Cheney enters 'torture' memos row

[shira]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: shira
And even if somehow a prisoner KNEW for sure that he wasn't going to die or be damaged by the ordeal, that doesn't get waterboarding off the hook: Because in those moments when the prisoner cannot breathe, the irrational, instinctive mind takes over. The prisoner struggles to survive, to BREATHE, to LIVE. There's no cool, rational thought at those moments. It's all animal terror. That's "severe mental pain and suffering." That's TORTURE.

No, it's not torture. It's being scared. Instilling fear during an interrogation without involving any severe mental or physical pain is NOT torture no matter how many in here wring their hands about it and insist it is.

Think about the absurdity of what you're asserting: The prisoner is so scared, so terrified, that he feels compelled to reveal his secrets in order to make us cease whatever it is we're doing to him. Yet that level of fear and terror is, according to you, NOT "severe mental pain and suffering."

Amazing!! Mental pain and suffering must be at least (say) an 8.5 on the "pain scale" to equate to "severe" (= torture). But the human mind breaks and desperately reveals its secrets (to make the pain stop) when the mental pain and suffering reaches only a 7.5 or 8.0. What astounding good fortune for U.S. interrogators!

Torture? No way; we've got it dialed in - it's an exact science, and WE decide what constitutes "severe pain" to our detainees. We have ways of telling when "severe" is reached, and we always stop before that state is reached. That fact that he's screaming out in agony and desperation doesn't mean that what he's feeling is "severe pain." WE know, not him.

Who can believe such BS?

Not even you can.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: eskimospy
There's no point to this. It doesn't matter how many organizations and experts say waterboarding is torture, TLC is a prisoner of his own circular logic.

I don't care how many abortions rights activists scream that abortion is MURDER either. It doesn't make it true. The fact of this comes down to proving that our specific method of waterboarding is torture, not a bunch of screaming meemies shouting in unison that "WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE." I'm positive you know this as well but you're too afraid to walk away from your talking points because you'd have no real defense if you actually discussed the specifics of our methods and tried to show where it runs afoul of the law.

At least Shira has the nads to do that. You should learn something from him.

Abortion rights activists are not recognized experts on what does or does not constitute murder.

This isn't even challenging anymore.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: shira
And even if somehow a prisoner KNEW for sure that he wasn't going to die or be damaged by the ordeal, that doesn't get waterboarding off the hook: Because in those moments when the prisoner cannot breathe, the irrational, instinctive mind takes over. The prisoner struggles to survive, to BREATHE, to LIVE. There's no cool, rational thought at those moments. It's all animal terror. That's "severe mental pain and suffering." That's TORTURE.

No, it's not torture. It's being scared. Instilling fear during an interrogation without involving any severe mental or physical pain is NOT torture no matter how many in here wring their hands about it and insist it is.

Think about the absurdity of what you're asserting: The prisoner is so scared, so terrified, that he feels compelled to reveal his secrets in order to make us cease whatever it is we're doing to him. Yet that level of fear and terror is, according to you, NOT "severe mental pain and suffering."

Amazing!! Mental pain and suffering must be at least (say) an 8.5 on the "pain scale" to equate to "severe" (= torture). But the human mind breaks and desperately reveals its secrets (to make the pain stop) when the mental pain and suffering reaches only a 7.5 or 8.0. What astounding good fortune for U.S. interrogators!

Torture? No way; we've got it dialed in - it's an exact science, and WE decide what constitutes "severe pain" to our detainees. We have ways of telling when "severe" is reached, and we always stop before that state is reached. That fact that he's screaming out in agony and desperation doesn't mean that what he's feeling is "severe pain." WE know, not him.

Who can believe such BS?

Not even you can.

Not only that, but these terrorists are such hardened jihadists that they are immune to most forms of questioning, thus necessitating 'enhanced interrogation'. They will absolutely refuse to crack unless they are made moderately uncomfortable! (because that's all we're doing, amirite?)

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: shira
And even if somehow a prisoner KNEW for sure that he wasn't going to die or be damaged by the ordeal, that doesn't get waterboarding off the hook: Because in those moments when the prisoner cannot breathe, the irrational, instinctive mind takes over. The prisoner struggles to survive, to BREATHE, to LIVE. There's no cool, rational thought at those moments. It's all animal terror. That's "severe mental pain and suffering." That's TORTURE.

No, it's not torture. It's being scared. Instilling fear during an interrogation without involving any severe mental or physical pain is NOT torture no matter how many in here wring their hands about it and insist it is.

Think about the absurdity of what you're asserting: The prisoner is so scared, so terrified, that he feels compelled to reveal his secrets in order to make us cease whatever it is we're doing to him. Yet that level of fear and terror is, according to you, NOT "severe mental pain and suffering."

Amazing!! Mental pain and suffering must be at least (say) an 8.5 on the "pain scale" to equate to "severe" (= torture). But the human mind breaks and desperately reveals its secrets (to make the pain stop) when the mental pain and suffering reaches only a 7.5 or 8.0. What astounding good fortune for U.S. interrogators!

Torture? No way; we've got it dialed in - it's an exact science, and WE decide what constitutes "severe pain" to our detainees. We have ways of telling when "severe" is reached, and we always stop before that state is reached. That fact that he's screaming out in agony and desperation doesn't mean that what he's feeling is "severe pain." WE know, not him.

Who can believe such BS?

Not even you can.

Not only that, but these terrorists are such hardened jihadists that they are immune to most forms of questioning, thus necessitating 'enhanced interrogation'. They will absolutely refuse to crack unless they are made moderately uncomfortable! (because that's all we're doing, amirite?)

Probably.. although we really should torture them.. you know, like make them listen to Britney Spears and such.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: shira
And even if somehow a prisoner KNEW for sure that he wasn't going to die or be damaged by the ordeal, that doesn't get waterboarding off the hook: Because in those moments when the prisoner cannot breathe, the irrational, instinctive mind takes over. The prisoner struggles to survive, to BREATHE, to LIVE. There's no cool, rational thought at those moments. It's all animal terror. That's "severe mental pain and suffering." That's TORTURE.

No, it's not torture. It's being scared. Instilling fear during an interrogation without involving any severe mental or physical pain is NOT torture no matter how many in here wring their hands about it and insist it is.

Think about the absurdity of what you're asserting: The prisoner is so scared, so terrified, that he feels compelled to reveal his secrets in order to make us cease whatever it is we're doing to him. Yet that level of fear and terror is, according to you, NOT "severe mental pain and suffering."

Amazing!! Mental pain and suffering must be at least (say) an 8.5 on the "pain scale" to equate to "severe" (= torture). But the human mind breaks and desperately reveals its secrets (to make the pain stop) when the mental pain and suffering reaches only a 7.5 or 8.0. What astounding good fortune for U.S. interrogators!

Torture? No way; we've got it dialed in - it's an exact science, and WE decide what constitutes "severe pain" to our detainees. We have ways of telling when "severe" is reached, and we always stop before that state is reached. That fact that he's screaming out in agony and desperation doesn't mean that what he's feeling is "severe pain." WE know, not him.

Who can believe such BS?

Not even you can.

The question you're asking can be answered. What is the legal definition of severe physical and mental pain? Does scared shitless qualify as torture under that definition? Does being severely uncomfortable for a brief time qualify? Does inflicting fear and terror that doesn't leave a lasting physical or mental mark qualify as torture under that definition? That seems to be what you are implying. I have to disagree and I think my case would be stronger than one that primarily relies on an emotional argument, as yours does above.

Is there going to be some pain involved and some temporary trauma? Sure. You''re arguing about the top of the pain scale. So how far down must it in the opposite direction be for you to agree that it's not legally torture? A slap on the wrist is OK? A poke in the ribs? Or can we not even do that and must just look at them with a mean face?

If I were President, you know what I'd do? I'd put all you guys in charge of providing intelligence for this country and keeping it safe. You could go about gathering that intel however you want - with diplomacy, honesty, and never, ever using anything that could even be construed as torture. It'd be a great way to demonstrate the practical differences between idealism and reality to you all.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: shira
And even if somehow a prisoner KNEW for sure that he wasn't going to die or be damaged by the ordeal, that doesn't get waterboarding off the hook: Because in those moments when the prisoner cannot breathe, the irrational, instinctive mind takes over. The prisoner struggles to survive, to BREATHE, to LIVE. There's no cool, rational thought at those moments. It's all animal terror. That's "severe mental pain and suffering." That's TORTURE.

No, it's not torture. It's being scared. Instilling fear during an interrogation without involving any severe mental or physical pain is NOT torture no matter how many in here wring their hands about it and insist it is.

Think about the absurdity of what you're asserting: The prisoner is so scared, so terrified, that he feels compelled to reveal his secrets in order to make us cease whatever it is we're doing to him. Yet that level of fear and terror is, according to you, NOT "severe mental pain and suffering."

Amazing!! Mental pain and suffering must be at least (say) an 8.5 on the "pain scale" to equate to "severe" (= torture). But the human mind breaks and desperately reveals its secrets (to make the pain stop) when the mental pain and suffering reaches only a 7.5 or 8.0. What astounding good fortune for U.S. interrogators!

Torture? No way; we've got it dialed in - it's an exact science, and WE decide what constitutes "severe pain" to our detainees. We have ways of telling when "severe" is reached, and we always stop before that state is reached. That fact that he's screaming out in agony and desperation doesn't mean that what he's feeling is "severe pain." WE know, not him.

Who can believe such BS?

Not even you can.

The question you're asking can be answered. What is the legal definition of severe physical and mental pain? Does scared shitless qualify as torture under that definition? Does being severely uncomfortable for a brief time qualify? Does inflicting fear and terror that doesn't leave a lasting physical or mental mark qualify as torture under that definition? That seems to be what you are implying. I have to disagree and I think my case would be stronger than one that primarily relies on an emotional argument, as yours does above.

Is there going to be some pain involved and some temporary trauma? Sure. You''re arguing about the top of the pain scale. So how far down must it in the opposite direction be for you to agree that it's not legally torture? A slap on the wrist is OK? A poke in the ribs? Or can we not even do that and must just look at them with a mean face?

If I were President, you know what I'd do? I'd put all you guys in charge of providing intelligence for this country and keeping it safe. You could go about gathering that intel however you want - with diplomacy, honesty, and never, ever using anything that could even be construed as torture. It'd be a great way to demonstrate the practical differences between idealism and reality to you all.

or....whats the definition of "pain"?

or

whats the definition of "mental"

or whats the definition of "definition"??

LOL!!!

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: eskimospy
There's no point to this. It doesn't matter how many organizations and experts say waterboarding is torture, TLC is a prisoner of his own circular logic.

I don't care how many abortions rights activists scream that abortion is MURDER either. It doesn't make it true. The fact of this comes down to proving that our specific method of waterboarding is torture, not a bunch of screaming meemies shouting in unison that "WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE." I'm positive you know this as well but you're too afraid to walk away from your talking points because you'd have no real defense if you actually discussed the specifics of our methods and tried to show where it runs afoul of the law.

At least Shira has the nads to do that. You should learn something from him.

Abortion rights activists are not recognized experts on what does or does not constitute murder.

This isn't even challenging anymore.

You mean there are no lawyers that are abortions rights activists and don't fight for their cause?

Seems, in haste, you forgot to engage your brain in your fruitless pursuit of trying to lay a smackdown on me....again. Oopsie!

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: OrByte
or....whats the definition of "pain"?

or

whats the definition of "mental"

or whats the definition of "definition"??

LOL!!!

Based on your reply I'm getting a good idea of the definition of "mental."

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: OrByte
or....whats the definition of "pain"?

or

whats the definition of "mental"

or whats the definition of "definition"??

LOL!!!

Based on your reply I'm getting a good idea of the definition of "mental."

ohhh you wound me!

you really do.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Looks like the GOP have decided that since the Dems wanted a battle, they'll get one:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30440910/

An interesting part:

Last week, the leader of the House, Speaker Nancy Pelosi , said she had been briefed on the interrogation program in late 2002 but not about the use of harsh methods.

"We were not ? I repeat ? were not told that waterboarding or any of these other enhanced interrogation methods were used," said Pelosi, a Democrat.

No problem, Nancy. Release the documents and let's see if they measure up to your claim.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Looks like the GOP have decided that since the Dems wanted a battle, they'll get one:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30440910/

An interesting part:

Last week, the leader of the House, Speaker Nancy Pelosi , said she had been briefed on the interrogation program in late 2002 but not about the use of harsh methods.

"We were not ? I repeat ? were not told that waterboarding or any of these other enhanced interrogation methods were used," said Pelosi, a Democrat.

No problem, Nancy. Release the documents and let's see if they measure up to your claim.

Seems like she admitted right there its not torture.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: eskimospy
There's no point to this. It doesn't matter how many organizations and experts say waterboarding is torture, TLC is a prisoner of his own circular logic.

I don't care how many abortions rights activists scream that abortion is MURDER either. It doesn't make it true. The fact of this comes down to proving that our specific method of waterboarding is torture, not a bunch of screaming meemies shouting in unison that "WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE." I'm positive you know this as well but you're too afraid to walk away from your talking points because you'd have no real defense if you actually discussed the specifics of our methods and tried to show where it runs afoul of the law.

At least Shira has the nads to do that. You should learn something from him.

Abortion rights activists are not recognized experts on what does or does not constitute murder.

This isn't even challenging anymore.

You mean there are no lawyers that are abortions rights activists and don't fight for their cause?

Seems, in haste, you forgot to engage your brain in your fruitless pursuit of trying to lay a smackdown on me....again. Oopsie!

Lawyers are intended to advocate for their clients, not act as objective sources of fact. Oopsie indeed.

You fucking moron.

EDIT: What's super pathetic about this is that you're trying to take a small minority of lawyers (the ones who say abortion is murder) and use them to discredit the overwhelming opinion of lawyers who say what we're doing is torture. Classic diversionary tactic used by people who know they are losing. Pathetic.

PS: You fucking moron.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
PS: You fucking moron.

Mods, personal attack

Take a history lesson. Jackson relocated tens of thousands of Native Americans onto reservations. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus. The god of the Democratic Party FDR rounded up Japanese Americans and placed them in internment camps. Truman dropped two nuclear bombs on harmless civilians. Clinton bombed an aspirin factory.

And yes, George W. Bush dunked a few terrorists in water.

Get over yourself.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: eskimospy
PS: You fucking moron.

Mods, personal attack

Take a history lesson. Jackson killed thousands of Native Americans with the Trail of Tears.

Fixed.

Nice false choice, btw. You do receive the Moronic Logical Fallacy of the Week Award.

 

[Lemon law]

If we can get back to this the GOP strikes back link posted by TLC, its somewhat a strange two part defense of (1) These are simply things human do to other humans. (2) Since the dems were somehow briefed on the torture, they are equally guilty.

We can see by this thread, that the first question is how far back to we go? We are already back some 180 years to the days of Andrew Jackson and we are not even warmed up yet. But even then, that may have been theft of land, but not torture.

Surely if we go back far enough back in history, we can find other abusers who just loved to torture people and took sadistic delight in it. May I suggest the Spanish Inquisition, but I should not assert I have a monopoly on ideas, let other have a go at how far back in history we have to go to find the like of these GWB&co morally bankrupt torture practitioners.

Once we conclude that the first part of the defense goes nowhere, we have to consider the more potent the dems are equally guilty part. As various GOP leaders, who knew as much as democratic counterparts about actual torture PRACTICES are now prepared to say, the dems are guilty so punish them and not us even though we are equally guilty. While GWB&co, the actual briefers, have told so many lies and different versions of events to the world, to
congress in specific, and to the American people, that its going to be hard to trust the accusers regarding exactly what anyone in congress was told.

But that argument may also go to the core differences between the republican and democratic parties. Democrats are far more willing to get rid of their rascals, the GOP will go lock step all the way in trying to hang on to some real toxic individuals.

So like Harvey, I say bring it on TLC, lets get the truth out.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: eskimospy
There's no point to this. It doesn't matter how many organizations and experts say waterboarding is torture, TLC is a prisoner of his own circular logic.

I don't care how many abortions rights activists scream that abortion is MURDER either. It doesn't make it true. The fact of this comes down to proving that our specific method of waterboarding is torture, not a bunch of screaming meemies shouting in unison that "WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE." I'm positive you know this as well but you're too afraid to walk away from your talking points because you'd have no real defense if you actually discussed the specifics of our methods and tried to show where it runs afoul of the law.

At least Shira has the nads to do that. You should learn something from him.

Abortion rights activists are not recognized experts on what does or does not constitute murder.

This isn't even challenging anymore.

You mean there are no lawyers that are abortions rights activists and don't fight for their cause?

Seems, in haste, you forgot to engage your brain in your fruitless pursuit of trying to lay a smackdown on me....again. Oopsie!

Lawyers are intended to advocate for their clients, not act as objective sources of fact. Oopsie indeed.

You fucking moron.

EDIT: What's super pathetic about this is that you're trying to take a small minority of lawyers (the ones who say abortion is murder) and use them to discredit the overwhelming opinion of lawyers who say what we're doing is torture. Classic diversionary tactic used by people who know they are losing. Pathetic.

PS: You fucking moron.

Right. Because lawyers never have their own opinions and are never pro-life.

Then you try to argue that pro-life lawyers are a small minority. Really? What's the percentage, since you seem to imply that you know?

Oopsie. e-spy forgot to engage his wetware...again. The angry sputtering coming from him is heeelarious though.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: eskimospy
PS: You fucking moron.

Mods, personal attack

He lives for this kind of shit...it's really pathetic.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Looks like the GOP have decided that since the Dems wanted a battle, they'll get one:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30440910/

An interesting part:

Last week, the leader of the House, Speaker Nancy Pelosi , said she had been briefed on the interrogation program in late 2002 but not about the use of harsh methods.

"We were not ? I repeat ? were not told that waterboarding or any of these other enhanced interrogation methods were used," said Pelosi, a Democrat.

No problem, Nancy. Release the documents and let's see if they measure up to your claim.

Good, let's see where this leads.

Top House Republicans are calling for the CIA to release to Congress its records on the classified briefings it conducted for lawmakers on its harsh interrogation program in an effort to establish what Democrats knew about those techniques.

 

[Lemon law]

As Eskimo spy points out, "Top House Republicans are calling for the CIA to release to Congress its records on the classified briefings it conducted for lawmakers on its harsh interrogation program in an effort to establish what Democrats knew about those techniques."

Lets see, will the top house GOP leaders somehow try to assert GWB&co only briefed democrats while keeping its own top congressional GOP leadership in the dark?

The more I look at this argument, the more strange the argument becomes.

 

[Thump553]

The law for those classified briefings is that the Senators/Congresspersons could not take notes and could note discuss the briefing with anyone else, even their staff. The legislative branch (stupidly) greatly limited their power to do anything to counter White House excesses when they adopted that law.

I find it especially ironic that the GOP is now calling for public disclosure of the content of those briefings, when just a few years ago they constituted the highest level of secrecy-in order to protect the country. I guess the possibility of scoring political points is more important than protecting the country-to one set of hypocrites.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: Thump553
The law for those classified briefings is that the Senators/Congresspersons could not take notes and could note discuss the briefing with anyone else, even their staff. The legislative branch (stupidly) greatly limited their power to do anything to counter White House excesses when they adopted that law.

I find it especially ironic that the GOP is now calling for public disclosure of the content of those briefings, when just a few years ago they constituted the highest level of secrecy-in order to protect the country. I guess the possibility of scoring political points is more important than protecting the country-to one set of hypocrites.

Obama is the one who started this and opened Pandora's Box. Or has that little fact slipped your mind?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: eskimospy
PS: You fucking moron.

Mods, personal attack

He lives for this kind of shit...it's really pathetic.

Awww, look who showed up to pull my pigtails again!

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Right. Because lawyers never have their own opinions and are never pro-life.

Then you try to argue that pro-life lawyers are a small minority. Really? What's the percentage, since you seem to imply that you know?

Oopsie. e-spy forgot to engage his wetware...again. The angry sputtering coming from him is heeelarious though.

I never said lawyers were never pro life. Support for elective abortion increases with education level however and so it is reasonable that a significant majority of lawyers are pro-choice. 'Overwhelming majority' is probably too much though.

The fact remains that you're still trying to use minority opinions as a means by which to discredit recognized experts. If the AMA was yelling about how abortion was murder, THAT would be a good way to do it.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: eskimospy
PS: You fucking moron.

Mods, personal attack

Take a history lesson. Jackson relocated tens of thousands of Native Americans onto reservations. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus. The god of the Democratic Party FDR rounded up Japanese Americans and placed them in internment camps. Truman dropped two nuclear bombs on harmless civilians. Clinton bombed an aspirin factory.

And yes, George W. Bush dunked a few terrorists in water.

Get over yourself.

Finally I'll deal with you. Calling TLC a moron isn't a personal attack, it's a statement of fact. If you're really worried about personal attacks though, go back a few pages where he basically threatened to kill me. So long as we're policing the internets and all.

As for what other presidents did, who cares? Other people's bad behavior does not excuse your own.

 

[Lemon law]

While trying my level best to avoid degenerating into counter insults to avenge the insults thrown at me, we do have to admit that Doc Savage Fan has a minor point by noting, "Obama is the one who started this and opened Pandora's Box. Or has that little fact slipped your mind?"

So I think we have to note that argument is only a matter of timing. Sooner or later these torture documents would see the light of day, and were too long buried by the best efforts of GWB&co, who no longer have the keys to the vault. In some charity, Obama did make that preemptive strikes to say the release should limit the blame to only those who authorized the torture with what should be regarded as phony baloney legal arguments. With all due respects to TLC who argues the legal arguments used to justify torture may not be, in fact, be phony baloney. What Obama did is an event, the cats out of the bag NOW, and there is no way to ask, what would have happened if Obama had waited longer?

As it is, congressional committees are now, like a hound pack, chasing the facts they would have found later anyway, we as a nation are going to have to face this problem sooner rather than later, and IMHO, that is a good thing.