China throwing down the gauntlet?

[Modelworks]

This is a tough one. If they cut off all commerce to the USA this could harm a lot of businesses. Not sure what we should do, if we sell the weapons we could start down a road leading to a rough future, if we don't sell them then it looks like China is dictating how we do things.

http://blogs.reuters.com/global/2010/02/02/chinas-tougher-than-before/

On Saturday, the Chinese Foreign Ministry summoned U.S. Ambassador John Huntsman in Beijing to express its “strong indignation” over the weapons sale, according to a ministry statement. Vice Foreign Minister He Yafei said the sale “will certainly damage China-U.S. relations, exert a very negative impact on bilateral exchanges and cooperation in many important areas and lead to consequences that neither side wishes to see.”

Policy analysts said the heightening tension is worrisome.

“China’s strong reaction to the U.S. announcement of plans to sell weapons to Taiwan is part of a tougher, more assertive tone coming out of Beijing,” said Stephanie T. Kleine-Ahlbrandt, north east Asia project director for the International Crisis Group. “The real tragedy would be if a downturn in U.S.-China relations damages international efforts — particularly through the U.N. — to cooperate on threats to international peace and security.”

At the heart of the latest spat is the Obama administration’s decision to proceed with a 2008 Bush administration plan to sell $6.4 billion in mainly defensive weapons to Taiwan (notably deferring a decision on F-16 fighter jets). Congress now has 30 days to approve the deal. U.S. weapons sales are not new. What is new is China’s self-assurance, and a brazen attitude that has emerged several times in recent months and may be contributing to tougher talk in Washington than was seen in 2008.

Though China has responded to arms sales before with tough rhetoric, this time it upped the stakes. Beijing said it would suspend military ties with the United States and threatened sanctions against American businesses. It revealed no details, but the reaction called into question the future in China for American aerospace companies like Boeing.

 

[PokerGuy]

China is not friendly, it's an enemy of the US and the free world. The sooner everyone comes to grips with that, the better. Tell them to get lost and sell even more weapons to Taiwan.

 

[brandonbull]

Please China, don't stop sending us your lead paint coated toys, toxic drywall, or tainted dog food.

 

[StageLeft]

America...
America...
America, F*** YEAH!
Coming again, to save the mother F***ing day yeah,
America, F*** YEAH!
Freedom is the only way yeah,
Terrorist your game is through cause now you have to answer too,
America, F*** YEAH!
So lick my butt, and suck on my balls,
America, F*** YEAH!
What you going to do when we come for you now,
it’s the dream that we all share; it’s the hope for tomorrow

A lot of people think and I have paroted without really looking into it but supporting its premise nonetheless, that if commerce was cutoff between US and China it would hurt the US and sink China. It would cause a depression (really, this time), but a depression in the US is much better than one in China, which by US standards is already in one (look at standard of living, it's crap for most Chinese).

All commerce will not be shutoff without a war, which neither party wants and both would find particularly unenjoyable. China is flexing their new muscle, the question is whether old Rocky has another fight in him or will just bend over this time.

 

[TechBoyJK]

They need us to buy their crap. /thread.

 

[Modelworks]

This is not going to help things .

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE6114BL20100202

Digging in on two points of discord with the United States, China vowed to impose unspecified sanctions against U.S. firms selling arms to Taiwan and said any meeting between Obama and the exiled Tibetan Buddhist leader would hurt bilateral ties.

The White House shrugged off Beijing's warning.

"The president told China's leaders during his trip last year that he would meet with the Dalai Lama and he intends to do so," White House spokesman Bill Burton told reporters.

"We expect that our relationship with China is mature enough where we can work on areas of mutual concern such as climate, the global economy and non-proliferation and discuss frankly and candidly those areas where we disagree," he told reporters traveling with Obama to New Hampshire.

 

[woolfe9999]

The Chinese government is posturing and it's full of shite. They aren't going to damage themselves economically to take a stand against our arms sales to the Taiwanese, which we've been doing for decades. You may see a couple of token sanctions measures and that's about it.

- wolf

 

[Modelworks]

The Chinese government is posturing and it's full of shite. They aren't going to damage themselves economically to take a stand against our arms sales to the Taiwanese, which we've been doing for decades. You may see a couple of token sanctions measures and that's about it.

- wolf

I think the difference between then and now is that then we really didn't need China for anything . Now though we owe them a large amount of cash and with our businesses doing poor we rely on them for more than before. I think China is playing the role of the loan shark that comes around to the local businesses and tells them they need a favor or things could get not so good.

 

[woolfe9999]

I think the difference between then and now is that then we really didn't need China for anything . Now though we owe them a large amount of cash and with our businesses doing poor we rely on them for more than before. I think China is playing the role of the loan shark that comes around to the local businesses and tells them they need a favor or things could get not so good.

You're right, but don't underestimate how much China also needs us, economically.

- wolf

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think the difference between then and now is that then we really didn't need China for anything . Now though we owe them a large amount of cash and with our businesses doing poor we rely on them for more than before. I think China is playing the role of the loan shark that comes around to the local businesses and tells them they need a favor or things could get not so good.

Well, if China is going to sanction us, then they can hold our debt for that length of time. If they want to write us off, let's write off our debt to them. Worst case is that we start fresh and get our cheap plastic junk from India or another nation.

 

[JS80]

America...
America...
America, F*** YEAH!
Coming again, to save the mother F***ing day yeah,
America, F*** YEAH!
Freedom is the only way yeah,
Terrorist your game is through cause now you have to answer too,
America, F*** YEAH!
So lick my butt, and suck on my balls,
America, F*** YEAH!
What you going to do when we come for you now,
it’s the dream that we all share; it’s the hope for tomorrow

A lot of people think and I have paroted without really looking into it but supporting its premise nonetheless, that if commerce was cutoff between US and China it would hurt the US and sink China. It would cause a depression (really, this time), but a depression in the US is much better than one in China, which by US standards is already in one (look at standard of living, it's crap for most Chinese).

All commerce will not be shutoff without a war, which neither party wants and both would find particularly unenjoyable. China is flexing their new muscle, the question is whether old Rocky has another fight in him or will just bend over this time.

Hurt to China = permanent
Hurt to US = temporary, china is replaceable. Find another 3rd world asian country that would love to take our investment capital.

But it's moot, bc it will never happen.

 

[Hacp]

Good. Last thing we need is Chinese milk and dry-wall.

 

[K1052]

Not really, they're just making their displeasure known...they'll get over it fairly soon.

They'd really be pitching a fit if we had sold Taiwan the F16s or diesel subs they've been pining for.

 

[Hacp]

Not really, they're just making their displeasure known...they'll get over it fairly soon.

They'd really be pitching a fit if we had sold Taiwan the F16s or diesel subs they've been pining for.

I say sell as much as we can. God knows we need the profits to pay down our debt.

 

[ElFenix]

I think the difference between then and now is that then we really didn't need China for anything . Now though we owe them a large amount of cash and with our businesses doing poor we rely on them for more than before. I think China is playing the role of the loan shark that comes around to the local businesses and tells them they need a favor or things could get not so good.

we have stuff and they have IOUs that are worthless as soon as they decide to impose sanctions. who's holding the pocket rockets?

 

[Modelworks]

we have stuff and they have IOUs that are worthless as soon as they decide to impose sanctions. who's holding the pocket rockets?

I was wondering about that. If we did not pay China what we owe how badly would it hurt them ? What percentage of their treasury would it effect ?

 

[Lemon law]

We also have to realize that China is going through a huge period of explosive growth and change and a large number of Chinese people are unhappy. Problems of pollution, mass dislocations, and worse yet for the communist government, rising doubts about its censorship and wisdom. In short, if the USA does nothing, the new China will become more open, and be more Western friendly, while a communist government sows the seeds of its own self destruction.

But just any other nation, nothing will unite the Chinese people more than General issues like Taiwan. Which is why feel its foolish to get into a pissing contest with China over Taiwan. As it is, a general reunification along a Singapore type autonomy model is the bloodless end result, and probably what the Chinese Government wants in the 30 year long term.

And as the Chinese economy expands, their main worry will be an equally expanding India. And to a certain extent, an expanding Russia that again starts tapping Siberian resources China also covets.

 

[xj0hnx]

Well, if China is going to sanction us, then they can hold our debt for that length of time. If they want to write us off, let's write off our debt to them. Worst case is that we start fresh and get our cheap plastic junk from India or another nation.

Or better yet, in our rescession take it as an opportunity to start creating America businesses making the crap we buy from them.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

 

[Moonbeam]

Not to worry. The big people will handle this problem.

 

[Dari]

The Chinese can suck our dicks.

 

[yllus]

Haha, if they cut off commerce? U.S. companies would switch to cheap manufacturers in India or Indonesia and life would go right on...

...But not for the Chinese. And especially not for the Chinese government - there'd be a lot of newly unemployed, pissed off workers headed for Beijing.

 

[Dari]

I was wondering about that. If we did not pay China what we owe how badly would it hurt them ? What percentage of their treasury would it effect ?

We will pay. But that's the least of their problem. Remember in 2007 when their growth rate was 12%. Then in 2009 it went to 6%. Yeah. A 50% drop in nominal terms when we started importing less. That means their govermental debt went up in order to sustain that growth while our import to them increased by 20%. IIRC, their gov't debt used to be 15%. Now it's 35% and growing. With an aging population and increase in welfare payments, anymore hiccups and they can find themselves in serious trouble because nobody will want to buy or hold Chinese debt.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

I think we should claim Tibet as a US possesion and build a super walmart in every city, that'll show um

 

[EndGame]

Hmmm, just wondering.......if China is behind ALL countries developing nuclear programs, purely for "energy purposes" as Iran maintains and China agrees with, I wonder how they would react to an effort to develope a nuclear program in Taiwan?

I mean if China is "Throwing down the gauntlet" because of potential arms sales and may not back any measures against Iran for it's nuclear program which the USA and Europe support, let's see how they would react to Taiwan developing their own nuclear program.......