall Bulldozer is gonna be an underachiever while most of the expectations and other leaks suggested Bulldozer will be a killer. This could also be a fake but it looks far more realistic than anything we have seen before 1024 Cuda cores and such.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
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I was warned and accused of thread crapping and derailment for stating that I thought 7970 sales were slow in a thread about buying 7970's. Not making any accusations just weird. /shrug

Complaining about the moderators will get you more infractions, so lets get back to sales. We don't know what the original stock of these we are both just assuming they are or aren't selling well based on when the etailers are going oos. That being said they are selling and we will see for how long. For me a 15% faster than 580 card for 400~ is what I'd be looking for. 550-600 is just too much for me. So I'm hoping the gk104 delivers or the 7950. Either way I'm left waiting.

I wish prices were like the 5870 days but accept good business for AMD means the prices aren't. I can't fault them for it, but simply need to remain patient. And damn that's hard to do!
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
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Either way it's not fast enough, even overclocked at least for me. It also has horrendous price vs performance, pass.
Flagship performance leading parts are not about price/performance so that should not surprise you. I think you already know that though since you bought 470s rather than 480s.

Unless Nvidia has major problems there is no reason to believe a 760 mainstream card will compete directly with the 7970.
Notice the edit to your wording. Neither your original or my new statement means anything. It's all hyperbole unless you have a card or real benchmarks of a card and know how it performs.

The real question is will we be paying $500+ for that card too, or will somebody bring a product to market with some freaking sense? The economy is awful right now, why the heck would they bring out a $550 card... rich get richer, poor get poorer.
You'll be paying at least $500 and quite possibly more. Single GPU flagship cards are not being put to market with the intention of selling them to people in tight financial situations. They are luxury items for people who have some leeway in their finances to account for purchasing them.

Your argument is contradictory to the myriad of high priced premium products, like the 7970, on the market at any time. Why is there a $10,000 diamond ring in that window, why isn't that Porsche dealership closed down, why is Intel selling a 3960X ? The economy is awful!

Doesn't make sense.
 
May 13, 2009
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Thats a nice way of saying "playing the victim".
Now watch as you get a infaction for that :p



Their all sold out though, on newegg and most other places.
I don't want to get into the nvidia v amd drama. Especially since I'm just a guy that has owned both and would own either one depending on my gpu needs.
 
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railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
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I don't want to get into the nvidia v amd drama. Especially since I'm just a guy that has owned both and would own either one depending on my gpu needs.

It's pretty obvious to me that this is a sensitive subject here and I don't feel like being permabanned for not "going with the program" or just flat out run off by the "members" here. I'll keep my AMD opinions to "omg I wants one" or whatever else is acceptable.
Yet you continue to insinuate that there is an agenda here? Do you not realize your wording and implications?

And then you wonder why anyone would call your post to question. Just discuss the material and let the moderators handle things. I've discussed my position to a mod and had my infraction removed - it was a misunderstanding. But if you keep drumming the same drum, you're only going to get the same tune.
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
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You don't know if the GK104 is midrange, flagship or an HTPC card - it's unreleased and there is no information from nvidia about it. What we are discussing is this rumour and it puts this card at a $400 pricepoint, that is hardly a midrange price.
Its been obvious in nVidia's naming scheme for a while now that the 4 in the codename referred to the midrange GPU just below the flagship going back to the G84 and G94 even, and of course the GF104 and GF114.

Your comment here is what is hearsay as we know nothing about these cards and there is no data from nvidia on them. All we have to go on are discussions like the data in this thread's OP, rumours.
Its not hearsay, it was a rhetorical question to try and curb your doom and gloom outlook as if nVidia is totally screwed because this rumor (which is most likely false) indicated that their sub-flagship part would be 10-15% faster than a GTX580 and fairly priced if released today (seriously, $400 for a "mid range Kepler" that performs right between the 580 and 7970 would be a bargain when the 7970s are selling like hotcakes for $550)

So far the 2 or 3 slides we have seen about whatever nvidia is cooking up look to be completely fake. But if we are going to discuss this one, it looks disappointing. About all we are getting from any of this is there is nothing really solid to be said about kepler yet and we'll just have to wait until it is finished and actually ready to be released.
Again, what would be disappointing about it? 10-15% faster than a GTX580 puts it right on the heals of a 7970 for $400 for a codename GPU of GK104, which is not the flagship, GK100 is.
 
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blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
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The problem bunny is that this part you speak of -- all of the specifications you speak of have no basis in reality. The original source of the chart was on a chiphell forum and it was discussed to death there (in chinese) and it is not real. The same chart was later said to have originated from CES but we know that is not true.

I'd be all about gk104, but we don't know anything concrete about it yet other than it will not have hotclocking.

I am so sick of all of the fake charts - i've seen a dozen fake charts pertaining to both NV and AMD. It sickening at this point.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
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If this is the GTX x60 series and it cost more than a GTX 580's current price - I'm scared of what the GTX x70 and GTX x80 would cost. And would we see a reversal of the "sweet spot" proponents.

Either way, I'm looking for GTX 580 performance at GTX 570 prices. That is what I'm ultimately hopping the new cards would produce when the price wars start.

Suddenly I feel like IDC's opinion of price fixing is almost becoming a reality. Which makes me sad :(
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
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The problem bunny is that this part you speak of -- all of the specifications you speak of have no basis in reality. The original source of the chart was on a chiphell forum and it was discussed to death there (in chinese) and it is not real.

I'd be all about gk104, but we don't know anything concrete about it yet other than it will not have hotclocking.
that's not my problem, its the threads problem, the original topic at hand revolves around it, if its verified to be false then this entire thread just lost its original basis for existing
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
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Flagship performance leading parts are not about price/performance so that should not surprise you. I think you already know that though since you bought 470s rather than 480s.



Notice the edit to your wording. Neither your original or my new statement means anything. It's all hyperbole unless you have a card or real benchmarks of a card and know how it performs.



You'll be paying at least $500 and quite possibly more. Single GPU flagship cards are not being put to market with the intention of selling them to people in tight financial situations. They are luxury items for people who have some leeway in their finances to account for purchasing them.

Your argument is contradictory to the myriad of high priced premium products, like the 7970, on the market at any time. Why is there a $10,000 diamond ring in that window, why isn't that Porsche dealership closed down, why is Intel selling a 3960X ? The economy is awful!

Doesn't make sense.
I'm going to bed, that was so hard to read.

Flagship from one gen to the next isn't 20% faster than last gens flagship, that's a joke and a poor one played on us all by AMD.

I bought my cards after the refresh, 470 for $350, do not want, 470 for $150, give me two.

It's basic logic, name the last generation of Nvidia cards where performance over the previous generation didn't increase by at least 50%... The 460 matched the 285. That's mainstream vs flagship.

I'm not asking for a sub $500 flagship card, I'm saying the 7970 isn't one and it's price is just AMD's new CEO doing the bulldozer style $280 8150 spat in your face.

Way to take what I said off the reservation, no need for an actual response here.
 
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May 13, 2009
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Yet you continue to insinuate that there is an agenda here? Do you not realize your wording and implications?

And then you wonder why anyone would call your post to question. Just discuss the material and let the moderators handle things. I've discussed my position to a mod and had my infraction removed - it was a misunderstanding. But if you keep drumming the same drum, you're only going to get the same tune.
I know it's best just to keep quiet. So I will. I'll leave it at that.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
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I'm going to bed, that was so hard to read.

Flagship from one gen to the next isn't 20% faster that last gens flagship, that's a joke and a poor one played on us all by AMD.

I bought my cards after the refresh, 470 for $350, do not want, 470 for $150, give me two.

It's basic logic, name the last generation of Nvidia cards where performance over the previous generation didn't increase by at least 50%... The 460 was faster than the 285, by what.. 30%? That's mainstream vs flagship.

I'm not asking for a sub $500 flagship card, I'm saying the 7970 isn't one and it's price is just AMD's new CEO doing the bulldozer style $280 8150 spat in your face.

Way to take what I said off the reservation, no need for an actual response here.
You'd have to define generation. Do you mean architectural? Or do you mean numerical/family?

GTX 4xx series to GTX 5xx series showed a similar performance increase that HD 5xxx series did to HD 6xxx series. HD 7xxx series (ignoring OCing) shows a similar pattern too. The question is - will GTX 6xx series continue this recent pattern? Time will tell.
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,078
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Its been obvious in nVidia's naming scheme for a while now that the 4 in the codename referred to the midrange GPU just below the flagship going back to the G84 and G94 even, and of course the GF104 and GF114.
But if you are looking on things historically where do you see the $400 mid-range part ?


Its not hearsay, it was a rhetorical question to try and curb your doom and gloom outlook as if nVidia is totally screwed because this rumor (which is most likely false) indicated that their sub-flagship part would be 10-15% faster than a GTX580 and fairly priced if released today (seriously, $400 for a "mid range Kepler" that performs right between the 580 and 7970 would be a bargain when the 7970s are selling like hotcakes for $550)
But again 'mid-range' you think a mid-range card will be $400 ? At $400 we are talking the sub-high end card again going on your historical ruleset. 470/570 class, in which case it is a disappointment and not 'doom and gloom'


Again, what would be disappointing about it? 10-15% faster than a GTX580 puts it right on the heals of a 7970 for $400 for a codename GPU of GK104, which is not the flagship, GK100 is.
See above. $400 is not a mid-range price. See 7970/7950 @ $550/$450. These are not mid-range cards, they are flagship/sub-flagship cards. Mid-range cards are $200-$300.

Again discussing this, likely false rumour, at $400 we are not looking at a mid-range card.
 

Arzachel

Senior member
Apr 7, 2011
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Flagship from one gen to the next isn't 20% faster than last gens flagship, that's a joke and a poor one played on us all by AMD.
A joke like GTX 580 being 20% faster than a GTX 480? Like a GTX 480 being 15% faster than a HD 5870? I don't remember a 5870 being that much faster over a GTX 285 either.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
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that's not my problem, its the threads problem, the original topic at hand revolves around it, if its verified to be false then this entire thread just lost its original basis for existing


My mind exploded. So we have to prove something is not real rather than the source prove that something is real? :hmm:
 

djnsmith7

Platinum Member
Apr 13, 2004
2,612
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Complaining about the moderators will get you more infractions, so lets get back to sales. We don't know what the original stock of these we are both just assuming they are or aren't selling well based on when the etailers are going oos. That being said they are selling and we will see for how long. For me a 15% faster than 580 card for 400~ is what I'd be looking for. 550-600 is just too much for me. So I'm hoping the gk104 delivers or the 7950. Either way I'm left waiting.

I wish prices were like the 5870 days but accept good business for AMD means the prices aren't. I can't fault them for it, but simply need to remain patient. And damn that's hard to do!
I'm in the same boat & it's not a fun spot to be in. I'm ready to drop the coin, but the best option isn't clear yet.

If Evga would drop the 580 1.5 to ≤$399 & NV would announce the release of the GTX680 @ >15% over the 580 & a product launch by the last week in March, I'd pull the trigger this week. Otherwise, it's just a waiting game.

I'm hoping the GTX680 is >15% faster than the GTX580, otherwise I'd have to reconsider. Here's to hoping the 680 isn't another Bulldozer flop.
 
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SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
5,187
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A joke like GTX 580 being 20% faster than a GTX 480? Like a GTX 480 being 15% faster than a HD 5870? I don't remember a 5870 being that much faster over a GTX 285 either.

Tend to compare more-so with the IHV's last chip and what improvements they are from a performance, feature and efficiency point-of-view. One of my favorite reviewers was Dave Baumann at Beyond3d before he moved to ATI , because he didn't offer a shoot out style article but more-so an in depth review of the chip itself compared to the last generation. I feel that shoot out comparison articles between competitors have their place as well.
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
8,115
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A joke like GTX 580 being 20% faster than a GTX 480? Like a GTX 480 being 15% faster than a HD 5870? I don't remember a 5870 being that much faster over a GTX 285 either.
Comparing the 480 to the 580 on the same level as what we got with GCN (Kepler), not to mention the die shrink is unexpected. Did you think about that at all before you posted it?



80 vs 100 is better than 90 vs 100, also note the 5870 was sub $400 MSRP, while the 7970 is even less of an increase over last gen, is $550 MSRP.

I don't know about you, but no matter how much I love a company I can't support their desire to charge me more for less of a performance increase than they did two years ago. Not just more, a ton more.

Isn't that amds dual card, 104%..

The only people losing right now, are us... the consumers.
 
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Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
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I'm going to bed, that was so hard to read.

Flagship from one gen to the next isn't 20% faster than last gens flagship, that's a joke and a poor one played on us all by AMD.
I see a card that is overall 41% faster than AMD's previous top end card from the prior node. A result consistent with the gains seen from either nvidia or AMD when moving from one node to the next.

You want to compare it to nvidia's current top end card from the prior node. In that respect I'll take overclocking gains seen on the 7970 to account for what AMD will respond with to what nvidia releases in the future as they have no 28nm card on the near horizon. Where I see the 7970 50% faster in Battlefield 3, 70% faster in Deus Ex:HR and 50% faster in Skyrim than an already overclocked 580, I see them ready to counter whatever nvidia releases in an impressive manner.

Again looking on the past gains moving from one node to another, in this case for nvidia going from the 285 to 480, that would put a 7970 released as stock with the earlier overclock I mentioned or one with more shaders added, right on par with whatever gains nvidia will see on 28nm if they follow recent past history.

I bought my cards after the refresh, 470 for $350, do not want, 470 for $150, give me two.
If you plan to purchase this way again you are going to be waiting for longer than a year I would think. First, for Kepler to actually release, and then, for it to be refreshed to put you in a similar pricing situation.

It's basic logic, name the last generation of Nvidia cards where performance over the previous generation didn't increase by at least 50%
As mentioned earlier, overall increases seen, GTX 285 to GTX 480 =39% increase. Here is another 8800GTX to GTX 280= 37% increase


I'm not asking for a sub $500 flagship card, I'm saying the 7970 isn't one and it's price is just AMD's new CEO doing the bulldozer style $280 8150 spat in your face.
The 7970 most definitely is a flagship card. Not sure how it relates to Bulldozer or your opinion of AMD's CEO 'spitting in your face' ? AMD's CPU performance being poor has nothing to do with their GPUs ?

Away from a lot of the banter back and forth from one team to another about price/performance on flagship cards, not enough increase, unreleased unknown parts etc. I think Tahiti is the most impressive GPU ATI/AMD has ever released in the context of how much potential it is showing to evolve into an even more impressive product.

Way to take what I said off the reservation, no need for an actual response here.
Not sure how I did that at all, I responded to your comments. If I took your comments 'off the reservation' point out to me how I did that, please ?
 
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Arzachel

Senior member
Apr 7, 2011
903
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I'm in the same boat & it's not a fun spot to be in. I'm ready to drop the coin, but the best option isn't clear yet.

I'm hoping the GTX680 is better >15% faster than GTX580, otherwise I'd have to reconsider.

If Evga would drop the 580 1.5 to ≤$399 & NV would announce the release of the GTX680 @ >15% over the 580 & a product launch by the last week in March, I'd pull the trigger this week. Otherwise, it's just a waiting game.

Here's to hoping the 680 isn't another Bulldozer flop.
Unless you need CUDA or are totally unwilling to go AMD, you could get a 1.5 GB 7950 for 399$ when it releases. It should be slightly (~5%) better then a GTX 580 with a lot lower TDP.
 
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SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
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I agree with the premise from a main-stream consumer point-of-view. However, it is the consumer that is willing to pay and let's say they priced the HD 7970 at 369 -- they probably couldn't meet demand at the start and why leave revenue potential on the table when the consumer is willing to pay?

It really is market and competition that sets pricing to me.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
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Architectural/node, I'm thinking 4xxx to 5xxx/6xxx, or 2xx to 4xx/5xx, not 4xx to 5xx.
Honestly, like others have said the jumps between single GPU kings have not been tremendous. GTX 285 to HD5870 was what, 40%? Then 5870 to GTX 480 was more like 30%.

I think the results of the 7970 are in line with other historical results. This time however, the tahiti is more future proof in the sense that it has a ton of scaling headroom, very similar to what was seen with the Fermi....there is no product yet but I could easily see a refresh in the 2nd half of '12 with signifigantly higher clockspeeds and better TDP.
 

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