sounds like isolationism which helps no one. and let others take care of themselves? we've seen what that leads to. genocide, whether it be the jews in germany or the cr@p in bosnia. we don't push our starbucks on people, they buy the coffee all by themselves
if some get disgruntled, thats the price of progress, you can never make all people happy all the time. the backwards nations are the ones that are slow to adopt our values.what works, equal rights for the people inside a country. good education without religious nutz involved.
Why hell yes I have and the point is, what makes you think it will or can change????? Humans, for the most part, whether you choose to admitt it or not are proud and egotistical..................they also will fight to defend and protect themselves from what they see has a threat. It's not going to change just because some people want it to...................
As for those other countries and the US not having "clean hands".............of course they didn't and we don't! No country is "clean" of any of those things and never will be! The ones whom are strongest and can "play the game" the best last the longest............
Originally posted by: Zakath15
I'm not saying that we should negotiate with bin laden. I despise him and his whole train of thought. however... we are not without some fault in this whole debacle. Kill bin laden, if you can... just make sure we don't make dozens more like him in the process.Originally posted by: ToBeMe Who said we were "stuck"???? Fact of the matter is, we were complacent! So you're thinking we should address the demands of bin Laden and al Quada, even when the majority of the Muslim world does not agree with them???? What happens to the fact that the US does not deal with or negotiate with terroists? If our "High Horse" is that we don't want our buildings and skyscrapers hit by planes or other terroism..........then yeah, we do have to defned it just as we are! How can you be so sure that bin Laden and al Quada simply want Americans dead simply because they are different than they are.............
Yup .. how many little terrorist suicide bombers did all those dead civilians create? Teh children, the brothers of those dead civilians will grow up with a festering "I hate america" sore in their hearts that will one day rain more planes, or bombs or what have you, on the country that they blame for those dead civilians. (this in reference to what i heard on the radio the other day about how a lot of civilians have died since they started America Strike Back)..
OH....................so you're "Isolationist..............hmmmmm, that'll work real good...............
As for us being the "worlds police"......................I don't think we should be either..................the cost is never shared and we are the one making the "enemies" you talk about, but, as long as all the other countries and the UN always request our help and presence...............wouldn't we then make enemies also if we refused to help????How come I always hear the "humans are evil by nature", or in your case "egotistical etc" from people who are and are comfortable with it? I'm not comfortable with that .. I have heard people argue (convincingly) that it is human nature to want to fvck young girls, to kill, and all sorts of things .. we evolved from animals, can't we evolve out of this? Look at the futures that we paint for ourselves in teh movies ... there is an ongoing thread about that right now in OT .. and it's scary to look at the pictures we've painted of our future. We are our future and it is up to us .. so we better take care of bad habits now.
So if blood soaked hands has lead to the demise of all the other empires .. fallowing that same strategy seems to be foolish no?
Originally posted by: ToBeMe
OH....................so you're "Isolationist..............hmmmmm, that'll work real good...............
You tell me. What do you think is the correct route of action for the United States to take?
I'll refer to south park for my explanation:
"The reason half the world hates America, is that you don't realise half the world hates you!"
note: STRICTLY TONGUE IN CHEEK, NO OFFENCE MEANT BEFORE ANYONE FLAMES ME
"The reason half the world hates America, is that you don't realise half the world hates you!"
note: STRICTLY TONGUE IN CHEEK, NO OFFENCE MEANT BEFORE ANYONE FLAMES ME
Originally posted by: Timmeh
I'll refer to south park for my explanation:
"The reason half the world hates America, is that you don't realise half the world hates you!"
note: STRICTLY TONGUE IN CHEEK, NO OFFENCE MEANT BEFORE ANYONE FLAMES ME
Great, start a thread on international policy, now we have a mentally handicapped kid from South Park posting in it. What a world.
Originally posted by: smp
Originally posted by: Zakath15
I'm not saying that we should negotiate with bin laden. I despise him and his whole train of thought. however... we are not without some fault in this whole debacle. Kill bin laden, if you can... just make sure we don't make dozens more like him in the process.Originally posted by: ToBeMe Who said we were "stuck"???? Fact of the matter is, we were complacent! So you're thinking we should address the demands of bin Laden and al Quada, even when the majority of the Muslim world does not agree with them???? What happens to the fact that the US does not deal with or negotiate with terroists? If our "High Horse" is that we don't want our buildings and skyscrapers hit by planes or other terroism..........then yeah, we do have to defned it just as we are! How can you be so sure that bin Laden and al Quada simply want Americans dead simply because they are different than they are.............
Yup .. how many little terrorist suicide bombers did all those dead civilians create? Teh children, the brothers of those dead civilians will grow up with a festering "I hate america" sore in their hearts that will one day rain more planes, or bombs or what have you, on the country that they blame for those dead civilians. (this in reference to what i heard on the radio the other day about how a lot of civilians have died since they started America Strike Back)..
Yeah............I can see your point..........perhaps we should have pumped millions more in aid to them and did a little "ass kissing" instead huh.........
Don't get me wrong, I regret every life which was lost in Afghanistan which were civilian and not involved, but, I regret and hate much more the fact that thousands of our own citizens were lost on 9/11.....................whatever the underlying cause, the tryrants which were ruling Afghanistan post 9/11 had many chances to hand over bin Laden or at least cooperate and they chose not to...............they did not want to "deal" which I can respect, but, by doing so they also took responsibility for what happened after that so the blood of the Afghani government.............which was suppose to take care of its people, is as much at fault as anyone for the events after the attack of 9/11........... Originally posted by: ToBeMe
Yeah............I can see your point..........perhaps we should have pumped millions more in aid to them and did a little "ass kissing" instead huh.........
I think the fact that we overturned the Afghan regime was a good thing, which seems terribly hypocritical, I know. Unless you realize that we helped put that same regime into power.
I regret all the lives that have been lost, Afghan and American. I am asking, what do we need to do to prevent this from happening? How do we prevent more bin ladens from being created?
Part of the problem could be the way the US constantly 'forces' its policies on other nations. For example, you have Bush pushing for peace, or a resolution in the middle east.. While I support Bush, and most North American citizens do also (On this subject), Not all the world agrees. Some of the people on the other side of the world are thinking, "How the hell is this Americas business"
It would be kind of similar to say.. Germany comming in and saying "Bush is a piece of sh!t. Get rid of him now". Many Americans would think, "Who are you to say that?"
Its a tough situation for George Jr.. He has his people pushing him to push for a resolution, but the people hes pushing to bring about the resolution are hoping he'd stay out of their business..
-----------------
Also theres the issue of money, and how America, and other industrialized nations.. Britian, France, Germany, Canada.. so on.. are holding down other nations financially. Im not well enough educated in economics to comment really, but I do sometimes wonder why that baseball player gets $10 million per year.. for doing something fun and easy.. or how some punks do some acting, and claim $900,000 per week isnt enough money.. (man I wish I could run a few lines from a script.. I'd take $2,000/week and be happy)
It would be kind of similar to say.. Germany comming in and saying "Bush is a piece of sh!t. Get rid of him now". Many Americans would think, "Who are you to say that?"
Its a tough situation for George Jr.. He has his people pushing him to push for a resolution, but the people hes pushing to bring about the resolution are hoping he'd stay out of their business..
-----------------
Also theres the issue of money, and how America, and other industrialized nations.. Britian, France, Germany, Canada.. so on.. are holding down other nations financially. Im not well enough educated in economics to comment really, but I do sometimes wonder why that baseball player gets $10 million per year.. for doing something fun and easy.. or how some punks do some acting, and claim $900,000 per week isnt enough money.. (man I wish I could run a few lines from a script.. I'd take $2,000/week and be happy)
EXACTLY.
I've posed that scenario to people before, and I always laugh at how people react... how we'd retaliate and scoff at their arrogance. Then they realize that that's exactly what we do with our foreign policy.
LOL! Why don't you just sit down and come up with a plan to change it then????
If you are different.......great, bravo for you, but, the fact remains that the cycle raised above is not going to change in the near future.................I will guarantee that if we begin to appease all others, some other country will merely take our position and we will no longer be the worlds "superpower"................it's going to happen eventually anyway, but, the weaker you become, the sooner it will happen. You are not going to change people as easily as you seem to think! There is none! No matter what we do, we will please some, and make enemies of others...................Stopping terrorism will not happen. All that can be hoped is to make it known that if you choose to attack us, we will do all within our power to find you and hold you responsible. The alternative is to negotiate with terrorists and give in to their demands which will in turn make us look weak and beaten which will in turn mark the end of any influence we carry in the world...........Originally posted by: Zakath15
Originally posted by: ToBeMe
OH....................so you're "Isolationist..............hmmmmm, that'll work real good...............
You tell me. What do you think is the correct route of action for the United States to take?
In the case of 9/11.. I dont think negotiation was an option.. I havent heard anything about Osama calling up Bush and saying.. "Hey, were about to fvck you over unless you give us <Dr. Evil> 1 million dollars </Dr. Evil>"
Just trying to shed a little humor
Originally posted by: Zakath15
Originally posted by: ToBeMe
Yeah............I can see your point..........perhaps we should have pumped millions more in aid to them and did a little "ass kissing" instead huh.........
I think the fact that we overturned the Afghan regime was a good thing, which seems terribly hypocritical, I know. Unless you realize that we helped put that same regime into power.
I regret all the lives that have been lost, Afghan and American. I am asking, what do we need to do to prevent this from happening? How do we prevent more bin ladens from being created?
Um, yeah, we had a part in putting the Taliban in place, but, did you hear of all the atrocities committed by them during the first several years they were in place????? Of course not. Why is that???? Because when they were put there, they said they were commited to forming a government which would be fair and impartial and take care of the people of Afghanistan..................we did our part and sent the aid agreed to.................is it also our fault the failed to do as they said??????
As far as preventing further bin Ladens or preventing the same thing from happening again.......................you won't and can't..............as long as people have different beliefs and lifestyles there will always be radicals and those whom will do anything to instill their beliefs................
Which is why I ask if it really matters why these extremists hate us. What good will we get from that information? Will we change our country and constitution in order to satisfy other nations? Whenever someone disagrees with us are we going to do what we can to compromise our way of life so that they can be satisfied with it?
I don't think there's any way to prevent more bin ladens from being created. These people aren't just overseas, either. Anyone remember Oklahoma?
We can't make everyone in this world love us and the way we do things. It's just not going to happen. People all over the world, and even in our own country, are going to dislike things that we do. Some will disregard it and others will act out with violence. It's just something that always has and always will be a possibility.
Pliablemoose
Lifer
- Oct 11, 1999
- 25,195
- 0
- 56
They hate us because we allow our women to wear 2 piece swimsuits & go to law school.
People do desperate things when they feel they have nothing to lose.
I suspect that if we started handing out solar powered TV's and satellite dishes & put a Direct TV satellite in orbit over the middle east, gave them 20 years of dubbed free Pay Per View, they'd settle down.
But that might be an incorrect assumption on my part
People do desperate things when they feel they have nothing to lose.
I suspect that if we started handing out solar powered TV's and satellite dishes & put a Direct TV satellite in orbit over the middle east, gave them 20 years of dubbed free Pay Per View, they'd settle down.
But that might be an incorrect assumption on my part
This might answer your question Zakath15,
All OBL wanted is for the US to take our troops out of Saudi Arabia and to leave them be seeing Saudi Arabia is the center of Islam. I hate the hypocrites that say we dont need oil from the Middle East yet they are so quick to fill up their gas tanks knowing that the majority of the oil is imported from foreign Middle East countries. :|
I am sure you are referring to the Muslims in Bosnia, I can tell you are truely a racist, in every thread you always have to bash the Muslims :| What if I said the cr@p in germany wouldnt you be mad. Didnt your mother ever teach if you dont have something nice to contribute dont contribute at all.
All OBL wanted is for the US to take our troops out of Saudi Arabia and to leave them be seeing Saudi Arabia is the center of Islam. I hate the hypocrites that say we dont need oil from the Middle East yet they are so quick to fill up their gas tanks knowing that the majority of the oil is imported from foreign Middle East countries. :|
I am sure you are referring to the Muslims in Bosnia, I can tell you are truely a racist, in every thread you always have to bash the Muslims :| What if I said the cr@p in germany wouldnt you be mad. Didnt your mother ever teach if you dont have something nice to contribute dont contribute at all.
The reason is that little dirty hateful cowards feel the need to destroy in order to make a point because they have pathetic meaningless lives and feel that such a statement means something...[/quote]
Yeah yeah, I got it he did contradict himself and make his view sound rather narrow, all in one sentence no less!
Now, I think that J3anyus got it closer to home then it first seems in his semi-sarcastic reply:
Honestly, I'd say the main reason for everything wrong in the world (and most of the unity as well) is beliefs.... Beliefs hold nations together, beliefs give us a cause, and they also give us reasons to die for. I have no answers, all I can say is that everything is a double-edged sword.
As narrow minded and totally oblivious to anything but themselves as Americans can be, I think that America does a pretty good job policing the world (point out everything they do wrong, I challenge you to tell me how YOU'd make it all better). Right now, whenever I hear the argument that America doesn't stay out of anyone's business and always fends for itself (which is true) all I can think of, is that it could be so much worse. Think about it, as bullish and obtuse as America can be, they are trying their best to do good in the world. They are not a totalitarian government, they are not trying to conquer the world like many past "dynasties". They attempt to keep everyone in check while not completely forcing their will on other countries. Look where this Bosnian feud occured so recently: right where both world wars began. As unclean as America's dealing of the situation was, there is no world war going on, and I think their swift action is part of the reason why.
You bring up the point of that:
The rest of the United Nations seems to buy, at least somewhat, into the "jealous of America's freedom" answer. I'm not going to say that's the only explanation, but don't you think that the US is the victim in this case? I mean, there's nothing America likes to do more than have commercials with the Red, White, and Blue flowing everywhere, but they were the ones who got attacked.
I'll add more later, but this post is long enough and I've already had to bite my tongue more than once
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