Can't shoot someone unless they have a gun too

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Abraxas

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2004
1,056
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Know this you stupid fuck, if widespread gun control ever comes to America, it will be you and those like you that brought it by convincing a largely ambivalent general public you are too unstable and too violent to be trusted with a firearm. If you don't mind handing in your guns to the nice ATF official, by all means, keep acting like a fire-breathing asshole ranting about how you are going to raise an army to murder people.

What you don't get is you aren't trying to convince the hardliners in the opposition that gun control is a bad idea; as you pointed out, that won't happen. However, the vast majority of America really isn't invested that much in the debate, they don't feel all that strongly about it. When you open your mouth and start spouting off about how you are going to form an army to murder people and they are presented with taking your guns away or letting you keep them, which politician will they vote for? In case you couldn't tell, being a lunatic fucknut and all, when you threaten to go on shooting rampages that makes people feel less okay with you having access to anything more dangerous than toilet paper.

You can keep the general public on your side by pointing to things like self defense or the countless millions of guns in circulation that are used in a safe and responsible manner each day, or at least if not on your side not interested enough to pass legislation, or you can threaten to murder them with guns just before they vote on whether you get keep them. Yeah, you are welcome to your opinion but that doesn't make it or you any less stupid for voicing it.
 
May 16, 2000
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Know this you stupid fuck, if widespread gun control ever comes to America, it will be you and those like you that brought it by convincing a largely ambivalent general public you are too unstable and too violent to be trusted with a firearm. If you don't mind handing in your guns to the nice ATF official, by all means, keep acting like a fire-breathing asshole ranting about how you are going to raise an army to murder people.

What you don't get is you aren't trying to convince the hardliners in the opposition that gun control is a bad idea; as you pointed out, that won't happen. However, the vast majority of America really isn't invested that much in the debate, they don't feel all that strongly about it. When you open your mouth and start spouting off about how you are going to form an army to murder people and they are presented with taking your guns away or letting you keep them, which politician will they vote for? In case you couldn't tell, being a lunatic fucknut and all, when you threaten to go on shooting rampages that makes people feel less okay with you having access to anything more dangerous than toilet paper.

You can keep the general public on your side by pointing to things like self defense or the countless millions of guns in circulation that are used in a safe and responsible manner each day, or at least if not on your side not interested enough to pass legislation, or you can threaten to murder them with guns just before they vote on whether you get keep them. Yeah, you are welcome to your opinion but that doesn't make it or you any less stupid for voicing it.

You're naive as fuck.

All the facts have been available for decades. They were pointed out during the gun banning craze of the 80s-90s. It had no effect. Instead, more and more restrictive laws were passed until the right was bordering on being lost completely.

You can't convince anyone, even the uninterested masses. What's more, the masses don't decide the rules/laws, those hardliners (on all sides) you talked about do.

Logic, reason, knowledge, peace...these things are meaningless to policy or society (even though they SHOULD be the only things that matter). Only one thing actually matters in the end - force. Just accept it, use it, and get on with life.
 

Abraxas

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2004
1,056
0
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You're naive as fuck.

All the facts have been available for decades. They were pointed out during the gun banning craze of the 80s-90s. It had no effect. Instead, more and more restrictive laws were passed until the right was bordering on being lost completely.

You can't convince anyone, even the uninterested masses. What's more, the masses don't decide the rules/laws, those hardliners (on all sides) you talked about do.

Logic, reason, knowledge, peace...these things are meaningless to policy or society (even though they SHOULD be the only things that matter). Only one thing actually matters in the end - force. Just accept it, use it, and get on with life.

No, for the most part they don't respond to logic, reason, knowledge, etc. They do, however, respond to threats of violence and they tend to respond badly. Just like 9/11, "I'm scare Islam will hurt me so pass the Patriot act".

This is a simple litmus test you do to figure out if you are helping or hurting.

Your post about raising an army and murdering is now famous. That post has just made it on to every news network in the world. Congratulations! But wait, who made that post famous? Was it the NRA or another part of the gun lobby circulating your post as a concise and persuasive narrative on why guns are good or is it famous because an anti-gun group decided it was a concise and persuasive narrative on why guns need to be taken away?

When you sort through that and figure it out, you'll know why you need to stop saying stupid shit like how the anti-gun people are going to be murdered with guns.
 
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May 16, 2000
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No, for the most part they don't respond to logic, reason, knowledge, etc. They do, however, respond to threats of violence and they tend to respond badly. This is a simple litmus test you do to figure out if you are helping or hurting.

Your post about raising an army and murdering is now famous. That post has just made it on to every news network in the world. Congratulations! But wait, who made that post famous? Was it the NRA or another part of the gun lobby circulating your post as a concise and persuasive narrative on why guns are good or is it famous because an anti-gun group decided it was a concise and persuasive narrative on why guns need to be taken away?

When you sort through that and figure it out, you'll know why you need to stop saying stupid shit like how the anti-gun people are going to be murdered with guns.

People don't want to ban guns 'because of people like me'. If they did, they'd at LEAST have an argument. They want to ban guns because they're ignorant, wrong, evil, and/or dedicated to their position without basis or need.

They wanted to ban guns centuries before I was born, and they'll want to ban them if I never speak another word, and they'll want to ban them centuries after I die. It has NOTHING to do with me at all, nor people like me. It has to do with THEM.

All I'm doing is letting them know the facts. There will be consequences for certain actions, just like raping someone sends you to prison, or lighting yourself on fire will hurt. Banning private firearm possession WILL result in open warfare. It's just that simple.
 

Abraxas

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2004
1,056
0
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People don't want to ban guns 'because of people like me'. If they did, they'd at LEAST have an argument. They want to ban guns because they're ignorant, wrong, evil, and/or dedicated to their position without basis or need.

They wanted to ban guns centuries before I was born, and they'll want to ban them if I never speak another word, and they'll want to ban them centuries after I die. It has NOTHING to do with me at all, nor people like me. It has to do with THEM.

All I'm doing is letting them know the facts. There will be consequences for certain actions, just like raping someone sends you to prison, or lighting yourself on fire will hurt. Banning private firearm possession WILL result in open warfare. It's just that simple.

People want to ban guns because guns make it easy to kill. They see people getting killed, recognize that guns make it easier and more efficient if not simply enabling it at all, and they want to do something to save lives. Their hearts at least are mostly in the right place, their method is simply ineffective. More than that, a lot of countries have banned guns. None of which I am aware had a revolution as a result.

You might get a few lone nutjobs trying to fight a guerrilla war against law enforcement and society at large (thus justifying the need to ban guns in the first place to a lot of people) but it is a war you will never win because they can wait forever for you to come into the open and can legally kill you just so long as they can claim they thought you were dangerous. For the most part though, people who own guns will turn them in without a fuss because they aren't ready to give up their jobs or go living off the grid or take their families into a bloody war.

You call me naive? Look around you, people already give up constitutional protections in massive numbers because it is too inconvenient to do anything about it. You honestly think the rebel alliance is going to rise against the evil empire when one more in a long chain of rights is trodden on? People will bitch, grumble, and then go about their daily lives because it is too much work and they have too much to lose to do anything else.

Further, have you perhaps noticed that police agencies are becoming more militarized? How do you think it will play out when an armed insurrectionist group (yes, that is what the media will call you and how the police will classify you) starts a war? You'll last a couple months until your local metro PD buys some shiny new drones to safely dispose of dangerous cop killers.

Bottom lining it, no, there won't be a war of any note, no, you aren't going to frighten the government into backing down if and when they decide to come for your guns, but you might accomplish is convincing some expecting mother somewhere that she doesn't want her kid to grow up in a nation where someone could go on a killing spree over political differences and write her congressman to pass a law. Fear makes people go to whoever is offering them safety and right now, that is the anti-gun crowd. When you threaten people with guns, they get afraid of guns. When they are afraid of guns, they try to pass laws to ban them.
 
May 16, 2000
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People want to ban guns because guns make it easy to kill. They see people getting killed, recognize that guns make it easier and more efficient if not simply enabling it at all, and they want to do something to save lives. Their hearts at least are mostly in the right place, their method is simply ineffective. More than that, a lot of countries have banned guns. None of which I am aware had a revolution as a result.

Like I said, because they're wrong, ignorant, etc.

You might get a few lone nutjobs

70-85% of people consistently oppose blanket bans of firearms. 20-40% support the idea of armed revolution against the government under some foreseeable circumstances. There are currently ~1360 tracked militia and para-military groups in the US. ~477 Sheriffs have declared they will refuse to enforce or support firearm bans or blanket confiscations. Numerous states have signed legislation refusing to adhere to the mere whisper of moderate gun laws, never mind bans and confiscations.

trying to fight a guerrilla war against law enforcement and society at large (thus justifying the need to ban guns in the first place to a lot of people) but it is a war you will never win because they can wait forever for you to come into the open and can legally kill you just so long as they can claim they thought you were dangerous. For the most part though, people who own guns will turn them in without a fuss because they aren't ready to give up their jobs or go living off the grid or take their families into a bloody war.

Incorrect. It is we who can wait forever, and government who must act or be perceived/declared impotent, and lose all credibility and force of law. Further, we KNOW who they are, almost to the last man. They have to jump a lot of hoops to find out who we are, and we change faster than they do.

Also, your statement presumes 'society at large' will support such an act, but it will not as already shown in study after poll after fact. The 'few nutjobs' are the ones doing the banning, and while they have fleeting illusory power they are insignificant compared to the will of a massed populace, especially a heavily armed and trained one (which we are).

You call me naive? Look around you, people already give up constitutional protections in massive numbers because it is too inconvenient to do anything about it. You honestly think the rebel alliance is going to rise against the evil empire when one more in a long chain of rights is trodden on? People will bitch, grumble, and then go about their daily lives because it is too much work and they have too much to lose to do anything else.

The things given up, while sickening and wrong and important, are not immediately imperative to appearance...at least much of the time. It's things that are only shown to be important over time, which is why we've been so slow to react to the 60+ year war on citizens.

Now that people are seeing how far we've slid, you notice things are heating up. More and more anti-government groups. New political parties. Protests. Plummeting government confidence/support. And this is all from relatively non-impacting things.

Tell people to give up their guns and the war begins in 24 hours. Guaranteed. I'd bet the first death would occur in less than one hour.

Further, have you perhaps noticed that police agencies are becoming more militarized? How do you think it will play out when an armed insurrectionist group (yes, that is what the media will call you and how the police will classify you) starts a war? You'll last a couple months until your local metro PD buys some shiny new drones to safely dispose of dangerous cop killers.

It will play out the way insurgencies/revolutions always play out. Small unit engagements, ambushes, sniping, ieds, etc. The government won't deploy heavy (ie military armor, etc) because they know it would alienate the people, cause massive destruction (including infrastructure and financial), and turn world opinion against us. Not to mention the military may very well NOT support the government in such a situation. After all, they're required to support the Consitution as well as obey orders...in the event of contradiction each man will choose for himself. Having been in the military I can tell you this was often discussed, and the pro-government side never fared much better than 50/50.

We'll be lucky to have 1-10% active support, which is what successful revolutions require fortunately. So it will be our ~3,000,000-30,000,000 armed people with identities unknown hiding amongst the public, sniping targets of opportunity out of the ~1,000,000 law enforcement personnel. Each officer/agent killed is a loss of tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars and hundreds or thousands of man hours of training and experience. Each revolutionary they arrest is utterly meaningless and costs us nothing. I'd imagine all law enforcement would break down/strike/quit/exempt themselves from the conflict after 2-3 months.

Bottom lining it, no, there won't be a war of any note, no, you aren't going to frighten the government into backing down if and when they decide to come for your guns, but you might accomplish is convincing some expecting mother somewhere that she doesn't want her kid to grow up in a nation where someone could go on a killing spree over political differences and write her congressman to pass a law. Fear makes people go to whoever is offering them safety and right now, that is the anti-gun crowd. When you threaten people with guns, they get afraid of guns. When they are afraid of guns, they try to pass laws to ban them.

Not expecting to frighten them off the action. I told you, they've already totally decided. I'm just giving notice.

As I already told you, you're wrong. They were already going to try and ban them, without me or anyone else saying and doing this stuff. It's what they believe, and what they want, and nothing is going to influence that. Other than a few wishy-washy ones in the middle, it's going to go on ad infinitum without any additional stimulus.

In short, we totally disagree about the situation, and the solutions. No harm no foul in that. However neither of us has the right to force the other to their way. You can't force me not to draw a line, any more than I can force you to pick up a weapon.
 

Sulaco

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2003
3,825
46
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I found this video hysterical. In it FOX news shreds every thing in the constitution EXCEPT the right to keep and bear arms....

Basically they support torture, illegal search and seizure, religious oppression, removal of Miranda rights, the ninth amendment, etc.... Stewart got tape of the FOX commentators spouting this stuff. It is utterly remarkable. The only amendment they consistently supported was gun access. Um.... guys.... without any of those other rights, a country can't be free. Japan is freer in many ways than the USA but they don't have gun rights.
Please watch the video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWuzezm1vL0

Of course, then there's Brazil, with far stricter gun control laws than the US, and a gun crime rate nearly double.

So, yeah, there's that. Nice try though.