Can real civil discourse and good governance exist in our current 2-party paradigm?

[cwjerome]

Please cite specific examples of #bothsides being the problem.

Both sides:
Beholden to special interests
Lack of independent thinking
Creating rigged and corrupt policies and election laws that favor them and stifle choice and competition
Lack of honesty and integrity
Permanent campaign
Blank check spending
Intrusive/oppressive laws
Short term focus
Oblivious to negative externalities and unintended consequences
... more, and more, and more

They do all of these things at the expense of the people and good government

 

[cwjerome]

No, it's over. Probably looking at balkinization in our lifetime. And that's a best case scenario.

Maybe. Every few years I get a hair and start ranting about how we can try and fix things but -just like right here- people are happy with blinders.

 

[nakedfrog]

Both sides:
Beholden to special interests
Lack of independent thinking
Creating rigged and corrupt policies and election laws that favor them and stifle choice and competition
Lack of honesty and integrity
Permanent campaign
Blank check spending
Intrusive/oppressive laws
Short term focus
Oblivious to negative externalities and unintended consequences
... more, and more, and more

They do all of these things at the expense of the people and good government

FYI, those are generalities, not specifics.

 

[nickqt]

FYI, those are generalities, not specifics.

It's pretty easy.

List the top 10 problems that this country faces. If it's hilariously inane bullshit like CRT, Covid Vaccines, Social Media "censorship", etc, then you're a Republican pretending to be an Independent and can be safely ignored.

If it's real, actual problems like climate change, healthcare, renewable energy, etc., then list 5 fucking Republicans who have any serious ideas to actually address any of those problems, besides just saying "tax cuts" and "deregulation". Hint: they don't fucking exist.

And if the Democrats solutions are "too extreme", because the problems aren't that bad, well guess what, that's the whole god damn point of US Government being tied in knots and unable to "do things", because hey, fuck it, the problems aren't that bad, it's better that nothing gets done.

In other words, The FUCKING DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS THE BIG TENT PARTY ALREADY. You have Manchin and Sinema and Ocasio-Cortez. That's the full fucking gamut of "identifies problems and puts forward solutions" right there. The Republican Party only gives a fuck about tax cuts for the rich and scaring their base into believing wildly hilarious delusions that their propaganda networks push out over TV, Radio, and Internet. i.e. COVID vaccines are for a hoax disease that is also a Chinese Superweapon or whatever nonsense they can believe and disbelieve at will because that's how they've been trained to believe for going on 40 years now.

RadicalIndependent™ is here to push one agenda: BothSidesDoIt™. The BigLie that allows the Republican Party to continue skullfucking this country to death for a few oligarchs' couch cushion change.

 

[kage69]

Current? No.

Paradigm where one side isn't controlled by a damn cult? Yes.

Through mortality or education, we'll get back there I think.

 

[weblooker2021]

As it stands right now no. I hate to say this but i think we are the point that we can't even agree on what color is the sky.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Nah. People - especially as evidenced on this forum are FAR too tribal like pre-evolution monkeys.

Hurr hurrrr me guys gud. Those guys bad. Me no free think. Me think what tribe think.

Just look at this forum: any criticism of anything from the left ALWAYS 100% of the time ALWAYS results in a whataboutism to Trump. As if criticizing a left lawmaker is insinuating the other side is angels.

 

[brycejones]

Both sides:
Beholden to special interests
Lack of independent thinking
Creating rigged and corrupt policies and election laws that favor them and stifle choice and competition
Lack of honesty and integrity
Permanent campaign
Blank check spending
Intrusive/oppressive laws
Short term focus
Oblivious to negative externalities and unintended consequences
... more, and more, and more

They do all of these things at the expense of the people and good government

Those are generalities. You have not cited a single specific example.

 

[brandonbull]

It would take a lot to convince me the current GOP is capable of doing anything other than continue their march towards fascism, and consolidating power to that end.

Says the supporters of the party that only cares about partisan politics and rule.

 

[Jhhnn]

When the GOP's supposedly Law & Order President attempts a coup & they still support him, that's fucked up in the extreme. It's cult of personality bullshit.

 

[cwjerome]

Nah. People - especially as evidenced on this forum are FAR too tribal like pre-evolution monkeys.

Hurr hurrrr me guys gud. Those guys bad. Me no free think. Me think what tribe think.

Just look at this forum: any criticism of anything from the left ALWAYS 100% of the time ALWAYS results in a whataboutism to Trump. As if criticizing a left lawmaker is insinuating the other side is angels.

Hahah, yep. When a moderate independent gets lashed, you know the thought-police are kicking their boots high! Toe the line! This is the thoughtful, reasonable left? Yeah... hard pass. And they wonder why people get turned off by this stuff? I think this thread is making my point fairly well...

 

[cwjerome]

FYI, those are generalities, not specifics.

But isn't that even better? Kinda hits home, huh?

The generalities are what we need to focus on... too many people are staring at a rotted stump while the forest fire rages around them.

 

[cwjerome]

When the GOP's supposedly Law & Order President attempts a coup & they still support him, that's fucked up in the extreme. It's cult of personality bullshit.

Totally agree.

 

[cwjerome]

It's pretty easy.

List the top 10 problems that this country faces. If it's hilariously inane bullshit like CRT, Covid Vaccines, Social Media "censorship", etc, then you're a Republican pretending to be an Independent and can be safely ignored.

If it's real, actual problems like climate change, healthcare, renewable energy, etc., then list 5 fucking Republicans who have any serious ideas to actually address any of those problems, besides just saying "tax cuts" and "deregulation". Hint: they don't fucking exist.

And if the Democrats solutions are "too extreme", because the problems aren't that bad, well guess what, that's the whole god damn point of US Government being tied in knots and unable to "do things", because hey, fuck it, the problems aren't that bad, it's better that nothing gets done.

In other words, The FUCKING DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS THE BIG TENT PARTY ALREADY. You have Manchin and Sinema and Ocasio-Cortez. That's the full fucking gamut of "identifies problems and puts forward solutions" right there. The Republican Party only gives a fuck about tax cuts for the rich and scaring their base into believing wildly hilarious delusions that their propaganda networks push out over TV, Radio, and Internet. i.e. COVID vaccines are for a hoax disease that is also a Chinese Superweapon or whatever nonsense they can believe and disbelieve at will because that's how they've been trained to believe for going on 40 years now.

RadicalIndependent™ is here to push one agenda: BothSidesDoIt™. The BigLie that allows the Republican Party to continue skullfucking this country to death for a few oligarchs' couch cushion change.

I think you've remarkably demonstrated why Left partisans are just as unreasonable, tribal, and simplistic. You've already assigned me into some fantasy category, and it's pretty clear you're entire worldview consists of the same rainbows and unicorns. As I mentioned earlier, try not to be so surface level with talking point distractions and look at the big picture. If you remain a concrete-bound thinker, you'll always be played.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Hahah, yep. When a moderate independent gets lashed, you know the thought-police are kicking their boots high! Toe the line! This is the thoughtful, reasonable left? Yeah... hard pass. And they wonder why people get turned off by this stuff? I think this thread is making my point fairly well...

This paints the picture pretty well




To the latest that REALLY emphasizes it....

 

[fskimospy]

Both sides:
Beholden to special interests
Lack of independent thinking
Creating rigged and corrupt policies and election laws that favor them and stifle choice and competition
Lack of honesty and integrity
Permanent campaign
Blank check spending
Intrusive/oppressive laws
Short term focus
Oblivious to negative externalities and unintended consequences
... more, and more, and more

They do all of these things at the expense of the people and good government

What you’re showing here is that you’re part of the problem because you’re enabling the GOP.

While the Democrats aren’t perfect they are essentially a mainstream governing party in the mold of liberal parties in the western world. The GOP is a radical right party that is currently going down the path of Fidesz in Hungary or the ruling party in Poland.

By saying both parties are the problem you ensure the GOP pays no price for undermining democracy. You are part of their playbook.

 

[cwjerome]

What you’re showing here is that you’re part of the problem because you’re enabling the GOP.

While the Democrats aren’t perfect they are essentially a mainstream governing party in the mold of liberal parties in the western world. The GOP is a radical right party that is currently going down the path of Fidesz in Hungary or the ruling party in Poland.

By saying both parties are the problem you ensure the GOP pays no price for undermining democracy. You are part of their playbook.

Bullshit, don't put that on me. Lesser evil voting is killing this country. Say that out loud 1000 times.

 

[fskimospy]

Bullshit, don't put that on me. Lesser evil voting is killing this country. Say that out loud 1000 times.

It definitely isn’t killing this country so no, I won’t be doing that. What is killing this country in a political sense is this very simple quote from David Frum: ‘if conservatives determine they cannot accomplish their goals democratically they will not abandon conservatism, they will abandon democracy.’

That’s what’s happening right now. To clarify this in your mind ask yourself this question: if Democrats control the House in January 2025 and the Republicans win an election as close as 2020 will Democrats seat that president? The answer is certainly yes. Now ask yourself the same question if the situation is reversed. Are you similarly certain?

 

[nickqt]

I think you've remarkably demonstrated why Left partisans are just as unreasonable, tribal, and simplistic. You've already assigned me into some fantasy category, and it's pretty clear you're entire worldview consists of the same rainbows and unicorns. As I mentioned earlier, try not to be so surface level with talking point distractions and look at the big picture. If you remain a concrete-bound thinker, you'll always be played.

Name the top 10 problems that this country faces, and the solutions you think that reasonable politicians should agree on.

I'll wait here, RadicalIndependent™.

 

[cwjerome]

It definitely isn’t killing this country so no, I won’t be doing that. What is killing this country in a political sense is this very simple quote from David Frum: ‘if conservatives determine they cannot accomplish their goals democratically they will not abandon conservatism, they will abandon democracy.’

That’s what’s happening right now. To clarify this in your mind ask yourself this question: if Democrats control the House in January 2025 and the Republicans win an election as close as 2020 will Democrats seat that president? The answer is certainly yes. Now ask yourself the same question if the situation is reversed. Are you similarly certain?

I would argue it is. We're going down a bad path and it'll only get worse because people like you will bully and guilt others into voting for crap because the other crap is worse. That's really what we've come to? I call that a broken system. I'm over it, a pox on both on them, let it burn if people don't want to wake up and show a molecule of reason, integrity, and sincerity.

 

[brycejones]

I would argue it is. We're going down a bad path and it'll only get worse because people like you will bully and guilt others into voting for crap because the other crap is worse. That's really what we've come to? I call that a broken system. I'm over it, a pox on both on them, let it burn if people don't want to wake up and show a molecule of reason, integrity, and sincerity.

It’s telling that you have not cited specific examples.

 

[fskimospy]

I would argue it is. We're going down a bad path and it'll only get worse because people like you will bully and guilt others into voting for crap because the other crap is worse. That's really what we've come to?

Well I don’t even agree we are voting for crap, so there’s that. Regardless, this is how our system has worked for centuries and things mostly turned out fine so we have only ‘come to this’ in the sense that we came to it in 1789.

I call that a broken system. I'm over it, a pox on both on them, let it burn if people don't want to wake up and show a molecule of reason, integrity, and sincerity.

This is an opinion from a position of entitlement. You might not care if the system burns down but there are a lot of poor and marginalized people in the country that don’t have that luxury.

People often don’t realize what they have until it’s gone and I would suggest to you that no matter how much you dislike the current state of things it can certainly get far, far worse.

 

[cwjerome]

Well I don’t even agree we are voting for crap, so there’s that. Regardless, this is how our system has worked for centuries and things mostly turned out fine so we have only ‘come to this’ in the sense that we came to it in 1789.


This is an opinion from a position of entitlement. You might not care if the system burns down but there are a lot of poor and marginalized people in the country that don’t have that luxury.

People often don’t realize what they have until it’s gone and I would suggest to you that no matter how much you dislike the current state of things it can certainly get far, far worse.

Yes... I believe the Dems are crap-lite. They have been pushed into extremes and we can do so much better. As far as entitlement, I think you have it backwards. If the system burns it's the "haves" that have the most to lose. Besides, it's you're arrogant demands that people vote against their values and instincts that's the epitome of entitlement.

 

[fskimospy]

Yes... I believe the Dems are crap-lite. They have been pushed into extremes and we can do so much better.

What are they extreme on, specifically?

As far as entitlement, I think you have it backwards. If the system burns it's the "haves" that have the most to lose.

Well it really all depends on how the system burns. To me the most likely answer is a collapse into presidential autocracy like in Hungary, not some sort of The Road situation. In that case it is absolutely the marginalized that have the most to lose. I hope you take a moment to think if they are as excited for this to go down as you apparently are.

Besides, it's you're arrogant demands that people vote against their values and instincts that's the epitome of entitlement.

Where have I demanded that you vote for anything?

 

[cwjerome]

Name the top 10 problems that this country faces, and the solutions you think that reasonable politicians should agree on.

I'll wait here, RadicalIndependent™.

Why are you making demands... you're like an annoying fly. I can't answer that because I have no preset, automatic, partisan, talking points to parrot. I would have to think about it and spend some time analyzing potential solutions. I do not pretend to know it all. We are on different levels. You regurgitate whatever your echo chamber demands and I have to actually put honest thought into things. Besides, your demands are spurious to my point. I'm not hear to be dragged into specific partisan slogans and cliches, I am trying to point out that out electoral system is rigged and promotes toxic dysfunction (which anyone spending 1 millisecond in P&N should readily grasp)

If you're really that interested in me, check out the FB page.