Catholocism = Christianity?

Page 6 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

FeuerFrei

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2005
9,152
928
126
Originally posted by: dornick
Originally posted by: kinev
Catholics are not Christians.

I suppose it all depends on your definition of Christian. To me, a Christian is a person who believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. As to these teachings, there is no more important aspect of a religion than determining how you are able to be with God in Heaven when you die. Christianity and Catholicism differ on the most important aspect of religion.

Christianity teaches that Jesus died for our sins and man can receive the gift of salvation by accepting Jesus as his/her savior. Jesus himself stated that he alone was the only way to Heaven in John 14:6. So, according to Jesus himself, man receives salvation through faith in Him, not by works.

Catholicism teaches that Jesus gives a "measure" of grace, but there are other actions that have to be performed to get to Heaven. This is where the Catholic sacraments come along. Catholics do not put their faith in Jesus alone for salvation. They believe that if they perform enough sacraments to receive enough grace, they can get into Heaven. This is contrary to what the Bible and Jesus himself taught.

As others have stated, Catholicism has strayed from what the Bible teaches and has become a religion based on rituals. The Bible itself warned early Christians about becoming too ritualized and putting too much importance on ceremony.

The reasons for this distinction are pretty obvious to anybody who has studied religion. If two religions differ regarding the core aspects of those religions, they cannot be the same.

You are incorrect in your conception of Catholicism. What Catholicism teaches is that salvation is acheived through faith in Christ AND living as an imitator of Christ. Faith (as in simple belief that Jesus dies for you) is not totally sufficient. You have to live a Christian lifestyle as well.

Catholicism does not go against the Bible. You guys should do a little reading from the other side of the table, since it looks like you've been taught what's "wrong" with Catholics pretty well.

Kinev is right on with his assessment. Catholicism has strayed far enough away from Christianity that Catholics shouldn't be considered Christians, IMHO. Unless they are fortunate enough to see through the erroneous doctrines they are fed.

As far as Catholicism teaching that salvation hinges on lifestyle, that is false doctrine. What if you died minutes after placing your faith in Christ?? Are you damned by your inablility live a Christian life?? Nope. Remember the thief on the cross near Jesus'? When he affirmed his faith by stating that Jesus is the "Christ, the son of the living God", Jesus told him that he would be with him in paradise that day. You do not have to perform any physical tasks to become a Christian.

IMO... catholicism != christianity. Even though they 'believe' in the same God.
 

SportSC4

Golden Member
Aug 29, 2002
1,152
0
0
Originally posted by: Fritzo
Uhh, Catholics are the ORIGINAL form of Christiananity. They started the whole thing with the church headed by St. Peter. All other forms of Christianity are offshoots of Catholicism.

Am I wrong but didn't Catholicism break off of Eastern Orthodox?
 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
Originally posted by: SportSC4
Originally posted by: Fritzo
Uhh, Catholics are the ORIGINAL form of Christiananity. They started the whole thing with the church headed by St. Peter. All other forms of Christianity are offshoots of Catholicism.

Am I wrong but didn't Catholicism break off of Eastern Orthodox?


Well, it is really difficult to say who left whom, but basically some folks would say just that. Others woudl say the Eastern Orthodox left. Years ago, a large group of evangelical protestant Christians began a collabrative effort researching the Christian faith and the result was the mass covertion of thousands of evangelical protestants to Eastern Orthodoxy. If the 12 disciples didn't believe in apostolic succesion, then why did they lay hands on their sucessors?
 

dornick

Senior member
Jan 30, 2005
751
0
0
Originally posted by: FeuerFrei
Originally posted by: dornick
Originally posted by: kinev
Catholics are not Christians.

I suppose it all depends on your definition of Christian. To me, a Christian is a person who believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. As to these teachings, there is no more important aspect of a religion than determining how you are able to be with God in Heaven when you die. Christianity and Catholicism differ on the most important aspect of religion.

Christianity teaches that Jesus died for our sins and man can receive the gift of salvation by accepting Jesus as his/her savior. Jesus himself stated that he alone was the only way to Heaven in John 14:6. So, according to Jesus himself, man receives salvation through faith in Him, not by works.

Catholicism teaches that Jesus gives a "measure" of grace, but there are other actions that have to be performed to get to Heaven. This is where the Catholic sacraments come along. Catholics do not put their faith in Jesus alone for salvation. They believe that if they perform enough sacraments to receive enough grace, they can get into Heaven. This is contrary to what the Bible and Jesus himself taught.

As others have stated, Catholicism has strayed from what the Bible teaches and has become a religion based on rituals. The Bible itself warned early Christians about becoming too ritualized and putting too much importance on ceremony.

The reasons for this distinction are pretty obvious to anybody who has studied religion. If two religions differ regarding the core aspects of those religions, they cannot be the same.

You are incorrect in your conception of Catholicism. What Catholicism teaches is that salvation is acheived through faith in Christ AND living as an imitator of Christ. Faith (as in simple belief that Jesus dies for you) is not totally sufficient. You have to live a Christian lifestyle as well.

Catholicism does not go against the Bible. You guys should do a little reading from the other side of the table, since it looks like you've been taught what's "wrong" with Catholics pretty well.

Kinev is right on with his assessment. Catholicism has strayed far enough away from Christianity that Catholics shouldn't be considered Christians, IMHO. Unless they are fortunate enough to see through the erroneous doctrines they are fed.

As far as Catholicism teaching that salvation hinges on lifestyle, that is false doctrine. What if you died minutes after placing your faith in Christ?? Are you damned by your inablility live a Christian life?? Nope. Remember the thief on the cross near Jesus'? When he affirmed his faith by stating that Jesus is the "Christ, the son of the living God", Jesus told him that he would be with him in paradise that day. You do not have to perform any physical tasks to become a Christian.

IMO... catholicism != christianity. Even though they 'believe' in the same God.

Okay, I think I mistated the Catholic position somewhat. Basically, as James says "faith without works is dead". In other words, faith is indeed what saves you, but it's no good if you aren't willing to act like a Christian.
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
0
Originally posted by: SportSC4
Originally posted by: Fritzo
Uhh, Catholics are the ORIGINAL form of Christiananity. They started the whole thing with the church headed by St. Peter. All other forms of Christianity are offshoots of Catholicism.

Am I wrong but didn't Catholicism break off of Eastern Orthodox?

Catholics are like Nazi's. They like to write themselves into the history books and change history the way they see fit.



...KIDDING! :p

Although Catholicism was *not* the original form of Christianity, no.
 

Amdiggidy

Senior member
Jan 26, 2005
911
0
76
Originally posted by: Fritzo
Originally posted by: DAGTA
Originally posted by: Fritzo
Originally posted by: DAGTA
Originally posted by: Fritzo
Uhh, Catholics are the ORIGINAL form of Christiananity. They started the whole thing with the church headed by St. Peter. All other forms of Christianity are offshoots of Catholicism.

No. Catholicism is one of the oldest churches based off of Christianity but it was not the original. Read the book of Acts if you want to know more.

Again, you get a :confused:

The Catholic religion is based upon the celebration of the last supper, where Jesus says "Do this in memory of me." You can't get much earlier than that. I've studied this subject with our pastor (who also has a PhD in Theology) and he has confirmed this fact.

Here's a good link to back up this:

Wikipedia

Great, you've relied on the word of another human (your pastor) and an internet site that anyone can alter (wikipedia). Why don't you read the book of Acts and see if you still disagree with me?

The Acts of the Apostles chronicled the formation of the church. It basically went over the prototype of what we call Catholicism. Also, if I'm not supposed to get information from another human (one who studied the subject so much he can be called Dr.), then who am I supposed to get information from? Would I have given more weight to my argument if I said that an elephant told me?

They say an elephant never forgets.....:p
I think they're pretty reliable. (just lightening the mood a bit:))
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,111
5,643
126
Catholics are Christion, end of discussion.

Certain Christians will make extennsive arguements against the above Fact, but what their arguements boil down too are the same things that have separated even Protestant groups, Interpretation and Dogmatic adherence to peripheral issues. It wasn't long ago that one Protestant group killed members of another Protestant group, simply because one believed that Baptism was supposed to be Immersion, while the other group believed in Sprinkling. Numerous other issues have been the constant contention amongst various groups and has lead many Christians to think many other Christians are not Christian at all.

So for those Christians denying the christian nature of the Roman Catholic Church, I have a question: Do you still worship Ashur in December?
 

StevenYoo

Diamond Member
Jul 4, 2001
8,636
0
0
i'm a catholic, and i question lots of catholic things.

i'm not NEARLY educated enough or well-read to be in any position to argue any points here.

but in my opinion, all the churches are human constructs based upon some key principals given to us by the Divine.

since we're all not perfect, then every church isn't perfect, so like DAGTA said before, just follow your heart.

Einstein (yeah, not the most religious person there was) said "I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."
 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
Matt. 23:9 - Jesus says, "call no man father." But Protestants use this verse in an attempt to prove that it is wrong for Catholics to call priests "father." This is an example of "eisegesis" (imposing one's views upon a passage) as opposed to "exegesis" (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of ?fathers? and ?rabbis? because they were hypocrites. Jesus warns us not to elevate anyone to the level of our heavenly Father.

Matt. 23:8 ? in this teaching, Jesus also says not to call anyone teacher or rabbi as well. But don?t Protestants call their teachers ?teacher?? What about this commandment of Jesus? When Protestants say ?call no man father,? they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher either.

Judges 17:10; 18:19 - priesthood and fatherhood have always been identified together. Fatherhood literally means "communicating one's nature," and just as biological fathers communicate their nature to their children, so do spiritual fathers communicate the nature of God to us, their children, through (hopefully) teaching and example.

Eph. 3:14-15 - every family in heaven and on earth is named from the "Father." We are fathers in the Father.

Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13 - elders of the Church are called "fathers." Therefore, we should ask the question, "Why don't Protestants call their pastors "father?"

1 Cor. 4:15 - Paul writes, "I became your father in Christ Jesus."

1 Cor. 4:17 - Paul calls Bishop Timothy a beloved and faithful "child" in the Lord.

2 Cor. 12:14 - Paul describes his role as parent over his "children" the Corinthians.

Phil. 2:22 - Paul calls Timothy's service to him as a son serves a "father."

1 Thess. 2:11- Paul compares the Church elders' ministry to the people like a father with his children.

1 Tim. 1:2,18; 2 Tim. 1:2-3 - Paul calls Timothy his true "child" in the faith and his son.

Titus 1:4 - Paul calls Titus his true "child" in a common faith. Priests are our spiritual fathers in the family of God.

Philemon 10 - Paul says he has become the "father" of Onesimus.

Heb. 12:7,9 - emphasizes our earthly "fathers." But these are not just biological but also spiritual (the priests of the Church).

1 Peter 5:13 - Peter refers to himself as father by calling Mark his "son."

1 John 2:1,13,14 - John calls the elders of the Church "fathers."

1 John 2:1,18,28; 3:18; 5:21; 3 John 4 - John calls members of the Church "children."

1 Macc. 2:65 - Mattathias the priest tells his sons that Simeon will be their "father."
 

Shawn

Lifer
Apr 20, 2003
32,237
53
91
They are far removed from other Christians, but they are still Christians. Hell they invented Christianity for Christ sake! ;)
 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
Call No Man "Father"?


Many Protestants claim that when Catholics address priests as "father," they are engaging in an unbiblical practice that Jesus forbade: "Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven" (Matt. 23:9).

The Answer


To understand why the charge does not work, one must first understand the use of the word "father" in reference to our earthly fathers. No one would deny a little girl the opportunity to tell someone that she loves her father. Common sense tells us that Jesus wasn?t forbidding this type of use of the word "father."

In fact, to forbid it would rob the address "Father" of its meaning when applied to God, for there would no longer be any earthly counterpart for the analogy of divine Fatherhood. The concept of God?s role as Father would be meaningless if we obliterated the concept of earthly fatherhood.

But in the Bible the concept of fatherhood is not restricted to just our earthly fathers and God. It is used to refer to people other than biological or legal fathers, and is used as a sign of respect to those with whom we have a special relationship.

For example, Joseph tells his brothers of a special fatherly relationship God had given him with the king of Egypt: "So it was not you who sent me here, but God; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt" (Gen. 45:8).

Job indicates he played a fatherly role with the less fortunate: "I was a father to the poor, and I searched out the cause of him whom I did not know" (Job 29:16). And God himself declares that he will give a fatherly role to Eliakim, the steward of the house of David: "In that day I will call my servant Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah . . . and I will clothe him with [a] robe, and will bind [a] girdle on him, and will commit . . . authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah" (Is. 22:20?21).

This type of fatherhood not only applies to those who are wise counselors (like Joseph) or benefactors (like Job) or both (like Eliakim), it also applies to those who have a fatherly spiritual relationship with one. For example, Elisha cries, "My father, my father!" to Elijah as the latter is carried up to heaven in a whirlwind (2 Kgs. 2:12). Later, Elisha himself is called a father by the king of Israel (2 Kgs. 6:21).



A Change with the New Testament?


Some Fundamentalists argue that this usage changed with the New Testament?that while it may have been permissible to call certain men "father" in the Old Testament, since the time of Christ, it?s no longer allowed. This argument fails for several reasons.

First, as we?ve seen, the imperative "call no man father" does not apply to one?s biological father. It also doesn?t exclude calling one?s ancestors "father," as is shown in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of "our father Isaac."

Second, there are numerous examples in the New Testament of the term "father" being used as a form of address and reference, even for men who are not biologically related to the speaker. There are, in fact, so many uses of "father" in the New Testament, that the Fundamentalist interpretation of Matthew 23 (and the objection to Catholics calling priests "father") must be wrong, as we shall see.

Third, a careful examination of the context of Matthew 23 shows that Jesus didn?t intend for his words here to be understood literally. The whole passage reads, "But you are not to be called ?rabbi,? for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ?masters,? for you have one master, the Christ" (Matt. 23:8?10).

The first problem is that although Jesus seems to prohibit the use of the term "teacher," in Matthew 28:19?20, Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7); "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher" (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: "God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers" (1 Cor. 12:28); and "his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ?s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as "teachers."

Fundamentalists themselves slip up on this point by calling all sorts of people "doctor," for example, medical doctors, as well as professors and scientists who have Ph.D. degrees (i.e., doctorates). What they fail to realize is that "doctor" is simply the Latin word for "teacher." Even "Mister" and "Mistress" ("Mrs.") are forms of the word "master," also mentioned by Jesus. So if his words in Matthew 23 were meant to be taken literally, Fundamentalists would be just as guilty for using the word "teacher" and "doctor" and "mister" as Catholics for saying "father." But clearly, that would be a misunderstanding of Christ?s words.



So What Did Jesus Mean?


Jesus criticized Jewish leaders who love "the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ?rabbi? by men" (Matt. 23:6?7). His admonition here is a response to the Pharisees? proud hearts and their grasping after marks of status and prestige.

He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.

Christ used hyperbole often, for example when he declared, "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell" (Matt. 5:29, cf. 18:9; Mark 9:47). Christ certainly did not intend this to be applied literally, for otherwise all Christians would be blind amputees! (cf. 1 John 1:8; 1 Tim. 1:15). We are all subject to "the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" (1 John 2:16).

Since Jesus is demonstrably using hyperbole when he says not to call anyone our father?else we would not be able to refer to our earthly fathers as such?we must read his words carefully and with sensitivity to the presence of hyperbole if we wish to understand what he is saying.

Jesus is not forbidding us to call men "fathers" who actually are such?either literally or spiritually. (See below on the apostolic example of spiritual fatherhood.) To refer to such people as fathers is only to acknowledge the truth, and Jesus is not against that. He is warning people against inaccurately attributing fatherhood?or a particular kind or degree of fatherhood?to those who do not have it.

As the apostolic example shows, some individuals genuinely do have a spiritual fatherhood, meaning that they can be referred to as spiritual fathers. What must not be done is to confuse their form of spiritual paternity with that of God. Ultimately, God is our supreme protector, provider, and instructor. Correspondingly, it is wrong to view any individual other than God as having these roles.

Throughout the world, some people have been tempted to look upon religious leaders who are mere mortals as if they were an individual?s supreme source of spiritual instruction, nourishment, and protection. The tendency to turn mere men into "gurus" is worldwide.

This was also a temptation in the Jewish world of Jesus? day, when famous rabbinical leaders, especially those who founded important schools, such as Hillel and Shammai, were highly exalted by their disciples. It is this elevation of an individual man?the formation of a "cult of personality" around him?of which Jesus is speaking when he warns against attributing to someone an undue role as master, father, or teacher.

He is not forbidding the perfunctory use of honorifics nor forbidding us to recognize that the person does have a role as a spiritual father and teacher. The example of his own apostles shows us that.



The Apostles Show the Way


The New Testament is filled with examples of and references to spiritual father-son and father-child relationships. Many people are not aware just how common these are, so it is worth quoting some of them here.

Paul regularly referred to Timothy as his child: "Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ" (1 Cor. 4:17); "To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (1 Tim. 1:2); "To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (2 Tim. 1:2).

He also referred to Timothy as his son: "This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare" (1 Tim 1:18); "You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 2:1); "But Timothy?s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel" (Phil. 2:22).

Paul also referred to other of his converts in this way: "To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior" (Titus 1:4); "I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment" (Philem. 10). None of these men were Paul?s literal, biological sons. Rather, Paul is emphasizing his spiritual fatherhood with them.



Spiritual Fatherhood


Perhaps the most pointed New Testament reference to the theology of the spiritual fatherhood of priests is Paul?s statement, "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14?15).

Peter followed the same custom, referring to Mark as his son: "She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark" (1 Pet. 5:13). The apostles sometimes referred to entire churches under their care as their children. Paul writes, "Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children" (2 Cor. 12:14); and, "My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!" (Gal. 4:19).

John said, "My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1); "No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth" (3 John 4). In fact, John also addresses men in his congregations as "fathers" (1 John 2:13?14).

By referring to these people as their spiritual sons and spiritual children, Peter, Paul, and John imply their own roles as spiritual fathers. Since the Bible frequently speaks of this spiritual fatherhood, we Catholics acknowledge it and follow the custom of the apostles by calling priests "father." Failure to acknowledge this is a failure to recognize and honor a great gift God has bestowed on the Church: the spiritual fatherhood of the priesthood.

Catholics know that as members of a parish, they have been committed to a priest?s spiritual care, thus they have great filial affection for priests and call them "father." Priests, in turn, follow the apostles? biblical example by referring to members of their flock as "my son" or "my child" (cf. Gal. 4:19; 1 Tim. 1:18; 2 Tim. 2:1; Philem. 10; 1 Pet. 5:13; 1 John 2:1; 3 John 4).

All of these passages were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and they express the infallibly recorded truth that Christ?s ministers do have a role as spiritual fathers. Jesus is not against acknowledging that. It is he who gave these men their role as spiritual fathers, and it is his Holy Spirit who recorded this role for us in the pages of Scripture. To acknowledge spiritual fatherhood is to acknowledge the truth, and no amount of anti-Catholic grumbling will change that fact.
 

kinev

Golden Member
Mar 28, 2005
1,647
30
91
No offense Glen, but we can both google cut and paste until the cows come home.

Apparently, some people are saying that my interpretation of Catholic doctrine is wrong. I disagree. The Catholic church teaches that the sacraments are integral to a person's salvation. [Reading Rainbow] But you don't have to take my word for it [/Reading Rainbow].

Catholic.org states:

"The doctrine of the sacraments is the doctrine of the second part of God's way of salvation to us."

"A sacrament, administered properly in the way established by Christ and with the proper intention, gives the grace it signifies."

"The Church Thus Teaches: There are seven sacraments. They were instituted by Christ and given to the Church to administer. They are necessary for salvation."

Yeah, yeah, I cut and pasted, but that is the official position of the Catholic church. Yes, the Catholic church believes in Jesus, but it's Jesus + sacraments for salvation. You can't really disagree with the fact that the Catholic church teaches this.

Contrast that to Christianity which teaches that faith in Jesus alone is the way to salvation. No sacraments, no works, just Grace through faith.

This might be a small distinction to atheists, but it is really the core of religion. If Christianity and Catholicism disagree about salvation, how can they be the same? They can't and they aren't.

Like I originally said, the question is dependent on the definition of Christian. If you define Christianity as following the teachings of Jesus and the Bible, then no, people who follow the teachings of the Catholic church are not Christians.

I tried to make a distinction between Catholic and the Catholic church because someone who calls them self a Catholic may not follow the teachings of the Catholic church.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
0
Originally posted by: glen
KruptosAngelos, Nik, kinev, and others, I am not sure you really want to know the truth as much as you want to think you are right.
You might talk to a Priest or go to Catholic Answers if you were sincere. When you or anyone start digging into the faith, you will find support for the historic apostolic faiths such as the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox, and Anglicans. The quienssential Protestant, Luthur, is essentially Catholic. He, and modern Luthurans hold a sacramental world view, and believe in Christ's Real presence in the Eucharist. I and others could go on and on defeding this view, but I am afraid it is pointless if you are not really interested in understanding more about Christianity.

I do already know the truth. There is no way around it, catholic teachings go against the words of Jesus. It's proven very easily, and there's no amount of interpretation to make scipture exactly the opposite. I know all about Christianity and cults, I've studied it for over 5 years. I have plenty of books and have talked to plenty of people. I'm not just another person with an opinion.
 

chrisms

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2003
6,615
0
0
Kinev, although he only cut and pasted the article I think it raises some interesting points. Either way I don't think anyone is going to convince anyone on this subject, but it has been one of the more interesting topics I've read on these forums. Especially because it didn't involve name calling or Bush :)

The final thing I have to say is that as someone who was raised Catholic, I am completely convinced that Catholics are Christians. I think it is important if you're going to argue about religion that you be upfront about what yours is, or how you were raised, because in any discussion about beliefs it is inevitable that your own bias will effect your arguement. While you can bring up any theoligical differences between faiths, one basic fact is true: the Catholic religion is based off of the teaching of Jesus, who is believed to be the Christ. Therefore it is a Christian faith.

And KruptosAngelos, you may have studied it for 5 years, but you are still another person with an opinion. I've been reading and learning about Biblical interpretations all my life, but I can still understand that others will interperet the Bible in extremely different ways than I would.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
0
Originally posted by: dornick
Okay, I think I mistated the Catholic position somewhat. Basically, as James says "faith without works is dead". In other words, faith is indeed what saves you, but it's no good if you aren't willing to act like a Christian.

That's not what James meant. It's like calling a tree an apple tree if it produces no apples. The way to know someone has faith is they produce works based on that faith. It's simply a measure of faith, a way to detect it. It's a result, not a requirement. If that makes sense. Real faith produces works.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,111
5,643
126
Originally posted by: kinev
No offense Glen, but we can both google cut and paste until the cows come home.

Apparently, some people are saying that my interpretation of Catholic doctrine is wrong. I disagree. The Catholic church teaches that the sacraments are integral to a person's salvation. [Reading Rainbow] But you don't have to take my word for it [/Reading Rainbow].

Catholic.org states:

"The doctrine of the sacraments is the doctrine of the second part of God's way of salvation to us."

"A sacrament, administered properly in the way established by Christ and with the proper intention, gives the grace it signifies."

"The Church Thus Teaches: There are seven sacraments. They were instituted by Christ and given to the Church to administer. They are necessary for salvation."

Yeah, yeah, I cut and pasted, but that is the official position of the Catholic church. Yes, the Catholic church believes in Jesus, but it's Jesus + sacraments for salvation. You can't really disagree with the fact that the Catholic church teaches this.

Contrast that to Christianity which teaches that faith in Jesus alone is the way to salvation. No sacraments, no works, just Grace through faith.

This might be a small distinction to atheists, but it is really the core of religion. If Christianity and Catholicism disagree about salvation, how can they be the same? They can't and they aren't.

Like I originally said, the question is dependent on the definition of Christian. If you define Christianity as following the teachings of Jesus and the Bible, then no, people who follow the teachings of the Catholic church are not Christians.

I tried to make a distinction between Catholic and the Catholic church because someone who calls them self a Catholic may not follow the teachings of the Catholic church.

Your opinion, not Fact. All Christian sects deviate from scripture, it is inevitable.
 

kinev

Golden Member
Mar 28, 2005
1,647
30
91
Originally posted by: chrisms
While you can bring up any theoligical differences between faiths, one basic fact is true: the Catholic religion is based off of the teaching of Jesus, who is believed to be the Christ. Therefore it is a Christian faith.

Well, that basic fact is not true. See my previous post. The Catholic faith is not based off the teachings of Jesus. That is the problem.

Oh, and I was raised in a protestant home and I consider myself a non-denominational Christian. I go to a Bible church.
 

chrisms

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2003
6,615
0
0
Originally posted by: kinev
Originally posted by: chrisms
While you can bring up any theoligical differences between faiths, one basic fact is true: the Catholic religion is based off of the teaching of Jesus, who is believed to be the Christ. Therefore it is a Christian faith.

Well, that basic fact is not true. See my previous post. The Catholic faith is not based off the teachings of Jesus. That is the problem.

Oh, and I was raised in a protestant home and I consider myself a non-denominational Christian. I go to a Bible church.

Well we may as well have an Israeli argue a Palestinian :) Someone who was raised Catholic (me) and someone who was raised Protestant (you) are going to have completely opposite views on this matter.

Like I said I was raised Catholic and Jesus was the center of our faith, and his teachings always came first in mass and school. Take it or leave it I still say Catholicism is a Christ-centered and therfore Christian religion.
 

kinev

Golden Member
Mar 28, 2005
1,647
30
91
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: kinev
No offense Glen, but we can both google cut and paste until the cows come home.

Apparently, some people are saying that my interpretation of Catholic doctrine is wrong. I disagree. The Catholic church teaches that the sacraments are integral to a person's salvation. [Reading Rainbow] But you don't have to take my word for it [/Reading Rainbow].

Catholic.org states:

"The doctrine of the sacraments is the doctrine of the second part of God's way of salvation to us."

"A sacrament, administered properly in the way established by Christ and with the proper intention, gives the grace it signifies."

"The Church Thus Teaches: There are seven sacraments. They were instituted by Christ and given to the Church to administer. They are necessary for salvation."

Yeah, yeah, I cut and pasted, but that is the official position of the Catholic church. Yes, the Catholic church believes in Jesus, but it's Jesus + sacraments for salvation. You can't really disagree with the fact that the Catholic church teaches this.

Contrast that to Christianity which teaches that faith in Jesus alone is the way to salvation. No sacraments, no works, just Grace through faith.

This might be a small distinction to atheists, but it is really the core of religion. If Christianity and Catholicism disagree about salvation, how can they be the same? They can't and they aren't.

Like I originally said, the question is dependent on the definition of Christian. If you define Christianity as following the teachings of Jesus and the Bible, then no, people who follow the teachings of the Catholic church are not Christians.

I tried to make a distinction between Catholic and the Catholic church because someone who calls them self a Catholic may not follow the teachings of the Catholic church.

Your opinion, not Fact. All Christian sects deviate from scripture, it is inevitable.

Which part is my opinion? I suppose my definition of Christianity is opinion, but what else?
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
0
Glen -

I was going to just pick through the verses you pasted, but after only a couple I saw it as a waste. Some of them didn't even have the word father in them at all. Others referenced God, not a man. Please read what you are going to paste before doing it. Everything I post is from my own studies. If you want to argue my statements, at least know what you are talking about first.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Your opinion, not Fact. All Christian sects deviate from scripture, it is inevitable.

If they are a cult, sure. We don't have sects. That's the big picture here. Christianity is Christianity, there are no sects, only cults. Deviations are not permissible.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
14,696
2
0
Originally posted by: chrisms
And KruptosAngelos, you may have studied it for 5 years, but you are still another person with an opinion. I've been reading and learning about Biblical interpretations all my life, but I can still understand that others will interperet the Bible in extremely different ways than I would.

But it's not opinion :confused:

It may be ok for you for your beliefs to be just tossed around, but I think they are far too important. We are talking heaven and hell here, get serious.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91
Originally posted by: LordMorpheus
The only christian branch that there is even a doubt with is the mormons, because their faith is so different from all the other Christian faiths.

Catholics are Christians.

They believe that a bunch of humans (note: I was so friendly as to replace the word 'pedophiles' I had typed earlier with 'humans', eventhough I don't really rank them high enough to see them as being human or humane) can appoint a replacement for Jesus on Earth, so you are saying that's what true Christians are like?

They may have the same religious basis as Protestants, but believe in Saints and stuff like that. Most of the things they believe in either goes against the Bible, or simply has nothing to do with it (and in a lot of cases concerned local Pagan believes and practices which were made into Catholic events to be able to get the local population to join the religion).

However, Islam is just as much as unity as Christianity. Shi'tes and Sunnis are also totally different in their views of Islam.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,111
5,643
126
Originally posted by: kinev
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: kinev
No offense Glen, but we can both google cut and paste until the cows come home.

Apparently, some people are saying that my interpretation of Catholic doctrine is wrong. I disagree. The Catholic church teaches that the sacraments are integral to a person's salvation. [Reading Rainbow] But you don't have to take my word for it [/Reading Rainbow].

Catholic.org states:

"The doctrine of the sacraments is the doctrine of the second part of God's way of salvation to us."

"A sacrament, administered properly in the way established by Christ and with the proper intention, gives the grace it signifies."

"The Church Thus Teaches: There are seven sacraments. They were instituted by Christ and given to the Church to administer. They are necessary for salvation."

Yeah, yeah, I cut and pasted, but that is the official position of the Catholic church. Yes, the Catholic church believes in Jesus, but it's Jesus + sacraments for salvation. You can't really disagree with the fact that the Catholic church teaches this.

Contrast that to Christianity which teaches that faith in Jesus alone is the way to salvation. No sacraments, no works, just Grace through faith.

This might be a small distinction to atheists, but it is really the core of religion. If Christianity and Catholicism disagree about salvation, how can they be the same? They can't and they aren't.

Like I originally said, the question is dependent on the definition of Christian. If you define Christianity as following the teachings of Jesus and the Bible, then no, people who follow the teachings of the Catholic church are not Christians.

I tried to make a distinction between Catholic and the Catholic church because someone who calls them self a Catholic may not follow the teachings of the Catholic church.

Your opinion, not Fact. All Christian sects deviate from scripture, it is inevitable.

Which part is my opinion? I suppose my definition of Christianity is opinion, but what else?

It's all opinion.