China throwing down the gauntlet?

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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
A lot of people on this forum seem to think that the USA could just write off its debt to China if it pleased. If that happened, no nation would ever again lend money to the USA. USA depends so heavily on foreign debt that this would sink the nation - and the USA would be completely unable to fight wars without foreign funds.

The US has defaulted on debt before. Many companies have done it also.

In the capital markets there's a common phrase.

"There are no bad bonds, just bad prices".

You can sell anything to anybody at any price. Hell look at Russia, they defaulted on their bonds what? 12 years ago? They have new debt out there. Same thing with the Asian countries, Argentina...etc.

Quite frankly, it wouldn't be all that hard for this country to trim down, sure, more wealth would go towards healthcare and there'd be a lot more poor people have problems, but overall, we can depend without foreign debt.

Now, on the other hand, China absolutely cannot depend on anybody else in the world but the US to buy their stuff. Without the US they cannot build their middle class to create a self-sustaining consumerist society.

We could tell China to go get bent and what exactly could they do to us?
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
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This is a tough one. If they cut off all commerce to the USA this could harm a lot of businesses. Not sure what we should do, if we sell the weapons we could start down a road leading to a rough future, if we don't sell them then it looks like China is dictating how we do things.

http://blogs.reuters.com/global/2010/02/02/chinas-tougher-than-before/

There is no possible way they will cut off commerce to the US, you really don't need to worry about that. This is just political fisticuffing. China is far more dependent on our consumption than we are on their manufacturing. We would survive. Their unemployed masses WOULD revolt.

We are their largest buyer; they do not have anywhere near enough consumption to pick up where we've left off. Their consumer wealth is a little larger than France's and still smaller than Germany's. Which is way, way, WAY behind ours.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
A lot of people on this forum seem to think that the USA could just write off its debt to China if it pleased. If that happened, no nation would ever again lend money to the USA. USA depends so heavily on foreign debt that this would sink the nation - and the USA would be completely unable to fight wars without foreign funds.

no war in afghan and iraq would sink the nation? no do nothing healthcare bill, no big government program would sink the nation? I'd argue it's probably gonna be good for the nation if politicians are not given a blank check to write and keep borrowing foreign debt.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,976
141
106
Hmmm, just wondering.......if China is behind ALL countries developing nuclear programs, purely for "energy purposes" as Iran maintains and China agrees with, I wonder how they would react to an effort to develope a nuclear program in Taiwan?

I mean if China is "Throwing down the gauntlet" because of potential arms sales and may not back any measures against Iran for it's nuclear program which the USA and Europe support, let's see how they would react to Taiwan developing their own nuclear program....... ;)


more then likely taiwan already has it but will never admit. conventional wisdom says they don't but that's all part of their plausible denieability.
 

RbSX

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2002
8,351
1
76
Wrong! China doesn't only do business with the US. China can easily survive without America. I hope China take all their money back with interests.

I see you have been reading the party handbook.

The problem is China produces shit products. Fortunately for China, most people don't give a shit where their cheap, inferior, and easily replaceable shit comes from.

<non pc response>

China is like a cheap third world illegal nanny, the second she speaks back to you, you can easily replace her with another, equally hard working individual.

The horror stories I've read about Chinese manufacturing is simply shocking, putting cadmium in kids toys because it looks shiny, to insane levels of mercury.

Jeebus.

Contrarian Investor Sees Economic Crash in China

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By DAVID BARBOZA
Published: January 7, 2010

SHANGHAI — James S. Chanos built one of the largest fortunes on Wall Street by foreseeing the collapse of Enron and other highflying companies whose stories were too good to be true.
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Daniel Acker/Bloomberg News

James Chanos made his hedge fund fortune predicting problems at companies and shorting their stock.
Related
To Slow Growth, China Raises an Interest Rate (January 8, 2010)
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Now Mr. Chanos is betting against China, and is promoting his view that the China miracle has blinded investors to the risks in that economy.

Now Mr. Chanos, a wealthy hedge fund investor, is working to bust the myth of the biggest conglomerate of all: China Inc.

As most of the world bets on China to help lift the global economy out of recession, Mr. Chanos is warning that China’s hyperstimulated economy is headed for a crash, rather than the sustained boom that most economists predict. Its surging real estate sector, buoyed by a flood of speculative capital, looks like “Dubai times 1,000 — or worse,” he frets. He even suspects that Beijing is cooking its books, faking, among other things, its eye-popping growth rates of more than 8 percent.

“Bubbles are best identified by credit excesses, not valuation excesses,” he said in a recent appearance on CNBC. “And there’s no bigger credit excess than in China.” He is planning a speech later this month at the University of Oxford to drive home his point.

As America’s pre-eminent short-seller — he bets big money that companies’ strategies will fail — Mr. Chanos’s narrative runs counter to the prevailing wisdom on China. Most economists and governments expect Chinese growth momentum to continue this year, buoyed by what remains of a $586 billion government stimulus program that began last year, meant to lift exports and consumption among Chinese consumers.

Still, betting against China will not be easy. Because foreigners are restricted from investing in stocks listed inside China, Mr. Chanos has said he is searching for other ways to make his bets, including focusing on construction- and infrastructure-related companies that sell cement, coal, steel and iron ore.

Mr. Chanos, 51, whose hedge fund, Kynikos Associates, based in New York, has $6 billion under management, is hardly the only skeptic on China. But he is certainly the most prominent and vocal.

For all his record of prescience — in addition to predicting Enron’s demise, he also spotted the looming problems of Tyco International, the Boston Market restaurant chain and, more recently, home builders and some of the world’s biggest banks — his detractors say that he knows little or nothing about China or its economy and that his bearish calls should be ignored.

“I find it interesting that people who couldn’t spell China 10 years ago are now experts on China,” said Jim Rogers, who co-founded the Quantum Fund with George Soros and now lives in Singapore. “China is not in a bubble.”

Colleagues acknowledge that Mr. Chanos began studying China’s economy in earnest only last summer and sent out e-mail messages seeking expert opinion.

But he is tagging along with the bears, who see mounting evidence that China’s stimulus package and aggressive bank lending are creating artificial demand, raising the risk of a wave of nonperforming loans.

“In China, he seems to see the excesses, to the third and fourth power, that he’s been tilting against all these decades,” said Jim Grant, a longtime friend and the editor of Grant’s Interest Rate Observer, who is also bearish on China. “He homes in on the excesses of the markets and profits from them. That’s been his stock and trade.”

Mr. Chanos declined to be interviewed, citing his continuing research on China. But he has already been spreading the view that the China miracle is blinding investors to the risk that the country is producing far too much.

“The Chinese,” he warned in an interview in November with Politico.com, “are in danger of producing huge quantities of goods and products that they will be unable to sell.”

In December, he appeared on CNBC to discuss how he had already begun taking short positions, hoping to profit from a China collapse.

In recent months, a growing number of analysts, and some Chinese officials, have also warned that asset bubbles might emerge in China.

The nation’s huge stimulus program and record bank lending, estimated to have doubled last year from 2008, pumped billions of dollars into the economy, reigniting growth.

But many analysts now say that money, along with huge foreign inflows of “speculative capital,” has been funneled into the stock and real estate markets.

A result, they say, has been soaring prices and a resumption of the building boom that was under way in early 2008 — one that Mr. Chanos and others have called wasteful and overdone.

“It’s going to be a bust,” said Gordon G. Chang, whose book, “The Coming Collapse of China” (Random House), warned in 2001 of such a crash.

Friends and colleagues say Mr. Chanos is comfortable betting against the crowd — even if that crowd includes the likes of Warren E. Buffett and Wilbur L. Ross Jr., two other towering figures of the investment world.

A contrarian by nature, Mr. Chanos researches companies, pores over public filings to sift out clues to fraud and deceptive accounting, and then decides whether a stock is overvalued and ready for a fall. He has a staff of 26 in the firm’s offices in New York and London, searching for other China-related information.

“His record is impressive,” said Byron R. Wien, vice chairman of Blackstone Advisory Services. “He’s no fly-by-night charlatan. And I’m bullish on China.”

Mr. Chanos grew up in Milwaukee, one of three sons born to the owners of a chain of dry cleaners. At Yale, he was a pre-med student before switching to economics because of what he described as a passionate interest in the way markets operate.

His guiding philosophy was discovered in a book called “The Contrarian Investor,” according to an account of his life in “The Smartest Guys in the Room,” a book that chronicled Enron’s rise and downfall.

After college, he went to Wall Street, where he worked at a series of brokerage houses before starting his own firm in 1985, out of what he later said was frustration with the way Wall Street brokers promoted stocks.

At Kynikos Associates, he created a firm focused on betting on falling stock prices. His theories are summed up in testimony he gave to the House Committee on Energy and Commerce in 2002, after the Enron debacle. His firm, he said, looks for companies that appear to have overstated earnings, like Enron; were victims of a flawed business plan, like many Internet firms; or have been engaged in “outright fraud.”

That short-sellers are held in low regard by some on Wall Street, as well as Main Street, has long troubled him.

Short-sellers were blamed for intensifying market sell-offs in the fall 2008, before the practice was temporarily banned. Regulators are now trying to decide whether to restrict the practice.

Mr. Chanos often responds to critics of short-selling by pointing to the critical role they played in identifying problems at Enron, Boston Market and other “financial disasters” over the years.

“They are often the ones wearing the white hats when it comes to looking for and identifying the bad guys,” he has said.
 
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AzN

Banned
Nov 26, 2001
4,112
2
0
It is a good thing that AT allows idiots to continually post with regards to the quality of the posts.

Otherwise Azn would be banned for inability to comprehend.
I do not know where he gets his communist propoganda, but it must be good to indocrinate him so readily (or he is such an idiot)

Ha you might look in the mirror or any of these posters going for the personal attacks. You included.
 

AzN

Banned
Nov 26, 2001
4,112
2
0
Fuck them, they are a nation of thieves that only have gotten to where they are by stealing the ideas of better nations and making a cheap, shitty copy.

China earned their money. Don't know about US.

US stole land of opportunity, stole oil, gold, slaved drove to build up America. You name it America has raped it.
 

AzN

Banned
Nov 26, 2001
4,112
2
0
I see you have been reading the party handbook.

The problem is China produces shit products. Fortunately for China, most people don't give a shit where their cheap, inferior, and easily replaceable shit comes from.

<non pc response>

China is like a cheap third world illegal nanny, the second she speaks back to you, you can easily replace her with another, equally hard working individual.

The horror stories I've read about Chinese manufacturing is simply shocking, putting cadmium in kids toys because it looks shiny, to insane levels of mercury.

Jeebus.

America needs shit products. Funny you want to blame China when you want to cut corners. Your toy companies have bowed to China and apologized for designing such crap products. I think you should too. You owe trillions. :) With China holding all your bonds one can easily cripple your economy making your $$$ worthless.

Oh I do not care about your American articles based on lies and assumptions of the western mind. It is hypocrite.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
AzN the grown-ups are talking. Go back to your room and play video games. We'll call you down when it's time for supper. Now off you go.
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
I hope this happens. There are at least three very positive things that can come from this:

1. US companies stop offshoring their production to Chinese kids making a dime an hour in a Chinese sweatshop, and the US actually starts making some of their own stuff again.

2. We won't have to worry about whether or not that next cheap Chinese piece of junk we buy is toxic and/or defective.

3. China will stop buying our debt, so that should slow or stop this insane deficit spending.

Possible negative:

1. Cost of some goods could possibly go up as companies adjust.

All-in-all, I say DO IT!
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
This is just the culmination of a lot of Chinese disrespect, I think the US government, US businesses, and the international community have done a lot in order to appease the Chinese and forge a positive relationship.

What I think we're coming to realize is that China isn't being an honest partner on a whole host of issues. They continually blunt any attempts to curtail Iran, unapologetically manipulate their currency, engage in unprecedented levels of government funded corporate espionage not to mention their humanitarian issues in general including a virtual police state.

There's no give and take occurring and it's not in our interest to continue building upon a friendship that is so one-sided.
 

Juncar

Member
Jul 5, 2009
130
0
76
The level of prejudice in this part of the AT forum is surprising...
Maybe you guys should take some courses in sociology and look up dependency theory or world system theory to see why people in the non-western nations have different views. Of course they are all theories but, gives you something to analyze about.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Just announce that the west believes in free trade. What has China done for Taiwan in the last 50 years?
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
10
0
China earned their money. Don't know about US.

US stole land of opportunity, stole oil, gold, slaved drove to build up America. You name it America has raped it.

America needs shit products. Funny you want to blame China when you want to cut corners. Your toy companies have bowed to China and apologized for designing such crap products. I think you should too. You owe trillions. :) With China holding all your bonds one can easily cripple your economy making your $$$ worthless.

Oh I do not care about your American articles based on lies and assumptions of the western mind. It is hypocrite.

If I don't take you seriously (and I don't take idiots seriously), you're hilarious.
 

AzN

Banned
Nov 26, 2001
4,112
2
0
The level of prejudice in this part of the AT forum is surprising...
Maybe you guys should take some courses in sociology and look up dependency theory or world system theory to see why people in the non-western nations have different views. Of course they are all theories but, gives you something to analyze about.

Thank you Juncar. Lot of xenophobic Americans always America this and that. How godly and saints they are with FREEDOM! lol They automatically point and make pun when non-western nationalist speak up.

US doesn't have the balls to face China directly so what do they do? Arm Taiwan. How typical... spineless...US can be.... These kind of tactics is getting old. China should just invade Taiwan and get it over with. US will sit on the side lines if China actually did anything. Taiwan is Chinese territory.
 
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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Thank you Juncar. Lot of xenophobic Americans always America this and that. How godly and saints they are with FREEDOM! lol They automatically point and make pun when non-western nationalist speak up.

US doesn't have the balls to face China directly so what do they do? Arm Taiwan. How typical... spineless...US can be.... These kind of tactics is getting old. China should just invade Taiwan and get it over with. US will sit on the side lines if China actually did anything. Taiwan is Chinese territory.

Does it take a lot of work to be so stupid?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
To Americans you might ask these xenophobic questions but everywhere else in the world I'm a genius.

Yeah, a genius in your own mind.

1. Taiwan isn't Chinese territory any more than the US is British territory. Humans have a free ability to choose their own form of government rule.

2. Why would America attack China? We don't need to.

3. Even if we did attack China, China would lose. It's military doesn't even come close to being able to fend off the combined-arms attack we can bring against them.
 

RbSX

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2002
8,351
1
76
America needs shit products. Funny you want to blame China when you want to cut corners. Your toy companies have bowed to China and apologized for designing such crap products. I think you should too. You owe trillions. :) With China holding all your bonds one can easily cripple your economy making your $$$ worthless.

Oh I do not care about your American articles based on lies and assumptions of the western mind. It is hypocrite.

Designing crap products? The designs aren't crap, what you Chinese use to make them is tragic.

The article is in the New York Times, arguably the most respectable news paper in the world, but I forgot it's not from your state media which would tell you that breathing air was bad if it didn't suit the government's needs.

In addition, I'm not American, and go take some Engrish lessons.
 

GuitarDaddy

Lifer
Nov 9, 2004
11,465
1
0
Thank you Juncar. Lot of xenophobic Americans always America this and that. How godly and saints they are with FREEDOM! lol They automatically point and make pun when non-western nationalist speak up.

US doesn't have the balls to face China directly so what do they do? Arm Taiwan. How typical... spineless...US can be.... These kind of tactics is getting old. China should just invade Taiwan and get it over with. US will sit on the side lines if China actually did anything. Taiwan is Chinese territory.


Why should US face China directly? US has no dispute with China. China has a long history of problems with Taiwan that have nothing to do with the US. China claims to own Taiwan, yet they can't seem to control their unruly possesion. And how is this a US problem?

If you can't convince the people of Taiwan that they are owned by China how do you expect the rest of the world to respect Chinas soverignty over Taiwan.

And I suspect if China had the will and the means to invade Taiwan they would have already done it. Just big talk
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
I really don't understand how selling arms to the Taiwanese complies with our own stated "One China" policy.

Whatever they intend to purchase is obviously available from other sources. It might be smart for everyone concerned if the Taiwanese did just that.

But, of course, nobody's offered that the Bush Admin, or the current one, for that matter, is smart enough to look beyond the end of their nose and past the immediate profits wrt foreign policy...

The rest of this thread is mostly speculation and the usual chest-thumping. Who here really thinks that American capitalists give a damn about their sentiments or the welfare of this country, anyway? They'll ride this horse into the dirt just as quickly as any other, seeing as how we're letting them do it...
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
10
0
Thank you Juncar. Lot of xenophobic Americans always America this and that. How godly and saints they are with FREEDOM! lol They automatically point and make pun when non-western nationalist speak up.

US doesn't have the balls to face China directly so what do they do? Arm Taiwan. How typical... spineless...US can be.... These kind of tactics is getting old. China should just invade Taiwan and get it over with. US will sit on the side lines if China actually did anything. Taiwan is Chinese territory.

Taiwan is a country. Fuck the Chinese.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
Why should US face China directly? US has no dispute with China. China has a long history of problems with Taiwan that have nothing to do with the US. China claims to own Taiwan, yet they can't seem to control their unruly possesion. And how is this a US problem?

If you can't convince the people of Taiwan that they are owned by China how do you expect the rest of the world to respect Chinas soverignty over Taiwan.

And I suspect if China had the will and the means to invade Taiwan they would have already done it. Just big talk

Good point. And why would the Taiwanese want to be part of China? They have a top tier standard of living, whereas China is in the crapper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

(Scroll down to non-UN member list for Taiwan)

- wolf
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
We need to make it clear to the Chinese that all sectors of their export industry will be fair game for tariffs if they impose sanctions on US companies.