Child support in the era of abortion

[cybrsage]

It should be assumed that the man is not responsible for the unborn child unless he wants to be, just like it is assumed the woman is not responsible for the unborn child unless she wants to be.

You know, equality before the law and all that.

 

[sixone]

Can you sign a pre-sexual contract like that?

Why not?

 

[sixone]

It should be assumed that the man is not responsible for the unborn child unless he wants to be, just like it is assumed the woman is not responsible for the unborn child unless she wants to be.

You know, equality before the law and all that.

"Before" is the operative word. You break it, you buy it.

 

[Attic]

I don't see any reason why there needs to be a fair solution to this problem. Men get the short end of the stick here, women get it elsewhere.

 

[cybrsage]

"Before" is the operative word. You break it, you buy it.

If the law did not allow women to freely remove their responsibility, I would not say men should also be able to freely remove their responsibility as well.

Since the law says women, prior to sex, are assumed to be able to dump their responsibility at a whim, it should also say men are assumed to be able to do the same.

There should be equality under the law.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Why not?

I suppose it would be the same as a sperm-bank. Not like your on the hook for the babies made from the lab, right?

 

[CitizenKain]

I don't see any reason why there needs to be a fair solution to this problem. Men get the short end of the stick here, women get it elsewhere.

Because the people who have an issue with this are only concerned with money. Also they generally hate women, but that's usually secondary.

 

[Blackjack200]

Can you sign a pre-sexual contract like that?

You can sign anything you want. There is probably not a single judge in the country that wouldn't ball that contract up and wipe his ass with it if the woman got pregnant, had the baby, and sued for child support.

Child support is for the benefit of the child, and the woman has no right to sign it away.

 

[nonlnear]

nm

 

[Rainsford]

It should be assumed that the man is not responsible for the unborn child unless he wants to be, just like it is assumed the woman is not responsible for the unborn child unless she wants to be.

You know, equality before the law and all that.

Except paying for child support and being pregnant aren't equal to begin with. What you're basically asking is that the legal system try to CREATE equality by declaring two different circumstances to be "equal".

I'm all for equality based on gender. I think child support burdens should fall equally on both the mother and the father. Abortion doesn't factor into that equality, since it deals with something that ONLY applies to women.

 

[cybrsage]

I suppose it would be the same as a sperm-bank. Not like your on the hook for the babies made from the lab, right?

Actually, while it defies logic, unless the Sperm Bank has both you and the woman sign a release form, you ARE on the hook. Some men have been sued for child support and LOST!

 

[cybrsage]

Except paying for child support and being pregnant aren't equal to begin with. What you're basically asking is that the legal system try to CREATE equality by declaring two different circumstances to be "equal".

I'm all for equality based on gender. I think child support burdens should fall equally on both the mother and the father. Abortion doesn't factor into that equality, since it deals with something that ONLY applies to women.

So the father does not lose a child when the woman has an abortion against his wishes?

 

[cybrsage]

You can sign anything you want. There is probably not a single judge in the country that wouldn't ball that contract up and wipe his ass with it if the woman got pregnant, had the baby, and sued for child support.

Child support is for the benefit of the child, and the woman has no right to sign it away.

She can sign it away during a divorce settlement.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

Oh for crying out loud.


You want equality? Actual equality? Lets think about what's actually required for equally.

First, lets deal with your "Let's stop the woman from having an abortion if the man wants the child." We'll OK this - but we're going to make it actual equality. Pregnancy involves huge hormonal surges, major discomfort, and a chance of death. In this case, the man blocking the abortion will block it - but will be subject to 9 months of hormonal injections roughly equivalent to the discomfort cause by pregnancy. He'll have a pouch embedded in his flesh which will be consistently enlarged with weight and volume to match that of a pregnant woman. Should the woman opt for a natural childbirth, he'll have torture methods applied to match the pain cause by childbirth, and at the end if a random number generator comes up 1 in 1000, he'll be euthanized to simulate the risk of death during childbirth.

But we're not equal yet. Now a man can force a woman to go through those hardships as long as he's willing to do so too. A woman needs to have the same rights, so if a woman chooses to keep a baby, the man will have the above treatments applied whether or not he wishes to keep that baby. After all, if a man can make a woman go through that at the cost of going through it himself, a woman can make a man go through it at that same cost.


Now we have something resembling actual equality in these issues. Oh, what a wonderful improvement of the system for men! Now we're risking our finances AND suffering AND death!

 

[Dr. Zaus]

^Yep, I"m off the idea of equality; mostly because it's impossible...^

You can sign anything you want. There is probably not a single judge in the country that wouldn't ball that contract up and wipe his ass with it if the woman got pregnant, had the baby, and sued for child support.

Child support is for the benefit of the child, and the woman has no right to sign it away.

Actually, while it defies logic, unless the Sperm Bank has both you and the woman sign a release form, you ARE on the hook. Some men have been sued for child support and LOST!

Well hell, I'm wrong.

 

[Munky]

Oh for crying out loud.


You want equality? Actual equality? Lets think about what's actually required for equally.

First, lets deal with your "Let's stop the woman from having an abortion if the man wants the child." We'll OK this - but we're going to make it actual equality. Pregnancy involves huge hormonal surges, major discomfort, and a chance of death. In this case, the man blocking the abortion will block it - but will be subject to 9 months of hormonal injections roughly equivalent to the discomfort cause by pregnancy. He'll have a pouch embedded in his flesh which will be consistently enlarged with weight and volume to match that of a pregnant woman. Should the woman opt for a natural childbirth, he'll have torture methods applied to match the pain cause by childbirth, and at the end if a random number generator comes up 1 in 1000, he'll be euthanized to simulate the risk of death during childbirth.

But we're not equal yet. Now a man can force a woman to go through those hardships as long as he's willing to do so too. A woman needs to have the same rights, so if a woman chooses to keep a baby, the man will have the above treatments applied whether or not he wishes to keep that baby. After all, if a man can make a woman go through that at the cost of going through it himself, a woman can make a man go through it at that same cost.


Now we have something resembling actual equality in these issues. Oh, what a wonderful improvement of the system for men! Now we're risking our finances AND suffering AND death!

So you insist on punishing men because women are born with a uterus?

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

That's not punishing men. That's making *actual* equality. For the equivalent control that's being asked for, equivalent risk and discomfort must come along. Otherwise the equality is a fiction.

Personally, I'd much rather say "Hey, I've got a penis instead of a Uterus, what a lucky break for me!" and stop complaining about women having one more way out of a pregnancy, since I'm damned sure men get the good side of that one.

 

[Munky]

That's not punishing men. That's making *actual* equality. For the equivalent control that's being asked for, equivalent risk and discomfort must come along. Otherwise the equality is a fiction.

Personally, I'd much rather say "Hey, I've got a penis instead of a Uterus, what a lucky break for me!" and stop complaining about women having one more way out of a pregnancy, since I'm damned sure men get the good side of that one.

Forcing equality against nature and biology is a pretty dumb idea. The sooner people would realize this, the better. We are talking about equal responsibility here. If the woman has a right to walk away from parenthood, why does she also have the right to force it on others?

 

[Ninjahedge]

If you fucked it, you are partially responsible for the result.

Nobody forced your dick to perform.

Now while the woman's choice may be morally questionable, it is NOT the man's "choice" to go through to term. He can offer his opinion, but that is that. he is stuck with the result of his actions, like it or not.

In the game of "equality", it only exists when the subject you are talking about puts both players on an even field. Sexual "equality" just does not play in the root biological issues of sex and pregnancy.

Crying "no fair!" and siting women's rights issues (in general) bears no weight in this discussion.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

Forcing equality against nature and biology is a pretty dumb idea. The sooner people would realize this, the better. We are talking about equal responsibility here. If the woman has a right to walk away from parenthood, why does she also have the right to force it on others?

No we are NOT talking about equal responsibility. Men do not physically carry that baby, and therefore their responsibility is not equal. Not even close.

They've got the uterus, so they get extra control. It's in their body. What you're trying to do IS forcing equality against nature and biology.

 

[CitizenKain]

Forcing equality against nature and biology is a pretty dumb idea. The sooner people would realize this, the better. We are talking about equal responsibility here. If the woman has a right to walk away from parenthood, why does she also have the right to force it on others?

Because if the child is born then neither side gets to walk away from parenthood. How is that unfair exactly? Is this too difficult for you to grasp?

 

[Munky]

No we are NOT talking about equal responsibility. Men do not physically carry that baby, and therefore their responsibility is not equal. Not even close.

They've got the uterus, so they get extra control. It's in their body. What you're trying to do IS forcing equality against nature and biology.

They may have the control and uterus, but they are still responsible for their own decisions. Claiming otherwise is nothing but blatantly handing a "pussy pass" card to the woman, which absolves her of responsibility and consequences of her actions solely because she's got a uterus.

 

[Munky]

Because if the child is born then neither side gets to walk away from parenthood. How is that unfair exactly? Is this too difficult for you to grasp?

The child is born based on whose choice? Both of them, or just her choice?

 

[Ninjahedge]

The child is born based on whose choice? Both of them, or just her choice?

Both, but primarily hers.

You still do not get it? It has been said 9 different ways. Final word is the woman's.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

They may have the control and uterus, but they are still responsible for their own decisions. Claiming otherwise is nothing but blatantly handing a "pussy pass" card to the woman, which absolves her of responsibility and consequences of her actions solely because she's got a uterus.

Her life is at risk from either carrying a pregnancy to term or having an abortion.

'Absolves her of responsibility and consequences'. Well, except for the whole 'invasive medical procedure with the possibility of death' thing. Cause that's certainly not a consequence.