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Can someone smart or good with physics answer this dumb Q I came up with?

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darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
Would the magic stick be subject to the universe's expansion if it 'only' extended to another point in our galaxy? Or only if it was crossing the space between galaxies?

Or rather, would the distance the stick 'covers' be subject to it I guess.
 
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Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
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My dumb way to think of a material that doesn't compress or expand.

So in any given time, the stick is shorter than its actual length when you apply a force.

Yes, look at some high-speed camera videos of golf balls being hit, bullets hitting steel etc.

You'd be surprised how much things deform, you just can't see it because it's happening too fast.
 
May 13, 2009
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In few thousand years? Why not. Are you predicting what we're capable and not capable of in few thousand years? You must be the genius of mankind's history.

So you believe we'll be touching distant stars with sticks that weigh more than stars themselves or could possibly weigh more than anything in existence in the known universe in a few thousand years?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,864
31,359
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I wouldn't say impossible...

Let's say we're advanced enough in few thousands years. And we simply build a stick that's 2.5 LY long. And then simply move it 5 inches forward. It is fully testable.

well, good luck getting Congress to ever approve the budget for your 15 trillion mile stick.

I'd say the laws of physics are more malleable than the irascible meatheads we vote for.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
12,035
1,134
126

There is a property for material that will determine how fast the stress wave will travel through it. Not sure if it is proportional to the sound speed in the material since both depend on young's modulus and density. This effect can seen in high acceleration, such as bullets. The base is where the pressure is applied and then the inertia of the rest of the bullet must be overcome to get the bullet moving. At this point the bullet compresses. Something similar would happen to your stick, not due to high acceleration but high inertia.

Compression_and_shear_waves

Reading the wiki Compression wave seems to be the same as the sound speed for solids. Like stated there, earthquakes are a good example of how the displacement occurs.
 
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Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,851
6
81
To sum up:
* Mystical object which doesn't compress and has no mass - "stick" is moved 5 inches instantaneously.
* Standard stick - one end starts on fire, on the other end you're not manly enough to move trillions of miles of stick, even if you were, you'd start a slow moving compression wave (like an earthquake) in the stick that would take a long time to reach the other end.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
12,035
1,134
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Hey OP, I have a better question for you. I actually struggled with this one for a while and I think I even created a thread here about it. You can answer it with some internet research.

Every day, the tides come in, and they go out. As they go in and out, they produce friction between water and the surfaces the water is flowing against. In some cases, the tides are captured to produce electricity.

BUT

We know that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only conserved or transformed from mass or to mass. So... where does all this tidal energy come from?

The answer might surprise you. It surprised me!

From the gravitational effect between the earth and the moon. Don't you learn this in 9th grade science? Tides are caused by the moon. Though I guess they don't go into the energy balance of the system.
 
May 13, 2009
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From the gravitational effect between the earth and the moon. Don't you learn this in 9th grade science? Tides are caused by the moon. Though I guess they don't go into the energy balance of the system.

Does the energy start at the sun. Yes I know the moon is pulling the ocean but does the chain of energy start at the sun?
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,395
1,189
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Hey OP, I have a better question for you. I actually struggled with this one for a while and I think I even created a thread here about it. You can answer it with some internet research.

Every day, the tides come in, and they go out. As they go in and out, they produce friction between water and the surfaces the water is flowing against. In some cases, the tides are captured to produce electricity.

BUT

We know that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only conserved or transformed from mass or to mass. So... where does all this tidal energy come from?

The answer might surprise you. It surprised me!

Tides are caused by the moon's orbit.

But that makes me question how do planets orbit forever without ever losing velocity? I know orbit is caused by the planet's original direction vs the host's gravitational pull, turning it into a circular action.

But it just goes on forever? Without resistance, you move forever in space, but if the moon is responsible for the tide, won't that force eventually drain out the moon's orbit after craptons of years?
 
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Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
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From the gravitational effect between the earth and the moon. Don't you learn this in 9th grade science? Tides are caused by the moon. Though I guess they don't go into the energy balance of the system.

Which is exactly what I was referring to. Yes, I know (and knew) the moon causes the tides.
 

edro

Lifer
Apr 5, 2002
24,326
68
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Aren't we forgetting time?
It takes time for the movement energy to reach the end of the stick.

A stick is just a dense collection of atoms. Space soup is also a collection of atoms, just not densely packed like a stick.

Light (or ANY energy or mass) must travel through this same soup.

It takes time for that to propagate.

The end of the stick would not move instantaneously... it would move near the speed of light. (depending on propagation speeds of the stick material)
 
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edro

Lifer
Apr 5, 2002
24,326
68
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The moon is slowly moving away from Earth. If it were slightly closer, it would be pulled into Earth.

The Moon continues to spin away from the Earth, at the rate of 3.78cm (1.48in) per year, at about the same speed at which our fingernails grow.

Eww. I would have 1.5" fingernails by year's end!
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
2
81
I was a physics major in college. We will make all the common magical assumptions about this scenario: the stick is strong enough, no gravity, no buckling, no orbiting, you are strong enough, etc.

It would take 2.5 years at the very least for the stick to reach the star. It is impossible for it to take only the amount of time it takes to move your hand because of the limits on the speed of light. When we move shorter, normal sticks around, we assume the tips of the stick move at the same time as the part of the stick we hold. However, this is not true. In fact, all solids are made of atoms that are linked to each other through electromagnetic forces. The bonds between atoms are made by the electrons and their fields and they are elastic. We just usually don't notice the elasticity usually because we can't handle individual electrons by hand and once we have large quantity of electrons, humans are too weak to notice them easily. However, with things like a thing, long piece of wire (like in a compound bow), you can directly observe and feel it.

When you move a stick around, you are actually doing something akin to pulling a massive array of linked chains around. It does take a small amount of time for the electromagnetic force from the first atom to propagate all the way to the far end of the chain but you don't notice because it's really a short amount of time.

When you push your super magic 2.5ly stick, pretending you are strong enough, it would just buckle near you and that would be the end of the story. The far end of the stick would never move.

However, let's pretend it doesn't buckle because that's more fun.

Even though the stick is fairly light per linear foot, because of it's immense length, you would have to be super strong to push it 5 inches withing a few seconds. Your massive strength would pulverize the stick near you immediately.

But's let's pretend that doesn't happen because the stick is indestructible.

The stick will compress an large amount near you. Withing the first few miles (pure guess) of the stick, there will be a lot of compression. Within the first few feet, you just created an incredible shock wave. What happened is you just created a seismic within the stick. This would eventually spread out into a super low frequency sound wave. Assuming your stick is steel and you took 3 seconds to make your 5" move, because steel has a speed of sound of 20000ft/sec, you would create a single compression wave of around 11 miles long.

This wave would lose energy as it traveled the immense distance so it would never reach the star. However, let's pretend that never happens. The wave would move at the speed of sound and take about 2.95 million years to get to the star.

Now if the stick were perfectly rigid, it would get there immediately. However, since there is a limit on the speed of light, you can deduce that it is impossible for anything to be truly rigid in this universe.

Some people are saying that it would be possible to touch the star because nothing is moving anywhere near the speed of light in this scenario. They are wrong. The only reason an atom in a stick will move is because the atom before it moved first. But the atoms are linked by electromagnetic fields. Atoms connected move by having one atom move, that pushes the electromagnetic field closer to the other atom, and that other atom moves. When you first move a stick, at the very first instant of time, the fist atom moves but every atom beyond the speed of light sphere of that first atom hasn't felt the movement from that first atom yet. The atoms a little ways away from the first atom have no way of knowing that anything has even happened yet.
 
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Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
The moon is slowly moving away from Earth. If it were slightly closer, it would be pulled into Earth.

That's true, but it implies that energy is being added to its orbit, not taken away.

So now we have tides that are absorbing energy, and a moon that is absorbing energy.

Where's it coming from?

:biggrin:
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
35
91
it would move at the speed of light. (same as electricity through a wire)

No, it wouldn't. The stick isn't infinitely rigid, it will compress and this compression will slowly (compared to light) propagate through the stick.
 

edro

Lifer
Apr 5, 2002
24,326
68
91
No, it wouldn't. The stick isn't infinitely rigid, it will compress and this compression will slowly (compared to light) propagate through the stick.
I thought we said it was perfectly rigid...
 
May 13, 2009
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What do you mean by chain of energy?

Looks like the planet spins due to being born spinning due to how it's formed. With nothing to slow it down in the vacuum it keeps spinning. Yes the moons gravity pulls the oceans but the rotating earth is where it all starts. That's what I meant.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,100
10,567
126
If it's perfectly rigid, then yeah, I guess it would. But that's unpossible, so the question really isn't cromulent.

So we're ok with a 2.5ly stick, and the strength to hold it, but a stick with perfect dimensional stability is crossing the line? :^D
 

phucheneh

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2012
7,306
5
0
This is a lot like the 'plane on a conveyer belt' 'problem'. Giant, huge, massive air quotes on 'problem.'

There will always be someone who says BUT THE FRICTION OF THE WHEEL BEARINGS AND THIS AND THAT AND BLAH BLAH GRASP AT STRAWS.

To which the reply is: You knew what the question implied, quit trying to overcomplicate it to make yourself feel smarter. The plane motherfucking takes off.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
167
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
I thought a bit & came back. Assuming the perfectly rigid stick, etc., why would he have to push the stick? The gravitational force of attraction at the star's end is certainly greater than the gravitational force of attraction at the Earth end.