Carson: Theory Of Evolution Encouraged By The Devil

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
136
...OR could be nothing other than what we know he rejects.

Views on evolution don’t actually tell you anything about how a politician will act or how he’ll approach science-based issues.

It very well could be nothing else, but views on evolution absolutely tell us something about how a person will approach science based issues. In this case at least, he is rejecting completely settled, overwhelming scientific evidence. That's a science based issue right there.

For example, I do not believe in molecules to man evolution -- I believe God created life, and designed life in such a way that it can adapt to survive and provide variety as a result, but I am a proponent of curbing man-made climate-change, funding research into disease control and prevention, and other endeavors that science can use to improve humanity, as long as they are beneficial.

While I find no reason to believe in directed or designed evolution, that is a theory that is not at odds with the scientific evidence (principally because it is not falsifiable). Rejection of evolution entirely is.

Your approach to that scientific issue is one I disagree with, but one that is not illogical. Carson's view is illogical, and voting for illogical people sounds like a bad idea, no?

I just think you're a bigot, quite honestly -- because you're ignoring what a potential candidate can bring to the table simpy because he doesn't agree with you.

Quite honestly, I think you don't understand the definition of bigotry. As best as I can tell your definition of bigotry changes based on how much it affects Christians.

People refusing service to gay people based on no action they have taken, just their sexual orientation? Not bigotry, just people of faith!

People not wanting to vote someone based on actual actions, ie: rejection of science? Bigotry!
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Not only is it more plausible, it seems to have more evidence to support it. If you take one look at the world today it would be easy to sell the idea of a cosmic jerk pulling the strings pitting people against people, floods, diseases, starvation, violence, Bieber, wars, genocide, etc etc etc. But those same things work against the ludicrous idea of an omnipotent, loving creator god. An omnipotent, loving creator god wouldn't want those things and he'd be capable of wiping them out with a wave of his omnipotent, loving creator god hand. So if anything, viewing Satan as a real entity is a slightly more rational response to reality than viewing an omnipotent, loving creator god as a real entity. Those are the people that need to be committed.

CS Lewis came to a similar conclusion when he was an atheist. It's in his preface to The Problem of Pain. But that's not the end of the investigation.

If you're interested:

http://www.gutenberg.ca/ebooks/lewiscs-problemofpain/lewiscs-problemofpain-00-h.html#chapter01

Not many years ago when I was an atheist, if anyone had asked me, “Why do you not believe in God?” my reply would have run something like this: “Look at the universe we live in. By far the greatest part of it consists of empty space, completely dark and unimaginably cold. The bodies which move in this space are so few and so small in comparison with the space itself that even if every one of them were known to be crowded as full as it could hold with perfectly happy creatures, it would still be difficult to believe that life and happiness were more than a bye-product to the power that made the universe. As it is, however, the scientists think it likely that very few of the suns of space—perhaps none of them except our own—have any planets; and in our own system it is improbable that any planet except the Earth sustains life. And Earth herself existed without life for millions of years and may exist for millions more when life has left her. And what is it like while it lasts? It is so arranged that all the [2] forms of it can live only by preying upon one another. In the lower forms this process entails only death, but in the higher there appears a new quality called consciousness which enables it to be attended with pain. The creatures cause pain by being born, and live by inflicting pain, and in pain they mostly die. In the most complex of all the creatures, Man, yet another quality appears, which we call reason, whereby he is enabled to foresee his own pain which henceforth is preceded with acute mental suffering, and to foresee his own death while keenly desiring permanence. It also enables men by a hundred ingenious contrivances to inflict a great deal more pain than they otherwise could have done on one another and on the irrational creatures. This power they have exploited to the full. Their history is largely a record of crime, war, disease, and terror, with just sufficient happiness interposed to give them, while it lasts, an agonised apprehension of losing it, and, when it is lost, the poignant misery of remembering. Every now and then they improve their condition a little and what we call a civilisation appears. But all civilisations pass away and, even while they remain, inflict peculiar sufferings of their own probably sufficient to outweigh what alleviations they may have brought to the normal pains of man. That our own civilisation has done so, no one will dispute; that it will pass away like all its predecessors is surely probable. Even if it should not, what then? The race is doomed. Every race that comes into being in any part of the universe is doomed; for the universe, they tell us, is running down, and will sometime be a uniform infinity of homogeneous matter at a low temperature. All [3] stories will come to nothing: all life will turn out in the end to have been a transitory and senseless contortion upon the idiotic face of infinite matter. If you ask me to believe that this is the work of a benevolent and omnipotent spirit, I reply that all the evidence points in the opposite direction. Either there is no spirit behind the universe, or else a spirit indifferent to good and evil, or else an evil spirit.”

There was one question which I never dreamed of raising. I never noticed that the very strength and facility of the pessimists’ case at once poses us a problem. If the universe is so bad, or even half so bad, how on earth did human beings ever come to attribute it to the activity of a wise and good Creator? Men are fools, perhaps; but hardly so foolish as that. The direct inference from black to white, from evil flower to virtuous root, from senseless work to a workman infinitely wise, staggers belief. The spectacle of the universe as revealed by experience can never have been the ground of religion: it must always have been something in spite of which religion, acquired from a different source, was held.

It would be an error to reply that our ancestors were ignorant and therefore entertained pleasing illusions about nature which the progress of science has since dispelled. For centuries, during which all men believed, the nightmare size and emptiness of the universe was already known. You will read in some books that the men of the Middle Ages thought the Earth flat and the stars near, but that is a lie. Ptolemy had told them that the Earth was a mathematical point without size in relation to the distance of the fixed stars—a distance which one mediæval [4] popular text estimates as a hundred and seventeen million miles. And in times yet earlier, even from the beginnings, men must have got the same sense of hostile immensity from a more obvious source. To prehistoric man the neighbouring forest must have been infinite enough, and the utterly alien and infest which we have to fetch from the thought of cosmic rays and cooling suns, came snuffing and howling nightly to his very doors. Certainly at all periods the pain and waste of human life was equally obvious. Our own religion begins among the Jews, a people squeezed between great warlike empires, continually defeated and led captive, familiar as Poland or Armenia with the tragic story of the conquered. It is mere nonsense to put pain among the discoveries of science. Lay down this book and reflect for five minutes on the fact that all the great religions were first preached, and long practised, in a world without chloroform.

At all times, then, an inference from the course of events in this world to the goodness and wisdom of the Creator would have been equally preposterous; and it was never made.[2] Religion has a different origin. In what follows it must be understood that I am not primarily arguing the truth of Christianity but describing its origin—a task, in my view, necessary if we are to put the problem of pain in its right setting.

If you'd like to read his inference regarding the origin of religion, it follows immediately from the section I quoted; the whole book's available in the link I provided.
 
Last edited:

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
106
It very well could be nothing else, but views on evolution absolutely tell us something about how a person will approach science based issues. In this case at least, he is rejecting completely settled, overwhelming scientific evidence. That's a science based issue right there.

I think my point is this: evolution (more specifically, evolutionary biology) is one field of science just like basketball is one subset of Sports.

If I hate basketball, or think it the worst thing on Earth, does that tell you automatically that I will hate Soccer, or will mismanage a Soccer team?

How does my view of molecules to man evolution affect my view of climate-change?

I already stated that if I were President, climate-change is something I think we need to act on, and something I personally support in whatever fashion I can.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
Did you ever wonder if these people, who are intelligent enough to get elected, are actually that stupid? Or if they're smart enough to pretend to believe in these things so the idiots they represent will keep electing them?

I went to Adventist schools (up through undergrad) and used to believe a lot of their doctrines, including the young earth Creationism stuff. My own assessment is maybe not the most reliable but I don't think I was stupid. Just badly informed, heavily indoctrinated from a young age, and emotionally invested in the universe working a certain way.

SDAs are usually hard core about Biblical literalism. If you find holes in the Bible (which IMO evolution goes against both the letter and spirit of) everything else starts to fall apart. There really isn't a lot of room for compromise. That's also why SDAs try harder than other Christians to follow a bunch of the Old Testament stuff too, hence the Saturday worship and vaguely keeping kosher diet (actually they have a vegetarian "health message" but not eating things like pork and shellfish is where they draw their moral line)

Despite this, the biology departments in SDA universities still teach evolution and a lot of the hard sciences professors in other disciplines still admit it, even if most of the students don't. There's just no way they could avoid it, especially not while being accredited as they are. I feel sorry for these teachers who have to deal with both this internal conflict and students who feel like their mandatory science education is at odds with their mandatory religious education and approach these professors genuinely upset over the implications of what they teach.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
136
I think my point is this: evolution (more specifically, evolutionary biology) is one field of science just like basketball is one subset of Sports.

If I hate basketball, or think it the worst thing on Earth, does that tell you automatically that I will hate Soccer, or will mismanage a Soccer team?

If you managed a basketball team and you ignored proven methods for running a successful basketball franchise based on your personal beliefs (that were empirically disproven) I would expect that you would exhibit a strong potential to ignore proven methods for running a successful soccer franchise based on your personal beliefs.

I would be reluctant to hire such a person.

How does my view of molecules to man evolution affect my view of climate-change?

I already stated that if I were President, climate-change is something I think we need to act on, and something I personally support in whatever fashion I can.

That's great!

As I already mentioned, I don't find your views on evolution or the origin of life to be at odds with overwhelming scientific evidence. Unfortunately the same is not true for our good friend Ben.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
Did you ever wonder if these people, who are intelligent enough to get elected, are actually that stupid? Or if they're smart enough to pretend to believe in these things so the idiots they represent will keep electing them?
Without question.

They have it easy too.. it's the SAME issues they have been pretend fighting over for the last 40+ years. They don't even have to update the material.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
I went to Adventist schools (up through undergrad) and used to believe a lot of their doctrines, including the young earth Creationism stuff. My own assessment is maybe not the most reliable but I don't think I was stupid. Just badly informed, heavily indoctrinated from a young age, and emotionally invested in the universe working a certain way.

SDAs are usually hard core about Biblical literalism. If you find holes in the Bible (which IMO evolution goes against both the letter and spirit of) everything else starts to fall apart. There really isn't a lot of room for compromise. That's also why SDAs try harder than other Christians to follow a bunch of the Old Testament stuff too, hence the Saturday worship and vaguely keeping kosher diet (actually they have a vegetarian "health message" but not eating things like pork and shellfish is where they draw their moral line)

Despite this, the biology departments in SDA universities still teach evolution and a lot of the hard sciences professors in other disciplines still admit it, even if most of the students don't. There's just no way they could avoid it, especially not while being accredited as they are. I feel sorry for these teachers who have to deal with both this internal conflict and students who feel like their mandatory science education is at odds with their mandatory religious education and approach these professors genuinely upset over the implications of what they teach.

I've always thought that no Christian should perceive any threat from scientific undertakings provided they are ethical (not treating humans as guinea pigs for example). Christianity and many other religions have done much to advance the sciences. We are meant to use our brains; God (at least the Christian God) wants sons, not slaves.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
106
If you managed a basketball team and you ignored proven methods for running a successful basketball franchise based on your personal beliefs (that were empirically disproven) I would expect that you would exhibit a strong potential to ignore proven methods for running a successful soccer franchise based on your personal beliefs.

Who said anything about the method? Didn't this same method lead geologists to conclude that Continents didn't drift, and thus Dift was "pseudo-science"? (making non-drift "settled science", by default).

Of course, disagreeing with that conclusion didn't make people "anti-science", did it?

..or maybe it did, since the science of the time was right, but in reality wrong.

My point is that science has enough farts in its history that its best to refrain from terming people "anti-science" and concluding that people will make bad decisions because they are in disagreement with "settled" science.
 
Last edited:

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Are all those good people the bad people's bosses?

If God is all-powerful, then Satan is His servant. Or God isn't all-powerful. There's no other logical way around it.
Why does all powerful mean that those below the one that is all powerful must be his servants.

What if the all powerful being imbued those servants with free will and the ability to choose to serve or not, in doing so takes the risk that some will rebel, does that somehow make the being you call God not all powerful somehow?
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
I've always thought that no Christian should perceive any threat from scientific undertakings provided they are ethical (not treating humans as guinea pigs for example). Christianity and many other religions have done much to advance the sciences. We are meant to use our brains; God (at least the Christian God) wants sons, not slaves.

The entire basis of Christianity is the Bible as an authoritative source. The overlying belief is that the canon is protected by God himself and everything in it is reliable. If you show that parts of it are not reliable (and a lot of it can easily be shown to be) the whole thing falls apart.

I trusted the Bible for a while because I believed not only that it was plausible as a historical record but that various pieces of secondary evidence further supported it. This was based on a considerable amount of supplied misinformation. But it was still a model grounded in evidence, not blind faith. A lot of Christians seem to reason that you should have faith in the Bible because the Bible tells you to have faith. That's an absurd circular argument.

Actual evidence has shown that life has developed through a long series of natural adaptations, in a process that's both fairly chaotic, inefficient, and full of a lot of organisms (including humans and their immediate predecessors). This is highly at odds with the model of God deliberately creating life with specific complete designs resembling those of today, and death being a temporary byproduct of bad behavior instead of something crucial by design.

Mind you, even if evolution weren't heavily supported by scientific evidence I still wouldn't have a compelling reason to believe in any particular gods (much less the Christian one) because there simply isn't evidence.

People want to have their cake and eat it too by trying to reconcile two incompatible worldviews without thinking about it much, compartmentalizing both in two separate parts of their brains. They may be able to ignore any science as threats, but their religious beliefs are not some intangible philosophy that exists completely separately from physical reality. Such a thing would be meaningless. When you say Christians shouldn't feel threatened by science what that means is that they shouldn't let their beliefs be challenged by facts. But all beliefs should be open for challenge in light of better evidence.
 

Hugo Drax

Diamond Member
Nov 20, 2011
5,647
47
91
We need 4 parties.

DEM-R
DEM-NR
GOP-R
GOP-NR

(R) - religious
(NR) - non religious

4 parties VS 2
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
136
Who said anything about the method? Didn't this same method lead geologists to conclude that Continents didn't drift, and thus Dift was "pseudo-science"? (making non-drift "settled science", by default).

Of course, disagreeing with that conclusion didn't make people "anti-science", did it?

..or maybe it did, since the science of the time was right, but in reality wrong.

Anything commonly accepted is not settled science. Theories supported by overwhelming empirical evidence is generally considered to be settled, like evolution. There was always in fact considerable evidence for continents moving over time.

Just because science was wrong sometime doesn't mean that any theory that rejects mainstream science must be accorded respect.

My point is that science has enough farts in its history that its best to refrain from terming people "anti-science" and concluding that people will make bad decisions because they are in disagreement with "settled" science.

Disagreeing with the conclusions of science does not necessarily make someone anti-science. Carson is anti-science here because he rejects standards of scientific inquiry and evidence. Being anti-science isn't about your conclusions, but your method of getting there. In the case of evolution Carson's methods are deeply flawed.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Anything commonly accepted is not settled science. Theories supported by overwhelming empirical evidence is generally considered to be settled, like evolution. There was always in fact considerable evidence for continents moving over time.

That is utter horse shit. The ONLY place where the term "settled science" is used is in climate change. The ONLY reason the term is used is to further a political agenda. SETTTLED SCIENCE is an OXYMORON and a slap in the face to real science. Einstein would never have used such an outrageous and disgusting term.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
106
Disagreeing with the conclusions of science does not necessarily make someone anti-science. Carson is anti-science here because he rejects standards of scientific inquiry and evidence. Being anti-science isn't about your conclusions, but your method of getting there. In the case of evolution Carson's methods are deeply flawed.

Eskimo, people are almost never asked "do you accept the scientific method used to arrive at evolution " because the question isn't framed to get an informed answer, but to paint someone as anti-science.

I thought Carson said evolution is from the Devil, not "the scientific method is from the Devil", unless I missed something.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
106
That is utter horse shit. The ONLY place where the term "settled science" is used is in climate change. The ONLY reason the term is used is to further a political agenda. SETTTLED SCIENCE is an OXYMORON and a slap in the face to real science. Einstein would never have used such an outrageous and disgusting term.

"Settled science" is simply a term designed to intimate and pressure lay people into accepting their conclusion without question.

What every-day American has the gall to go against consensus and "settled science"?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
136
That is utter horse shit. The ONLY place where the term "settled science" is used is in climate change. The ONLY reason the term is used is to further a political agenda. SETTTLED SCIENCE is an OXYMORON and a slap in the face to real science. Einstein would never have used such an outrageous and disgusting term.

You have made it abundantly clear that you don't understand science, and I'm pretty sure you've actually even admitted as much. You have no idea what Einstein would have used, and even if he didn't that's meaningless.

The term is used for areas of science where the evidence is so overwhelming that without some radical new evidence being introduced the debate has simply moved past that point. This is true for things like climate science and evolution. It's not so much a statement that nothing could EVER change as it is a statement that the current state of science accepts it as a given.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
136
Eskimo, people are almost never asked "do you accept the scientific method used to arrive at evolution " because the question isn't framed to get an informed answer, but to paint someone as anti-science.

I thought Carson said evolution is from the Devil, not "the scientific method is from the Devil", unless I missed something.

Nobody is painting Carson as anti-science, he has clearly and unequivocally rejected science in this case. You might not like that, but that's what he did.

It doesn't matter that he said evolution was from the devil and not the scientific method. If he actually accepted the scientific method then he wouldn't be rejecting evolution. He has shown a willingness to toss science overboard when it conflicts with his religion. No thanks.

You're again veering towards a persecution complex about Christians here and I'm not sure why. Carson believes unscientific things and he has been rightly called out for that. We should all support this.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
106
It doesn't matter that he said evolution was from the devil and not the scientific method. If he actually accepted the scientific method then he wouldn't be rejecting evolution.

So your saying, and I quote: "Disagreeing with the conclusions of science does not necessarily make someone anti-science" is just all double speak since you're saying above that rejecting the scientific method is the same as rejecting the conclusion (evolution), thus anyone rejecting evolution IS also rejecting the method and are thus, anti-science.

You're again veering towards a persecution complex about Christians here and I'm not sure why.

Bullshit.

Don't make this about me -- address why you're doubling-back on your initial claim that rejecting conclusions isn't rejecting science, but rejecting the conclusion IS rejecting science.

..or explain why I am wrong about you here.
 
Last edited:

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
The term is used for areas of science where the evidence is so overwhelming that without some radical new evidence being introduced the debate has simply moved past that point. This is true for things like climate science and evolution. It's not so much a statement that nothing could EVER change as it is a statement that the current state of science accepts it as a given.


Um... FUCK THAT. Do a search on the term "settled science". Every single result you get will be in reference to global warming.... EVERY... SINGLE.... FUCKING..... ONE....

Settled science is the ENEMY of science. It is the EXACT and POLAR opposite of science.

One of the most dangerous of these biases is the concept of ‘settled science’.
Science, by definition, can never be settled.

The Scientific Method has been adhered to since the Enlightenment. It is composed of five or six steps
  1. Observation
  2. Hypothesis
  3. Experiment
  4. Record and analyze data
  5. Compare the results to the hypothesis.
  6. If necessary, either modify the hypothesis or the experiment
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
Um... FUCK THAT. Do a search on the term "settled science". Every single result you get will be in reference to global warming.... EVERY... SINGLE.... FUCKING..... ONE....

Settled science is the ENEMY of science. It is the EXACT and POLAR opposite of science.

Do you believe in intelligent falling or gravity?

Is the core of the planet full of lizard people? Or a core of liquid iron?

Are we in a heliocentric or geocentirc solar system?

Is the earth flat? Or a woobly sphere?
 
Last edited:

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
136
So your saying, and I quote: "Disagreeing with the conclusions of science does not necessarily make someone anti-science" is just all double speak since you're saying above that rejecting the scientific method is the same as rejecting the conclusion (evolution), thus anyone rejecting evolution IS also rejecting the method and are thus, anti-science.

That is because the evidence is so overwhelming there is no logical way to arrive at Ben Carson's conclusion about the origin of species while employing the scientific method.

In other cases where the evidence is less overwhelming rejecting the conclusions is not rejecting science, but in this case it is simply so... so overwhelming I can't see how it's possible.

Bullshit.

Don't make this about me -- address why you're doubling-back on your initial claim that rejecting conclusions isn't rejecting science, but rejecting the conclusion IS rejecting science.

See above!
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
106
Um... FUCK THAT. Do a search on the term "settled science". Every single result you get will be in reference to global warming.... EVERY... SINGLE.... FUCKING..... ONE....

Settled science is the ENEMY of science. It is the EXACT and POLAR opposite of science.

Settled science is the enemy of science in the sense that they're saying they have complete knowledge and there is no longer a need to research a theory, and it becomes closed to any further inquiry.

Welcome Geocentricism 2.0!!
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
106
That is because the evidence is so overwhelming there is no logical way to arrive at Ben Carson's conclusion about the origin of species while employing the scientific method.

I'm sure Ptolemy and his supporters said the same thing.