Can we please just get some confirmation of WMD?

[LunarRay]

A month ago: Oh God, Please oh please don't let Saddam have nuclear weapons, God. Pleas oh please spare us from nuclear distruction.

Today: Please oh please God, please God let Saddam have nulcear weapons.[/quote]


The importance of context.[/quote]

Indeed......[/quote]

Indeed what?, who expressed those ridiculous sentiments that moonie is spewing?

It was known that Iraq had weapons programs. All that is needed now is to be able to find those programs. After twelve years of being taught how to hide them by the UN inspectors it won't be that easy but they will be found.[/quote]

Ah... the 143rd rule of justification. "When stating as fact that which is supposed, deflect and reject, more importantly though, restate as fact the likelyhood of the act"
Diplospeak personified. We bury our waste nuke material and keep our chem in rusted drums and our Bio in the greyhound bus locker off the first street on the right in washington dc. What is wrong with them burying it in the barren desert?

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: ConclamoLudus
Its going to be a while. Franks said its going to take up to a year to search 2,000-3,000 different sites where WMD's may have been worked on or stored. They are trying to get 20 done a day.

Link

If they would spend their time looking for the weapons and less time searching for where they use to be I think they'd make better use of time... I want the weapons destroyed where ever they reside... in Iraq.

 

[Moonbeam]

I don't know why they are so hard to find. We should have the shipping address right on our receipts.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't know why they are so hard to find. We should have the shipping address right on our receipts.

Got any hard evidence to back up that statement Moonie?

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't know why they are so hard to find. We should have the shipping address right on our receipts.

Got any hard evidence to back up that statement Moonie?

Yup! I'll verify the existance of addresses and receipts.

It is hard to tell one oasis from another... they all look the same to me.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't know why they are so hard to find. We should have the shipping address right on our receipts.

Got any hard evidence to back up that statement Moonie?

Yup! I'll verify the existance of addresses and receipts.

It is hard to tell one oasis from another... they all look the same to me.

Well, I'm being serious. Find me some proof that the U.S. sold WMD to Iraq. I'm not talking rumors and hearsay either, find me some reputable, hard evidence that Iraq recieved WMD from the U.S. and I'll concede the point to you.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't know why they are so hard to find. We should have the shipping address right on our receipts.

Got any hard evidence to back up that statement Moonie?

Yup! I'll verify the existance of addresses and receipts.

It is hard to tell one oasis from another... they all look the same to me.

Well, I'm being serious. Find me some proof that the U.S. sold WMD to Iraq. I'm not talking rumors and hearsay either, find me some reputable, hard evidence that Iraq recieved WMD from the U.S. and I'll concede the point to you.

No need to concede the point. But, the proof lies in two ways. The '91 gulf war uncovered chemical weapons that bore US markings.. the ones we didn't blow up and poison the folks there about. I'd have to research the footage. I have distinct recall on that issue and folks at the VA hospital with photos of the bunkers and contents... think back and I'm sure you too will remember. The second is during hearings on cspan about the gulf war illness issues and sworn testimony of soldiers who testify they saw the shells and had specific knowledge on the subject so to testify that they were in fact US made weapons. If you want to count it, the non denial denials of the administration when the press confronted them various times would be another. Since I did not personally ship them there I can only, but, with a high degree of confidence, say we did.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't know why they are so hard to find. We should have the shipping address right on our receipts.

Got any hard evidence to back up that statement Moonie?

Yup! I'll verify the existance of addresses and receipts.

It is hard to tell one oasis from another... they all look the same to me.

Well, I'm being serious. Find me some proof that the U.S. sold WMD to Iraq. I'm not talking rumors and hearsay either, find me some reputable, hard evidence that Iraq recieved WMD from the U.S. and I'll concede the point to you.

No need to concede the point. But, the proof lies in two ways. The '91 gulf war uncovered chemical weapons that bore US markings.. the ones we didn't blow up and poison the folks there about. I'd have to research the footage. I have distinct recall on that issue and folks at the VA hospital with photos of the bunkers and contents... think back and I'm sure you too will remember. The second is during hearings on cspan about the gulf war illness issues and sworn testimony of soldiers who testify they saw the shells and had specific knowledge on the subject so to testify that they were in fact US made weapons. If you want to count it, the non denial denials of the administration when the press confronted them various times would be another. Since I did not personally ship them there I can only, but, with a high degree of confidence, say we did.

During Desert Storm/Shield I was 17 and more interested in getting laid and passing HS so, no, I have no recollection of what WMD with US markings you are talking about. If you don't want to research it, that's fine, just don't expect me to believe your claims.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
No more of this garbage reporting that Troops, may have, might have, have a hunch that there is, heard from Saddams boyguards friends brothers uncles cousins dogs handler that there are chemical or biological weapons.

Then all that bullshit turns out to be nothing... well, nothing that is except news agencies trying to boost their ratings. Dammit frickin report on it when its confirmed.

/end rant

Didn't you hear? Iraq gave them to Syria.

 

[CaptnKirk]

If you get rid of the Tabloid reporting by Fox, one of the more credible news sources is The BBC

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't know why they are so hard to find. We should have the shipping address right on our receipts.

Got any hard evidence to back up that statement Moonie?

Yup! I'll verify the existance of addresses and receipts.

It is hard to tell one oasis from another... they all look the same to me.

Well, I'm being serious. Find me some proof that the U.S. sold WMD to Iraq. I'm not talking rumors and hearsay either, find me some reputable, hard evidence that Iraq recieved WMD from the U.S. and I'll concede the point to you.

No need to concede the point. But, the proof lies in two ways. The '91 gulf war uncovered chemical weapons that bore US markings.. the ones we didn't blow up and poison the folks there about. I'd have to research the footage. I have distinct recall on that issue and folks at the VA hospital with photos of the bunkers and contents... think back and I'm sure you too will remember. The second is during hearings on cspan about the gulf war illness issues and sworn testimony of soldiers who testify they saw the shells and had specific knowledge on the subject so to testify that they were in fact US made weapons. If you want to count it, the non denial denials of the administration when the press confronted them various times would be another. Since I did not personally ship them there I can only, but, with a high degree of confidence, say we did.

The PROOF lies in public documents in the UN. Saddam submitted a 12,000 page report detailing his WMD programs and his suppliers, 21 total. 2 from the US, 19 from EU 14 in Germany, France the largest in quantity). I would think Saddam would know better than you...

The same countries also supplied Syria and other ME countries, they also included Finland, Switzerland, Russia....

 

[LunarRay]

Quote by Feldenak

During Desert Storm/Shield I was 17 and more interested in getting laid and passing HS so, no, I have no recollection of what WMD with US markings you are talking about. If you don't want to research it, that's fine, just don't expect me to believe your claims.[/quote]

In '91 I was only 45 and more interested in getting the yard mowed and I agree you should not believe what the government has not admitted... Assuming they did it... Finding the c-span hearings will be a chore I think but I'll see if I can find what I'm talking about. IF it was not a dream...

 

[LunarRay]

Quote by Alistar7

The PROOF lies in public documents in the UN. Saddam submitted a 12,000 page report detailing his WMD programs and his suppliers, 21 total. 2 from the US, 19 from EU 14 in Germany, France the largest in quantity). I would think Saddam would know better than you...

The same countries also supplied Syria and other ME countries, they also included Finland, Switzerland, Russia....[/quote]

Getting old sure has its drawbacks... I completely forgot this and it was posted elsewhere earlier as well. I wonder what I'll forget next. Hmmm I forgot.

 

[Moonbeam]

Here is twice the proof anybody could want.

 

[Moonbeam]

This boxing site is completely objective.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
This boxing site is completely objective.

Both of the links you provided are "at the end of the day" what no right minded American wishes to read. It forces the view that notwithstanding the underlying reality, action taken or contemplated by agendized individuals is self justified. That a condition today stands alone, with no regard for the dynamics that helped achieve its realization, renders pellucid the perpetrators thereof.
One may offer persiflage comments to the serious breach of trust the links above allege but, I suggest the genuflection occur after the allegations are considered demurrerable. The transfer of munitions to Iraq and et. al. by the US and others seems to have occured.

 

[seawolf21]

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't know why they are so hard to find. We should have the shipping address right on our receipts.

Got any hard evidence to back up that statement Moonie?

Yup! I'll verify the existance of addresses and receipts.

It is hard to tell one oasis from another... they all look the same to me.

Well, I'm being serious. Find me some proof that the U.S. sold WMD to Iraq. I'm not talking rumors and hearsay either, find me some reputable, hard evidence that Iraq recieved WMD from the U.S. and I'll concede the point to you.

No need to concede the point. But, the proof lies in two ways. The '91 gulf war uncovered chemical weapons that bore US markings.. the ones we didn't blow up and poison the folks there about. I'd have to research the footage. I have distinct recall on that issue and folks at the VA hospital with photos of the bunkers and contents... think back and I'm sure you too will remember. The second is during hearings on cspan about the gulf war illness issues and sworn testimony of soldiers who testify they saw the shells and had specific knowledge on the subject so to testify that they were in fact US made weapons. If you want to count it, the non denial denials of the administration when the press confronted them various times would be another. Since I did not personally ship them there I can only, but, with a high degree of confidence, say we did.

The PROOF lies in public documents in the UN. Saddam submitted a 12,000 page report detailing his WMD programs and his suppliers, 21 total. 2 from the US, 19 from EU 14 in Germany, France the largest in quantity). I would think Saddam would know better than you...

The same countries also supplied Syria and other ME countries, they also included Finland, Switzerland, Russia....

The "proof" your quoted doesn't add anything new. Read Resolution 1441. It acknowledges Iraq IS IN VIOLATION and that the UN (including the US) will give Iraqi one final chance. But before Iraq can take advantage ("advantage" being open to your interpretation ) of this final chance, we said "Sorry, we change our minds...no final chance for you" and invaded.

 

[oLLie]

Originally posted by: seawolf21

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't know why they are so hard to find. We should have the shipping address right on our receipts.

Got any hard evidence to back up that statement Moonie?

Yup! I'll verify the existance of addresses and receipts.

It is hard to tell one oasis from another... they all look the same to me.

Well, I'm being serious. Find me some proof that the U.S. sold WMD to Iraq. I'm not talking rumors and hearsay either, find me some reputable, hard evidence that Iraq recieved WMD from the U.S. and I'll concede the point to you.

No need to concede the point. But, the proof lies in two ways. The '91 gulf war uncovered chemical weapons that bore US markings.. the ones we didn't blow up and poison the folks there about. I'd have to research the footage. I have distinct recall on that issue and folks at the VA hospital with photos of the bunkers and contents... think back and I'm sure you too will remember. The second is during hearings on cspan about the gulf war illness issues and sworn testimony of soldiers who testify they saw the shells and had specific knowledge on the subject so to testify that they were in fact US made weapons. If you want to count it, the non denial denials of the administration when the press confronted them various times would be another. Since I did not personally ship them there I can only, but, with a high degree of confidence, say we did.

The PROOF lies in public documents in the UN. Saddam submitted a 12,000 page report detailing his WMD programs and his suppliers, 21 total. 2 from the US, 19 from EU 14 in Germany, France the largest in quantity). I would think Saddam would know better than you...

The same countries also supplied Syria and other ME countries, they also included Finland, Switzerland, Russia....

The "proof" your quoted doesn't add anything new. Read Resolution 1441. It acknowledges Iraq IS IN VIOLATION and that the UN (including the US) will give Iraqi one final chance. But before Iraq can take advantage ("advantage" being open to your interpretation ) of this final chance, we said "Sorry, we change our minds...no final chance for you" and invaded.

What do you think the hold up was with his cooperation? Don't you think that if he showed some real cooperation/progress we would have let the inspections go on? The fact is, he just led inspectors on by slowly destroying a few al-samoud missles and all of a sudden people are screaming that he is complying.

 

[LunarRay]

Quote

The PROOF lies in public documents in the UN. Saddam submitted a 12,000 page report detailing his WMD programs and his suppliers, 21 total. 2 from the US, 19 from EU 14 in Germany, France the largest in quantity). I would think Saddam would know better than you...

The same countries also supplied Syria and other ME countries, they also included Finland, Switzerland, Russia....[/quote]

The "proof" your quoted doesn't add anything new. Read Resolution 1441. It acknowledges Iraq IS IN VIOLATION and that the UN (including the US) will give Iraqi one final chance. But before Iraq can take advantage ("advantage" being open to your interpretation ) of this final chance, we said "Sorry, we change our minds...no final chance for you" and invaded.[/quote]

The most immediate para above seems not related to the para's preceeding it...
The proof refer's to the notion that Iraq's WMD were supplied by, in part, the US who now justify invasion by the very items it provided.
Sorta like giving your child a candy then grounding him because he is eating candy..

 

[seawolf21]

Originally posted by: oLLie

Originally posted by: seawolf21

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I don't know why they are so hard to find. We should have the shipping address right on our receipts.

Got any hard evidence to back up that statement Moonie?

Yup! I'll verify the existance of addresses and receipts.

It is hard to tell one oasis from another... they all look the same to me.

Well, I'm being serious. Find me some proof that the U.S. sold WMD to Iraq. I'm not talking rumors and hearsay either, find me some reputable, hard evidence that Iraq recieved WMD from the U.S. and I'll concede the point to you.

No need to concede the point. But, the proof lies in two ways. The '91 gulf war uncovered chemical weapons that bore US markings.. the ones we didn't blow up and poison the folks there about. I'd have to research the footage. I have distinct recall on that issue and folks at the VA hospital with photos of the bunkers and contents... think back and I'm sure you too will remember. The second is during hearings on cspan about the gulf war illness issues and sworn testimony of soldiers who testify they saw the shells and had specific knowledge on the subject so to testify that they were in fact US made weapons. If you want to count it, the non denial denials of the administration when the press confronted them various times would be another. Since I did not personally ship them there I can only, but, with a high degree of confidence, say we did.

The PROOF lies in public documents in the UN. Saddam submitted a 12,000 page report detailing his WMD programs and his suppliers, 21 total. 2 from the US, 19 from EU 14 in Germany, France the largest in quantity). I would think Saddam would know better than you...

The same countries also supplied Syria and other ME countries, they also included Finland, Switzerland, Russia....

The "proof" your quoted doesn't add anything new. Read Resolution 1441. It acknowledges Iraq IS IN VIOLATION and that the UN (including the US) will give Iraqi one final chance. But before Iraq can take advantage ("advantage" being open to your interpretation ) of this final chance, we said "Sorry, we change our minds...no final chance for you" and invaded.

What do you think the hold up was with his cooperation? Don't you think that if he showed some real cooperation/progress we would have let the inspections go on? The fact is, he just led inspectors on by slowly destroying a few al-samoud missles and all of a sudden people are screaming that he is complying.

If the Administration had let 1441 fulfill itself, we would have got more votes in a second resolution. The diplomatic cost will be lower. More moderates both in the US and abroad will support the war. Instead, the impression that came out of disregarding 1441, a UN resolution which we agreed to, is that the Administration was never serious about a diplomatic solution. The Administration was only using the UN to give the mirage that it desired peace while it was building up troops in the region.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: HJD1
Quote

The PROOF lies in public documents in the UN. Saddam submitted a 12,000 page report detailing his WMD programs and his suppliers, 21 total. 2 from the US, 19 from EU 14 in Germany, France the largest in quantity). I would think Saddam would know better than you...

The same countries also supplied Syria and other ME countries, they also included Finland, Switzerland, Russia....

The "proof" your quoted doesn't add anything new. Read Resolution 1441. It acknowledges Iraq IS IN VIOLATION and that the UN (including the US) will give Iraqi one final chance. But before Iraq can take advantage ("advantage" being open to your interpretation ) of this final chance, we said "Sorry, we change our minds...no final chance for you" and invaded.[/quote]

The most immediate para above seems not related to the para's preceeding it...
The proof refer's to the notion that Iraq's WMD were supplied by, in part, the US who now justify invasion by the very items it provided.
Sorta like giving your child a candy then grounding him because he is eating candy..[/quote]

There are dual use items which can be part of a WMD program but are not WMD's in themselves. Chlorine is a good example of that. It is used to purify drinking water and water in swiming pools. It is also a component of a chemical weapon. The problem is the peope that would use it for weapons and not for clean water for their people.

I have found no evidence that the US sold 'chemical weapons' to Iraq.

 

[LunarRay]

Quote by Etech

There are dual use items which can be part of a WMD program but are not WMD's in themselves. Chlorine is a good example of that. It is used to purify drinking water and water in swiming pools. It is also a component of a chemical weapon. The problem is the peope that would use it for weapons and not for clean water for their people.

I have found no evidence that the US sold 'chemical weapons' to Iraq.[/quote]

What I refer to is more one sided (in my reference to the Senate and House hearings on the Gulf War Illness) Therein Military personnel testified they saw munitions with US markings (appropriate bands and such indicating chemical weapon) and US coding.. numbers or some other reference. They saw this in the areas where some bunkers were bombed and chemicals filled the air. The testimony was taken under oath and was persuasive.
The Arms for whatever that Ollie was part off, where he destroyed all the documents, supports, in part at least, that something extra legal was afoot back in the pre Bush the Elder days.
Again, I'm not a "dove" or a "hawk" and if I'm kicked I'm likely to kick back as hard as I can... but, I'd never kick first or kick someone who could not properly defend themselves and if I did I'd not be too proud or gloat over the victory... no matter the provacation or justness of my actions. It just don't sit well with me. I know the argument about the poor Iraqi people under the cruelty of Saddam. But, in a world of laws even human rights violations must be subordinated to the law... IMHO 1441 and before do not authorize the invasion... it is not explicit... one can infer perhaps but that would be the first time the UN required inference on the part of its members to act. The treaty the US signed as part of the UN is the US law too. Ratified by the Senate my research indicates.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: HJD1
Quote by Etech

There are dual use items which can be part of a WMD program but are not WMD's in themselves. Chlorine is a good example of that. It is used to purify drinking water and water in swiming pools. It is also a component of a chemical weapon. The problem is the peope that would use it for weapons and not for clean water for their people.

I have found no evidence that the US sold 'chemical weapons' to Iraq.

What I refer to is more one sided (in my reference to the Senate and House hearings on the Gulf War Illness) Therein Military personnel testified they saw munitions with US markings (appropriate bands and such indicating chemical weapon) and US coding.. numbers or some other reference. They saw this in the areas where some bunkers were bombed and chemicals filled the air. The testimony was taken under oath and was persuasive.
The Arms for whatever that Ollie was part off, where he destroyed all the documents, supports, in part at least, that something extra legal was afoot back in the pre Bush the Elder days.
Again, I'm not a "dove" or a "hawk" and if I'm kicked I'm likely to kick back as hard as I can... but, I'd never kick first or kick someone who could not properly defend themselves and if I did I'd not be too proud or gloat over the victory... no matter the provacation or justness of my actions. It just don't sit well with me. I know the argument about the poor Iraqi people under the cruelty of Saddam. But, in a world of laws even human rights violations must be subordinated to the law... IMHO 1441 and before do not authorize the invasion... it is not explicit... one can infer perhaps but that would be the first time the UN required inference on the part of its members to act. The treaty the US signed as part of the UN is the US law too. Ratified by the Senate my research indicates.[/quote]

"Therein Military personnel testified they saw munitions with US markings (appropriate bands and such indicating chemical weapon) and US coding.. numbers or some other reference"

Do you have a link to those references?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
This boxing site is completely objective.

Both of the links you provided are "at the end of the day" what no right minded American wishes to read. It forces the view that notwithstanding the underlying reality, action taken or contemplated by agendized individuals is self justified. That a condition today stands alone, with no regard for the dynamics that helped achieve its realization, renders pellucid the perpetrators thereof.
One may offer persiflage comments to the serious breach of trust the links above allege but, I suggest the genuflection occur after the allegations are considered demurrerable. The transfer of munitions to Iraq and et. al. by the US and others seems to have occured.

Dasm! Where's my dictionary?

 

[LunarRay]

Quote

"Therein Military personnel testified they saw munitions with US markings (appropriate bands and such indicating chemical weapon) and US coding.. numbers or some other reference"

Do you have a link to those references?[/quote]

I'm a trying to see if I can find the hearings that I speak off .. If I knew how to navigate in the etherworld I'd have gotten them first but, alas... I will try to find them for another purpose as well..