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Charter schools do the impossible . . .

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Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
the reason parents enter their kids there is because they are not run with the current philosophy "the kids should have a good time in school, we can't flunk someone, or punish them for not wanting to learn"
pure ignorance.

The reason many charter schools do worse than the average school is 3 fold:
1.) They try to attract students from the poorest and most poorly-parented districts
2.) Parents often force their kids into schools that target one direction while the kids are entirely not interested in that charter.
3.) The pay for teachers and over all money available is generally much less for charter school.

BUT:

when you combine lower pay, lower quality students, and students that are focusing on a vocation they aren?t interested in and still have higher scores than the schools around them. then you know their is something being done right. Even if the average scores across the board are lower than when averaged in with suburban and rich schools.
Quite apart from your totally misreading what you quoted (as pointed out earler), you've got your facts wrong here, LMK. Even when race, income and locatin are all held constant, charter schools do worse. From the NYT article:
Because charter schools are concentrated in cities, often in poor neighborhoods, the researchers also compared urban charters to traditional schools in cities. They looked at low-income children in both settings, and broke down the results by race and ethnicity as well. In virtually all instances, the charter students did worse than their counterparts in regular public schools.
And one thing gets way overlooked about charter schools. They make their money on the backs of their teachers. I know, a friend of mine just completed her third year teaching for one.

They hire young, idealistic, enthusiastic teachers, pay them far less than their compatriots, and overburden them with expectations of after hours "volunteer" work. These teachers eventually get burnt out, and move on to better paying opportunities. It is NOT a sustainable paradigm.

On a personal note, it seems you benefited mightily from your charter school experience, and I am happy for you for that.
 
You've made these neat little categories and clearly feel that you are correct on everything and could not possibly be wrong
oh, not at all, I don?t keep brash views a secret, if I?m wrong I?ll throw them into the market, someone like yourself will knock me down, and I?ll adjust my views.

I?m not on these forums to get others to believe what I do, I?m here to qualify, quantify, and justify my own views.

You've made these neat little categories and clearly feel that you are correct on everything and could not possibly be wrong
I agree, I?m over generalizing, but that is what goes on all the time in the left-vs-right arguments, isn?t it? I?ve found someone willing to standup and say ?I?m the exception? much more rare than you seem to believe it is, and anyone not willing to take a generalization say ?that?s not me? and standup for their honest views pretty much deserves to be painted with a wide brush.
LMK. Even when race, income and locatin are all held constant, charter schools do worse. From the NYT article:
yep, I?m not registered from the nytimes, but I?d like to see a state breakdown, as i know from my own research that in the state of Texas *which i admitted to being only knowledgeable of earlier* the scores are lower than average, but usually twice that of the surrounding locations.

using such flaming rhetoric will only put off the potential moderate supporters.
I suppose it comes down to: why am I posting? I want someone to bat down my ideas.
I do it all the time IRL, and every once in a while someone will engage me with their own views and we?ll actually come to a compromised thoughtful conclusion.

Otherwise it?s just me pushing some rhetorical banter, something I?m sure I can do, but something that wouldn?t help me grow as a person. I can write posts that most everyone will agree with, but what do I gain from pushing people into rhetorical corners if I don?t leave something open worth coming back at me from. My quotes from that old Limbaugh book seemed far-stretched enough to pull up some fine targeted counter arguments, something that might even lead to an argument over the relative merits of ?it takes a village? vs. ?it takes two good parents?.

You could be so much more effective if you'd act a little humble and respond in a matter that promotes a positive exchange of ideas.
I?ve done that, I?ve even supported myself, but always we get the nuts who want to go so far to one direction they run out of support and fall into fallacious thinking. Hopefully by pointing out the problems with my own argument such people can come to their own conclusions as to why they, themselves, are holding equally fallacious reasoning as a base view.

I can?t convince anyone that they are making emotional arguments based on a slippery slope fallacy, but I can let someone figure out that I?m doing what they are and thus realize that we?ve both fallen away from logical lines.

Homeschooling Co-ops pwn private, public, and charter schools. Nuff said
definitely best way to teach, but many people feel the need for greater material wealth and personal satisfaction is more important than razing better children, so they leave it to the public schools to deal with as both parents peruse a career. They may also be ignorant to the benefits, possibilities, or simply not understand that, if even moderately intelligent, they can do a better job teaching their children than the schools can.

No matter how it breaks down, it?s sad to see that children are being raised by the school and day-care systems instead of by a loving fulltime parent.

They hire young, idealistic, enthusiastic teachers, pay them far less than their compatriots, and overburden them with expectations of after hours "volunteer" work. These teachers eventually get burnt out, and move on to better paying opportunities. It is NOT a sustainable paradigm.
I think it would be, if only we paid them on par with performance, let the teachers earn what they deserve instead of under funding our charter schools at the behest of the teachers unions desires to keep things status quo.
 
Originally posted by: tss4


How can you know my views without ever even asking me? You've made these neat little categories and clearly feel that you are correct on everything and could not possibly be wrong AND that anyone that does not agree with you on what topic must not agree with you on anything. Its really kind of sad.

What I find most amazing about you is that you are clearly above average intelligence yet you can't see something as abovoius as using such flaming rhetoric will only put off the potential moderate supporters. You take the time to write in a forum where you could influence people, yet you deliberately sabotage yourself over and over again. You could be so much more effective if you'd act a little humble and repsond in a matter that promotes a positive exchange of ideas.


This is the same guy who likes to judge and condem consenting adults who like to have sex with other consenting adults of the same sex and who somehow thinks that they are unqualified for any piblic office job.

He likes to judge other people on things like that and I wouldn't be surprised if he also judges people on the color of their skin as well. It wouldn't be a large leap for him to do so IMHO. Read the link below to get a better idea of who you are dealing with. It seems to me that religion as a whole usually breeds the self righteous types of people in this world.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=52&threadid=1373965&STARTPAGE=2&enterthread=y
 
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
They hire young, idealistic, enthusiastic teachers, pay them far less than their compatriots, and overburden them with expectations of after hours "volunteer" work. These teachers eventually get burnt out, and move on to better paying opportunities. It is NOT a sustainable paradigm.
I think it would be, if only we paid them on par with performance, let the teachers earn what they deserve instead of under funding our charter schools at the behest of the teachers unions desires to keep things status quo.
Wrong on the basic facts again, here, LMK. Teachers at charter schools are underpaid and overworked preciesly because there is no union for them.
 
Originally posted by: Perknose
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
They hire young, idealistic, enthusiastic teachers, pay them far less than their compatriots, and overburden them with expectations of after hours "volunteer" work. These teachers eventually get burnt out, and move on to better paying opportunities. It is NOT a sustainable paradigm.
I think it would be, if only we paid them on par with performance, let the teachers earn what they deserve instead of under funding our charter schools at the behest of the teachers unions desires to keep things status quo.
Wrong on the basic facts again, here, LMK. Teachers at charter schools are underpaid and overworked preciesly because there is no union for them.
I disagree, I believe they are under paid because the teachers unions demand that the funds not be allocated based on performance. *state of Texas again* we?re a right-to-work state, but I?ve seen time and again the teachers unions fighting moves to pay teachers based on performance and even fight measures that would pay our charter school teachers on-par with other teachers.

You can say ?they wouldn?t have that problem if they where members of the union? but that?s like saying ?your business wouldn?t get robed by us if you?d just pay us protection money?

He likes to judge other people on things like that and I wouldn't be surprised if he also judges people on the color of their skin as well.
it?s true, I often find myself discriminating against purple people.
Actually, as a white male, I?m a minority and have often been subject to discrimination. I?ve, numerous times, been told by teachers ?you don?t belong here? ?go back to ware you belong whitey?

Which is fair enough, people will be racist and their isn?t much you can do about it.

It seems to me that religion as a whole usually breeds the self righteous types of people in this world.
interestingly enough I don?t disagree, but as I said I?m more than happy to be proven wrong on a logical utilitarian level and thus adjust my views.

Interestingly enough, I said in that thread that I would vote for a homosexual, though I honestly wouldn?t vote for anyone that?s sexually promiscuous in any way. as you can see from this:
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
Originally posted by: Drift3r
The sexual orientation of a person does not tell anyone whether they are ... or are not qualified for a job
i'm glad we agree on something then
so yes, i agree, sexual orientation won't tell you if the person is qualified for office, nor does voting for a democrat mean you are against school choice. But unless you say otherwise associating yourself with the central liberal point of view is going to lead, rightfully, to the idea that you don't disagree much with the democrats.
 
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
Originally posted by: Perknose
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
They hire young, idealistic, enthusiastic teachers, pay them far less than their compatriots, and overburden them with expectations of after hours "volunteer" work. These teachers eventually get burnt out, and move on to better paying opportunities. It is NOT a sustainable paradigm.
I think it would be, if only we paid them on par with performance, let the teachers earn what they deserve instead of under funding our charter schools at the behest of the teachers unions desires to keep things status quo.
Wrong on the basic facts again, here, LMK. Teachers at charter schools are underpaid and overworked preciesly because there is no union for them.
I disagree, I believe they are under paid because the teachers unions demand that the funds not be allocated based on performance. *state of Texas again* we?re a right-to-work state, but the I?ve seen time and again the teachers unions fighting moves to pay teachers based on performance and even fight measures that would pay our charter school teachers on-par with other teachers.

You can say ?they wouldn?t have that problem if they where members of the union? but that?s like saying ?your business wouldn?t get robed by us if you?d just pay us protection money?



Please back that up with hard facts here. You like to make claims about a lot of things. Back up your statements please.
 
Originally posted by: Isla
Just for the sake of contrast...

I teach at a public school in a very high income area where our PTA pretty much gives us everything we need and spoils us rotten. It's nice to get $100 gift certificates for Christmas. It's nice to have gourmet lunches catered to us on special days. It's nice to teach the children of famous athletes and CEOs.

Anyway, we've been an "A" school for 5 years in a row and have won all kinds of awards. We are meeting all the criteria the state has for improvement, even though we some of the most poorly paid teachers in the nation (we start at 30K). I guarantee you that what makes the difference at our school is the parental involvement and additional financial support. It's easy to love teaching when you are shown respect and appreciation for your efforts.

I ought to know... I was a parent volunteer there before I decided to teach there. 😛
Your post is oh so true but sadly . . . there's nothing helpful in the alleged "reforms" pushed by the same people that embrace charters.

IMO, charters have great potential (just like the public schools) but instead of the inadequate funding and micromanagement (by local, state, feds) in the public schools we now have inadequately funding and NO management in the charters.

One of the elite teachers at my wife's inner city, low income, high minority pop school (which is also a top performer) left the school b/c she could make $8k/yr more by teaching at an elementary school less than 30mi away. After one year of dealing with the kids (and parents) in a high income school she came back. In her words she was not only more "appreciated" by parents in the low income district, she felt like she contributed more as a teacher serving kids that had very little compared to trying to teach children that "act" and are "entitled".

Regardless, most teachers are underappreciated and poorly compensated. Keep up the good work, Isla.
 
Regardless, most teachers are underappreciated and poorly compensated.
teachers aren?t paid well enough to take the more qualified people out of the private sector to teach the next generation, I think we can all agree on that.

I like to blame administrative incomes as well as waste in the system.
Edit:
Drift:
erroneously call me a racist, then you lie by calling me anti-gay in a link that shows that i, indeed, wouldn't judge someone's fitness for a job based simply on sexual orientation, honestly your not even trying to make a point, simply lying with a link and hoping no on reads it.
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
Originally posted by: Perknose
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
They hire young, idealistic, enthusiastic teachers, pay them far less than their compatriots, and overburden them with expectations of after hours "volunteer" work. These teachers eventually get burnt out, and move on to better paying opportunities. It is NOT a sustainable paradigm.
I think it would be, if only we paid them on par with performance, let the teachers earn what they deserve instead of under funding our charter schools at the behest of the teachers unions desires to keep things status quo.
Wrong on the basic facts again, here, LMK. Teachers at charter schools are underpaid and overworked preciesly because there is no union for them.
I disagree, I believe they are under paid because the teachers unions demand that the funds not be allocated based on performance. *state of Texas again* we?re a right-to-work state, but the I?ve seen time and again the teachers unions fighting moves to pay teachers based on performance and even fight measures that would pay our charter school teachers on-par with other teachers.

You can say ?they wouldn?t have that problem if they where members of the union? but that?s like saying ?your business wouldn?t get robed by us if you?d just pay us protection money?



Please back that up with hard facts here. You like to make claims about a lot of things. Back up your statements please.
and now here are some links:

in texas
in Detroit

i can go on, but google is your friend.
 
hey my post up there was to inform, i'm not for or against charter schools, from the one post i put up there, i was just informing what i have SEEN not read about by some spin journalist. its one thing to read about somthing, its another to witness it. i have nothing against public schools, i went to one 3 of the 4 years of my high school career, and ended up going to a private school my senior year.

but for the money a private school is much better- say pine crest in ft. lauderdale, just an amazing school (i went there for a year)

i'm feel that privatizing school is the wrong thing to do, charter school is simply an alternative if you don't like where public school is headed.

i grew up in grand haven michigan, a hugely republican area of michigan, but i'm a democrat because i have seen where public eduation has started to head, its truely sad what kids don't learn in school today. the worst part is the parents are more intersted in seeing their kids do well in sports than school. i'm not a nerd, i'm a 3 time swimming state champion, so its not like i'm venting on jocks, but kids nowadays in general don't know how to balance academics with sports. i'm currently working on my phd in biochem, and we have had discussions in our lab on this topic, and it a general agreement among professors that i know that the public schools have really dumbed down the expectations of students- they see it in what some of thier kids have gone through, would you beleive that only 11% of the graduates from my public school actually stay in college and get a degree- and this is in an area where 90% of family make more than 60K per year!!!! the most appauling thing was in high school when i had teachers ask why i work so hard and want to be at the top of my class- thats right not encouragment, but puzzlement

the only way to solve the educaiton problems in the us it to fully fund schools- somthing no child left behind does not do, but thats not the whole solution, somehow you have to get students to want to learn, show them was it does for them, christ, scare them, by showing them how they could end up in life without an education, too many students give up and take the easy way out- quitting. i know money doesn't solve problems but it could be a start.
 
Old excuse for poorly funding schools: We really want to do it but there just isn't money in the budget to give more to the schools . . .

New excuse for poorly funding schools: We really want to do it but the charters need money too and there just isn't money in the budget to give more to the public schools . . . but there is money to build more charters . . .
 
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
"It?s obvious that the school, orphanage and foster care systems are doing such a good job of razing children, let?s get it started earlier for everyone!"

...I was seeing if quotes from ?see I told you so? the 1993 book by Rush Limbaugh would fly.

Apparently Rush benefitted from a charter education as well.
 
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
They also have a long history of high dropout rates, lower test scores, and under funding.

Give me a charter school with kids that, despite their situation, want to learn, and I?ll give you 100 students succeeding in life ware before you only had 10.
I see, destroy the family unit, make the state the parent and controller of the minds of our children. It?s obvious that the school, orphanage and foster care systems are doing such a good job of razing children, let?s get it started earlier for everyone!

Trying to have the state take over the individual is a common tactic among you who seek totalitarianism, no matter the label you put on it. Attacking your federal strangle-hold over the minds of the children with competition that will help them achieve in life, I understand, is truly worrisome.

What are you quoting, LMK?
Lol! You caught me :-D

I was seeing if quotes from ?see I told you so? the 1993 book by Rush Limbaugh would fly.

though the fact that charter schools tend to be in lower-income lower-parental involvement locations is a valid reason that they would have lower than average scores. Even so, they are usually much better than the other community schools.

I honestly don?t expect anyone to think about it, you?ll be against school choice because you have to pander to the teachers unions, and we?ll be for school choice because we believe competition helps the government become more efficient.

But keep in mind, this is one of the many issues that may well lose you the black vote.


no, you can't use the poverty/inner city excuse. they factored for that and still, the public schools came ahead.

npr streaming audio on it. http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3855679
 
A lot of you are missing information about this study.

They corrected for race and poverty in the study. They compared charters to many subsets of the public school population and charters scored worse in all of them.

I'm very surprised frankly.

The only excuse I can think of is that charter school are schools of last resort for some parents with troubled kids so they have a disproportionate number of these troubled kids.
 
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
They also have a long history of high dropout rates, lower test scores, and under funding.

Give me a charter school with kids that, despite their situation, want to learn, and I?ll give you 100 students succeeding in life ware before you only had 10.
I see, destroy the family unit, make the state the parent and controller of the minds of our children. It?s obvious that the school, orphanage and foster care systems are doing such a good job of razing children, let?s get it started earlier for everyone!

Trying to have the state take over the individual is a common tactic among you who seek totalitarianism, no matter the label you put on it. Attacking your federal strangle-hold over the minds of the children with competition that will help them achieve in life, I understand, is truly worrisome.

What are you quoting, LMK?
Lol! You caught me :-D

I was seeing if quotes from ?see I told you so? the 1993 book by Rush Limbaugh would fly.

though the fact that charter schools tend to be in lower-income lower-parental involvement locations is a valid reason that they would have lower than average scores. Even so, they are usually much better than the other community schools.

I honestly don?t expect anyone to think about it, you?ll be against school choice because you have to pander to the teachers unions, and we?ll be for school choice because we believe competition helps the government become more efficient.

But keep in mind, this is one of the many issues that may well lose you the black vote.


no, you can't use the poverty/inner city excuse. they factored for that and still, the public schools came ahead.

npr streaming audio on it. http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3855679
like i said when perknose said the same, i can only speak about how things are going on in Texas. If other states fail to implement charter schools properly then we should be looking at who does it right and who doesn't, instead of blaming all charter schools.

The only excuse I can think of is that charter school are schools of last resort for some parents with troubled kids so they have a disproportionate number of these troubled kids.
yes, alternative schools for troubled children are also 'charter schools' along with the magnet schools and the schools for the mentally handicapped.

this is, if nothing else, a horribly intellectually dishonest report that tries to suggest that charter schools don't work despite overwhelming evidence on the state level to the contrary.
 
my personal experience with the first charter school in my state...is extremely positive...

my daughter attended the school, and is now headed to Yale...(the most selective admissions rate of any college/university in 2004)

the charter school had 50% of all the national merit scholars in town (17% of graduating class!)

the class had an average SAT score that was 200 points greater than the state average.

97% were college bound


i think the charter school is the best thing that happened to education in my area....
the kids love it
the teachers love their jobs
they are trying to get certified as an International Bacalaureate program.

you know, charter schools have voluntary students...they chose to go there..
why would any rational person be against having options.
if the school "works", it's going to flourish, and the kids will have an option to attend.
if the school doesn't "work", it's probably going to fold.

monolithic school systems regress to the mean....

me, i'm for choice..

in our town, the charter school is the equivalent of a prep school, and i'm grateful beyond words for how it has helped my daughter reach her full potential.

boola boola....
 
Blah, blah, blah . . . my daughter is going to Yale . . . blah, blah, blah😉

I don't think anyone is arguing charters are evil. But the haphazard establishment of charters and poor oversight is ridiculous.
 
HS:

I've never heard more baloney from one man in my life. What a crock. Do you really expect anyone here to believe that little tale?

Pffft...

-Robert
 
Originally posted by: chess9
dannybinn:

We are all certain the teachers are wonderful. That is a non-issue. And no one is surprised, or should be, at the low scores. We have no miracle cure for children who come to school unprepared, improperly fed, beaten, worn out and worn down, on drugs, possibly raped, depressed or worse, etc. But, the public schools have a long history of helping many such kids. Thus, the rationale for Charter Schools is bogus and yet another bit of Republican stupidity.

If we truly want to help kids we will do it from the time they are born until age 8 at least. Those are the critical years and those are they years kids are most likely to be given no chance to compete in the 21st Century. I would go so far as to say that if we poured most of our educational and health resources into kids age .1-8, that we would see a phenomenal increase in literacy and graduation rates. The current system is barbaric at best....

-Robert
no politician will ever blame the parents. its not just republicans that won't do it.
 
But the haphazard establishment of charters and poor oversight is ridiculous.

i tried to make the point that the parents and the students have a choice with charters...if the school is doing a poor job..the parents have the ability to pull their kid out immediately and send them back to the local public school (assuming that is better).

My impression is that if your stuck in a crappy public school system, you've got no real options other than private schooling. At least in my city, it's impossible to move from one public school to another, unless you change where you live...unless of course you have a charter school with open enrollment available.

the key is student and parental choice....

i'm "pro-choice"

as for

I've never heard more baloney from one man in my life. What a crock. Do you really expect anyone here to believe that little tale?
Geez! We're sounding a little bitter aren't we?
 
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
But the haphazard establishment of charters and poor oversight is ridiculous.

i tried to make the point that the parents and the students have a choice with charters...if the school is doing a poor job..the parents have the ability to pull their kid out immediately and send them back to the local public school (assuming that is better).

My impression is that if your stuck in a crappy public school system, you've got no real options other than private schooling. At least in my city, it's impossible to move from one public school to another, unless you change where you live...unless of course you have a charter school with open enrollment available.

the key is student and parental choice....

i'm "pro-choice"

as for

I've never heard more baloney from one man in my life. What a crock. Do you really expect anyone here to believe that little tale?
Geez! We're sounding a little bitter aren't we?
I agree with your first comment but giving people the option of a poor public school and a poor charter (with no oversight) makes no sense. In addition, IF money/resources is an issue . . . often funds are subtracted from public school allotments based on the number of kids. In essence, money is indeed taken from the public schools and given to the charters. In Chapel Hill, several charters were approved. Two failed within 18mo . . . guess where the kids had to go . . . despite the fact there was really no funding for them?
 
In Chapel Hill, several charters were approved. Two failed within 18mo . . . guess where the kids had to go . . . despite the fact there was really no funding for them?
Lets ask the question, why did the kids go to these charter schools to begin with?
What was perceived to be lacking from their local public school, and what did they perceive the charter school to be offering that was better?

I think one idea behind charter schools, and vouchers..is to inject some of the "market forces" into education...

wonderous and amazing thing about market forces...prices to the consumer go down, quality goes up.
equally amazing thing about a monopoly...costs go up, quality goes down.

why are you so adamant in trying to preserve what is essentially a monopoly...you have to fund the local public schools no matter what (either through property taxes or income taxes typically), so if you opt out and send your kids to a private school, you have to pay even more. why not inject choice?

if the traditional public school is the best, it will have no shortage of students. if the local "alternative" school is better, why shouldn't it get more students and funds?

is your wife a teacher per chance? in a public school? being "anti-choice" empowers the teachers and administrators of the local public school system, at the expense of everyone else.
 
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