I have to agree with using biased sources from either side... I mean someone earlier listed a site of "contradictions" that were old testament vs. new testament... any good aetheist knows better 
Is the information in the links any less correct? I understand your point about bias, but if the information is factually correct, it doesn't matter where it came from because it will be the same either way.
Gunslinger08
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2001
- 13,234
- 2
- 81
:roll: how old are you RapidSnail? I am just wondering. I believe it is time to give it up and let this subject die. As a whole the universe follow the laws of Thermodynamics. Entropy will always eventually win out in the long run.
Evolution and Religion are not mutually exclusive and can be both true without one disproving the other. Both affect each other because they are different ideas about what is true, but neither have to be wrong. It is a person's perspective about evidence that could be wrong. Who knows Evolution may be debunked later on, but there is no doubt that it is science while religious beliefs like Creationism is not. Sure you can use science to back up belief (both are a search for what is true and in fact the early Catholic church sponsorsed many scientists), but religion is not science. Any warranting that religion is science is delusional in my opinion, or at least a protrayal of stubbornness (and hence immaturity). Evolution doesn't debunk the Genesis story at all, it just changes the perspective of the Genesis story, the Genesis story doesn't say how G-d created everything. The Genesis story rather just has to be taken on faith.
/thread
Cerpin Taxt
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 11,940
- 542
- 126
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001_1.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001_2.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001_3.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001_4.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001_5.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html
Your two links describe two well-known PRATTs (Points Refuted A Thousand Times). If you had spent a few minutes searching the internet with actual intent to find truth (as opposed to confirmation of your false beliefs), you would not offer such tired arguments.
That's right. By the logic contained in those articles, you could never even attempt to organize your desk or make a list.
Entropy increases universally, not locally. By the very same argument (ignoring relativity), electricity and magnetism don't really exist. The facts behind this argument are too complex to explain to the idiots that are taken in by that sort of false logic.
Better yet, I just thought of an even great example. If disorder always increased everywhere, then Noah would have been unable to obtain 2 of every animal and keep them on a boat, let alone build the ark
Exactly, as a catholic and a scientist I believe that god could have set forth the events that eventually led to the rise of man. There's nothing scientifically to say that god did not create the universe or our primordial ancestors
I don't understand what you are arguing about. Jews are not Christians because they don't believe in Jesus Christ. It's that simple.
Evolution and religion cannot coexist if the specific religion disagrees with or disqualifies evolution as an option. In this case, the Bible is what I believe in, and it tells me that evolution did not occur because "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Nobody knows for sure whether evolution or creation was the origin of our universe. Who was there at the beginning? It is impossible for there to be recorded evidence of either case, unless their was some sort of Divine intervention. The Biblical account of our origin claims that God created the universe and everything in it, while evolutionists/Darwinists claim that we evolved from primative forms into what we are today. Obviously, we cannot directly prove either one because, as I said earlier, noone was there in the beginning. What we can do is come to a conclusion using the tools we have available. Science is used as the basis for disproving either theory, and from what I've read, I've concluded that the Biblical account of creation is perfectly in line with science, while evolution is merely unscientific speculation. Disagree with me if you will, but we both have the right to believe what we want, and I respect that.
BTW, I don't want to make any enemies because of a strong ideological disagreement, and I hope you feel the same way
.Twisted from what the Bible teaches, or from what you *think* the Bible teaches? There is a big difference.
That's OK. We don't really care whether people label us as Christian or not. We're very happy with our belief in Christ.
Please don't turn this into a religious debate. The point of the thread is to see whether one is able to prove the Bible to have fallacies, not to bash other religions even if you believe they are wrong.
engineereeyore, this isn't directed towards you.
engineereeyore, this isn't directed towards you.
Gunslinger08
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2001
- 13,234
- 2
- 81
Okay. You need to reconsider why you created this thread. The topic itself is a religious debate. You are never going to accept anything as a fallacy, because it is impossible to disprove anything without knowing everything.
I'd assume you created this thread for the purpose of evangelism, hoping that some would be led to Christ by your compelling arguments. Your are off base here, and only hurting your cause.
I understand. Was not my intention either.
To answer your question though, there are many things that would appear to be contradictions due to misinterpretations, as well as the fact that we don't have the full account of everything that happened. For instance, the death of Judas. There would appear to be a contradiction there in the way that he died, but there is still an explanation.
Point is, people are going to see what they want to see. If they want to see contradictions, the Bible has plenty of them due to these problems. However, if they're willing to take a few minutes and actually examine things, they'll soon discover that what they initially thought to be a contradiction is in fact not one.
Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Evolution and religion cannot coexist if the specific religion disagrees with or disqualifies evolution as an option. In this case, the Bible is what I believe in, and it tells me that evolution did not occur because "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Nobody knows for sure whether evolution or creation was the origin of our universe. Who was there at the beginning? It is impossible for there to be recorded evidence of either case, unless their was some sort of Divine intervention. The Biblical account of our origin claims that God created the universe and everything in it, while evolutionists/Darwinists claim that we evolved from primative forms into what we are today. Obviously, we cannot directly prove either one because, as I said earlier, noone was there in the beginning. What we can do is come to a conclusion using the tools we have available. Science is used as the basis for disproving either theory, and from what I've read, I've concluded that the Biblical account of creation is perfectly in line with science, while evolution is merely unscientific speculation. Disagree with me if you will, but we both have the right to believe what we want, and I respect that.
BTW, I don't want to make any enemies because of a strong ideological disagreement, and I hope you feel the same way
G-d created the heaven and the earth. How did he create it? Surely by some logical design. Why can't that design be evolution? They are not mutually exclusive, no matter how much you choose to think of it that way. I could go into hermeneutics and talk about ways that the early universe right after the Big Bang reflect the Creationism story very closely. Since there was no human concept of day at that time (Physics on the universe was very different at that moment in time), the idea of "light" and seperation of light and dark follow the early universe closely. If you study geological eras, they follow (not as closely though) some of the "days" of Creationism. Also, the Creation story is written in a poetic fashion. It also doesn't explain how G-d created anything (except man and woman and that can ahve symbolic representation as well), it just says that he does. Read more philosophy, science, and religion and maybe we can discuss more.
Anyways, I am going to post about PIE from now on. I shouldn't have gotten sucked into this again. But I agree. I am not your enemy, nor do I want to be your enemy.
I understand that the Bible is a religious object, but I don't want the religion to become the object of debate. I want people to try to give proof that the Bible is anything less than perfect through contradictions, errors, etc. These contradictions, errors, etc., can be in the Bible, historical, or scientific, but don't have to be religious. That's all I'm asking.
I am not trying to evangelize anybody, because I know that absolutely noone will be converted by this thread no matter how true my arguements are. That's how people are, inherently unwilling to give up their beliefs, and there's nothing wrong with that at all.
Gunslinger08
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2001
- 13,234
- 2
- 81
Who's to even say that Adam and Eve weren't amoebas or fish or early primates? We are all so anthropocentric. God created man in his own image. We assume that we are this "man", but how do you know?
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Evolution and religion cannot coexist if the specific religion disagrees with or disqualifies evolution as an option. In this case, the Bible is what I believe in, and it tells me that evolution did not occur because "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Nobody knows for sure whether evolution or creation was the origin of our universe. Who was there at the beginning? It is impossible for there to be recorded evidence of either case, unless their was some sort of Divine intervention. The Biblical account of our origin claims that God created the universe and everything in it, while evolutionists/Darwinists claim that we evolved from primative forms into what we are today. Obviously, we cannot directly prove either one because, as I said earlier, noone was there in the beginning. What we can do is come to a conclusion using the tools we have available. Science is used as the basis for disproving either theory, and from what I've read, I've concluded that the Biblical account of creation is perfectly in line with science, while evolution is merely unscientific speculation. Disagree with me if you will, but we both have the right to believe what we want, and I respect that.
BTW, I don't want to make any enemies because of a strong ideological disagreement, and I hope you feel the same way
G-d created the heaven and the earth. How did he create it? Surely by some logical design. Why can't that design be evolution? They are not mutually exclusive, no matter how much you choose to think of it that way. I could go into hermeneutics and talk about ways that the early universe right after the Big Bang reflect the Creationism story very closely. Since there was no human concept of day at that time (Physics on the universe was very different at that moment in time), the idea of "light" and seperation of light and dark follow the early universe closely. If you study geological eras, they follow (not as closely though) some of the "days" of Creationism. Also, the Creation story is written in a poetic fashion. It also doesn't explain how G-d created anything (except man and woman and that can ahve symbolic representation as well), it just says that he does. Read more philosophy, science, and religion and maybe we can discuss more.
Anyways, I am going to post about PIE from now on. I shouldn't have gotten sucked into this again. But I agree. I am not your enemy, nor do I want to be your enemy.
i'm just gonna address your first line because I don't have that much time before I have to go to work.
If you believe that "God" created the heavens and earth according to the bible than you cannot use evolution. When the bible was being written, they were using the gregorian calender. Logically, the relative term of "day" would denote a finite timespan (whatever they used back then...may still be our 24hr scale now) and not an argument for "well a day could have meant millions of years." It is therefore impossible to say that humans could have evolved and it still be in compliance with the bible.
Also, in the very next chapter, it details how "God" created Eve. Now, a person being crafted from a rib certainly doesn't fall in line with the scientific explanation of millions of years of evolution.
You therefore cannot argue that the bible and evolution are mutually exclusive. If you believe that humans evolved from whatever you cannot say that the creation story of "God" creating woman from the rib of adam as being valid. In this case, they don't fit.
Because God gave us the Bible. Can amoebas, fish, or early primates read? Also, Jesus Christ was a man and the Son of God.
Gunslinger08
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2001
- 13,234
- 2
- 81
well it says in the bible that adam was a man and eve was a woman. you can't bash the POV just to try to disprove it because there is no outside evidence just one single data source. for the purposes of this argument, and the religions as a whole, adam was a man and eve was a woman. end of that discussion.
No it didn't. You asked me how we can know that the image of God is that of our concept of man, and I told you that God gave the Bible to mankind and not to amoebas, fish, or early primates. I also pointed out the fact that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. Christ died for us, he didn't die for other life forms.
Edit - Christ was the Son of God in the flesh. In other words, he was a man (our "concept" of a man that is).
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