Can real civil discourse and good governance exist in our current 2-party paradigm?

[fskimospy]

My overall point is that when the last democratic president faced his party losing he invited the new guy over and shook his hand. When the last Republican president was faced with losing power he attempted to overthrow the republic.

Treating both of those as equally bad is not a good idea!

 

[cwjerome]

My overall point is that when the last democratic president faced his party losing he invited the new guy over and shook his hand. When the last Republican president was faced with losing power he attempted to overthrow the republic.

Treating both of those as equally bad is not a good idea!

I appreciate trying to get back to the main point. Let me be clear. Trump is human trash and his cultlike followers are nutters. The embarrassing meltdown of the GOP is well deserved. That said, we have a system that's created this... a broken system. And things will not get better if we just continue the toxic dysfunction and polarization. There is no endgame there. I want real change, radical change.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I appreciate trying to get back to the main point. Let me be clear. Trump is human trash and his cultlike followers are nutters. The embarrassing meltdown of the GOP is well deserved. That said, we have a system that's created this... a broken system. And things will not get better if we just continue the toxic dysfunction and polarization. There is no endgame there. I want real change, radical change.

And like I said, won't happen. Instead of talking about fixing problems, the immediate diversion is this presumption that you supported trump, and trump is evil. If you didn't vote for Trump, then you supported a warmonger GWB.

They just go to their tribal corners like monkeys.

Everytime you call people evil deplorables instead of having an ability to have a calm and rational conversation, you're just throwing gasoline on the fire and will continue our win/lose switch off of politics.

 

[brycejones]

I appreciate trying to get back to the main point. Let me be clear. Trump is human trash and his cultlike followers are nutters. The embarrassing meltdown of the GOP is well deserved. That said, we have a system that's created this... a broken system. And things will not get better if we just continue the toxic dysfunction and polarization. There is no endgame there. I want real change, radical change.

What specifically have the democrats done that makes them as bad in your eyes as the GOP? You seem to be very reluctant to provide specifics.

Can you also point to a political system/country that models the behaviors you desire?

 

[MrSquished]

Overall I think the 2 party system is bad - the whole system needs to be overhauled. We need a system where more than two parties can thrive. What the founding fathers created has seen its limits - the EC, the power of Senators from small states is now simply over-represented, etc...we need more than 2 parties. However, we are now in a battle between one sane party with its flaws, and one insane party who simply embodies flaws, period. I need to see that one insane party broken down before we can move forward and truly evolve the system.

The GQP must be stopped at all costs.

 

[nickqt]

Why are you making demands... you're like an annoying fly. I can't answer that because I have no preset, automatic, partisan, talking points to parrot. I would have to think about it and spend some time analyzing potential solutions. I do not pretend to know it all. We are on different levels. You regurgitate whatever your echo chamber demands and I have to actually put honest thought into things. Besides, your demands are spurious to my point. I'm not hear to be dragged into specific partisan slogans and cliches, I am trying to point out that out electoral system is rigged and promotes toxic dysfunction (which anyone spending 1 millisecond in P&N should readily grasp)

If you're really that interested in me, check out the FB page.

So you can't name a problem this country faces?

You're here to scream BothSidesDoIt™.

Got it.

 

[Rebel_L]

My overall point is that when the last democratic president faced his party losing he invited the new guy over and shook his hand. When the last Republican president was faced with losing power he attempted to overthrow the republic.

Treating both of those as equally bad is not a good idea!

So if your choices are complete lunacy or whatever the other party focus's on do you still feel like you are making choice?

What do you do if for instance you know the democratic candidate you would have to vote for and that person is very corrupt and should not be representing anyone?

 

[Jhhnn]

Totally agree.

And so long as they hold to that, how do we reason with them? It's not like they're interested in governing under the Constitution when they're still clamoring to overturn the election.

 

[cwjerome]

What specifically have the democrats done that makes them as bad in your eyes as the GOP? You seem to be very reluctant to provide specifics.

Can you also point to a political system/country that models the behaviors you desire?

On net, they are not as bad as the GOP. The main concerns I have are how the parties operate and exist. I am less concerned with actual issues (like abortion, etc) I feel that reasonable people can disagree, compromise, and function together on a variety of issues, but that really can't happen now because of the problems I have mentioned creating a emotional, sensational, extremist atmosphere.

I don't have a country in mind, although a multiparty system might work better because it forces compromise. Abolishing winner take all elections and closed primaries, changing election laws, banning jerrymandering, and implementing term limits, among many other things, can help. But ultimately we need a population (and media) dedicated to independent thinking and sincere reasoning to break the tribal team sport mentality. I'm talking a cultural shift.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yes... I believe the Dems are crap-lite. They have been pushed into extremes and we can do so much better. As far as entitlement, I think you have it backwards. If the system burns it's the "haves" that have the most to lose. Besides, it's you're arrogant demands that people vote against their values and instincts that's the epitome of entitlement.

You have no instincts and you have no values.

What you have are feelings of worthlessness and guilt you are afraid to feel.

You imagine you are not a partisan because your partisanship is hidden behind the belief you hold onto for dear life that you are actually against it. You are a partisan and a true believer, and your guilt and feelings of worthlessness make you blind to the core. You have become the very thing you hate.

And I have completely wasted my time trying to explain this. Why? Because you are completely and utterly without any significance as I once long ago discovered myself and everything else I believed in to be. It makes no difference whether you know or not to me but it made a huge difference when I knew it about me.

Good luck. Carry on with your denial. I have to go feed my cats. I love them because we share very similar political beliefs.

 

[Jhhnn]

I appreciate trying to get back to the main point. Let me be clear. Trump is human trash and his cultlike followers are nutters. The embarrassing meltdown of the GOP is well deserved. That said, we have a system that's created this... a broken system. And things will not get better if we just continue the toxic dysfunction and polarization. There is no endgame there. I want real change, radical change.

Then quit voting Republican. Or take your party back. Their current raison de etre is simply to oppose whatever Dems want, including full vaccination against Covid.

 

[fskimospy]

I appreciate trying to get back to the main point. Let me be clear. Trump is human trash and his cultlike followers are nutters. The embarrassing meltdown of the GOP is well deserved. That said, we have a system that's created this... a broken system. And things will not get better if we just continue the toxic dysfunction and polarization. There is no endgame there. I want real change, radical change.

Right but you aren’t engaging with my point, which is that this is not a #bothsides thing. One party is driving this dysfunction and they are literally counting on people to blame both parties for it as part of their plan.

 

[fskimospy]

So if your choices are complete lunacy or whatever the other party focus's on do you still feel like you are making choice?

What do you do if for instance you know the democratic candidate you would have to vote for and that person is very corrupt and should not be representing anyone?

That’s what we have primaries and law enforcement for.

 

[fskimospy]

And like I said, won't happen. Instead of talking about fixing problems, the immediate diversion is this presumption that you supported trump, and trump is evil. If you didn't vote for Trump, then you supported a warmonger GWB.

They just go to their tribal corners like monkeys.

Everytime you call people evil deplorables instead of having an ability to have a calm and rational conversation, you're just throwing gasoline on the fire and will continue our win/lose switch off of politics.

The guy who struggles to go multiple paragraphs without insulting people wants us to know that insulting people is bad.

 

[cwjerome]

Then quit voting Republican. Or take your party back. Their current raison de etre is simply to oppose whatever Dems want, including full vaccination against Covid.

Tell that to a Republican... I have no use for political tribes. Pretty sure the last time I posted here was 2016 during the GOP primary debate, and I made my thoughts about Trump pretty clear.

 

[cwjerome]

Right but you aren’t engaging with my point, which is that this is not a #bothsides thing. One party is driving this dysfunction and they are literally counting on people to blame both parties for it as part of their plan.

I'll just copy and paste this again.... a both sides thing:
Beholden to special interests
Lack of independent thinking
Creating rigged and corrupt policies and election laws that favor them and stifle choice and competition
Lack of honesty and integrity
Permanent campaign
Blank check spending
Intrusive/oppressive laws
Short term focus
Oblivious to negative externalities and unintended consequences
... more, and more, and more (including horrible policy prescriptions)

They do all of these things at the expense of the people and good government

 

[Moonbeam]

I'll just copy and paste this again.... a both sides thing:
Beholden to special interests
Lack of independent thinking
Creating rigged and corrupt policies and election laws that favor them and stifle choice and competition
Lack of honesty and integrity
Permanent campaign
Blank check spending
Intrusive/oppressive laws
Short term focus
Oblivious to negative externalities and unintended consequences
... more, and more, and more (including horrible policy prescriptions)

They do all of these things at the expense of the people and good government

What good government is is your belief system. It all depends on what you have been programmed to believe the good is leaving you with the unconscious assumption you know what the good is. It is a hidden form of conceit that protects you from chaos and uncertainty. You fear knowing nothing but we always create what we fear. It is a paper bag from which you can't punch out because the way out is always 180 degrees from where you look.

 

[kage69]

I'll just copy and paste this again.... a both sides thing:
Beholden to special interests
Lack of independent thinking
Creating rigged and corrupt policies and election laws that favor them and stifle choice and competition
Lack of honesty and integrity
Permanent campaign
Blank check spending
Intrusive/oppressive laws
Short term focus
Oblivious to negative externalities and unintended consequences
... more, and more, and more (including horrible policy prescriptions)

They do all of these things at the expense of the people and good government

Damn, what an absolute load.

Apart from the lameness of you simply coughing up a list of false equivalencies, some of your examples are just sheer projection of the smelliest kind. Right wing science deniers have long criticized environmentalists on the left of living in a far off nonsensical future, stressing the current day weather or a snowball they kept in the freezer as some kind of proof. Permanent campaign? Takes nuts to ascribe that to Dems after 4 years of Trump rallies and him ripping off his supporters. Can't say I've seen any Democratic Governors or caucuses get behind clearly un Constitutional laws like Florida and other red states have, so there goes the intrusive/oppressive laws attempt. I could go on and on, but I'll sum it up as this just seems like you're reheating standard shill fare here. Take complaints leveled at GQP with good cause for years and simply dismiss with "BothSides." How boring.

Even before Trump you were wrong. After Trump, regurgitating this dreck makes you just sound indoctrinated, cursed with a poor memory for sure.

 

[fskimospy]

I'll just copy and paste this again.... a both sides thing:
Beholden to special interests
Lack of independent thinking
Creating rigged and corrupt policies and election laws that favor them and stifle choice and competition
Lack of honesty and integrity
Permanent campaign
Blank check spending
Intrusive/oppressive laws
Short term focus
Oblivious to negative externalities and unintended consequences
... more, and more, and more (including horrible policy prescriptions)

They do all of these things at the expense of the people and good government

Right, you are still not engaging with my point. One party just attempted to end the republic. This is not a both sides thing.

 

[DaaQ]

I think it's naive to believe it's only the GOP. Our current two-party system is incredibly tribal, incredibly cultish, and exists only to win elections at any cost. It's tearing down essential values that hold things together.

Both sides:
Beholden to special interests
Lack of independent thinking
Creating rigged and corrupt policies and election laws that favor them and stifle choice and competition
Lack of honesty and integrity
Permanent campaign
Blank check spending
Intrusive/oppressive laws
Short term focus
Oblivious to negative externalities and unintended consequences
... more, and more, and more

They do all of these things at the expense of the people and good government

Constitutional amendment to remove Citizens United

I would argue it is. We're going down a bad path and it'll only get worse because people like you will bully and guilt others into voting for crap because the other crap is worse. That's really what we've come to? I call that a broken system. I'm over it, a pox on both on them, let it burn if people don't want to wake up and show a molecule of reason, integrity, and sincerity.

Constitutional amendment to remove Citizens United

I appreciate trying to get back to the main point. Let me be clear. Trump is human trash and his cultlike followers are nutters. The embarrassing meltdown of the GOP is well deserved. That said, we have a system that's created this... a broken system. And things will not get better if we just continue the toxic dysfunction and polarization. There is no endgame there. I want real change, radical change.

Constitutional amendment to remove Citizens United

So if your choices are complete lunacy or whatever the other party focus's on do you still feel like you are making choice?

What do you do if for instance you know the democratic candidate you would have to vote for and that person is very corrupt and should not be representing anyone?

Constitutional amendment to remove Citizens United

I'll just copy and paste this again.... a both sides thing:
Beholden to special interests
Lack of independent thinking
Creating rigged and corrupt policies and election laws that favor them and stifle choice and competition
Lack of honesty and integrity
Permanent campaign
Blank check spending
Intrusive/oppressive laws
Short term focus
Oblivious to negative externalities and unintended consequences
... more, and more, and more (including horrible policy prescriptions)

They do all of these things at the expense of the people and good government

Constitutional amendment to remove Citizens United

You realize this is THE crux of the problem?

 

[cwjerome]

Right, you are still not engaging with my point. One party just attempted to end the republic. This is not a both sides thing.

Oh lord, the Republican Party attempted to end the republic? How can I take you seriously now?

Every thing I listed earlier is part of the growing dysfunction. If you think the Dem party hasn't heavily contributed to our current political shithole over the last few decades, then I'd just suggest that people who are the problem can’t see the problem. Yep, the GOP is worse... but if you think I'm going to support a lousy party because the opposition is worse, well, I'm not. I demand better.

For those of you who are pleased with a party and/or its candidate, there is not much for me to say. Congrats. I am not arguing petty politics, and if people like their candidate, then good for them. If you like Biden and you like half of Congress... whatever (but wow). I am reaching out to the non-partisans that realize our horrible state of politics in general is the result of a crooked two party system (and all those things on my list) that has created polarized gridlock and endless conflict that drags down our economy, our discourse, and our spirits. We understand that being forced into 2 increasingly shitty choices is tearing this country apart. The Dem Party cannot fix the toxic dysfunction and make things better. It'll be people like me or it'll be collapse.

 

[cwjerome]

Constitutional amendment to remove Citizens United

You realize this is THE crux of the problem?

I don't think that's the crux (the problems are far broader and deeper) but it is a serious issue.

 

[woolfe9998]

Unfortunately we're past civil discourse here. Used to believe in it. It was all over my early postings to P&N. But it just isn't possible when one side has no interest in even having a dialogue with the other. Civil discourse presupposes that both sides are listening and actively engaged in good faith. That just isn't happening now.

 

[Moonbeam]

Unfortunately we're past civil discourse here. Used to believe in it. It was all over my early postings to P&N. But it just isn't possible when one side has no interest in even having a dialogue with the other. Civil discourse presupposes that both sides are listening and actively engaged in good faith. That just isn't happening now.

True blindness is seeing one's own blindness as the blindness of others because of a unexamined assumption that what one believes is actually important. What objectivity can there be for those who imagine that what they believe is what makes them valuable people. The more worthless the belief the greater the need not to see it as such in order to protect the ego.

 

[fskimospy]

Oh lord, the Republican Party attempted to end the republic? How can I take you seriously now?

Yes, and the fact that you don’t realize this shows why you’re part of the problem.

The former president of the United States when confronted with a lost election manufactured false claims that it was stolen from him and then attempted to have election officials alter the vote counts to make him the winner. When they refused, he then attempted to have the Vice President and Congress refuse to certify the election so that the states could then overturn the election. A large percentage of elected officials were on board with this. What do you call the chief executive trying to extralegally overturn the results of an election he lost?

All of this is uncontested fact. You never answered me before, but I think it might help you understand the situation better. If Republicans control Congress and the presidency and we have an election identical to 2020 where the Democrats win are you certain they will turn over power? I’m definitely not.

Every thing I listed earlier is part of the growing dysfunction. If you think the Dem party hasn't heavily contributed to our current political shithole over the last few decades, then I'd just suggest that people who are the problem can’t see the problem. Yep, the GOP is worse... but if you think I'm going to support a lousy party because the opposition is worse, well, I'm not. I demand better.

For those of you who are pleased with a party and/or its candidate, there is not much for me to say. Congrats. I am not arguing petty politics, and if people like their candidate, then good for them. If you like Biden and you like half of Congress... whatever (but wow). I am reaching out to the non-partisans that realize our horrible state of politics in general is the result of a crooked two party system (and all those things on my list) that has created polarized gridlock and endless conflict that drags down our economy, our discourse, and our spirits. We understand that being forced into 2 increasingly shitty choices is tearing this country apart. The Dem Party cannot fix the toxic dysfunction and make things better. It'll be people like me or it'll be collapse.

You can’t fix the problem because you can’t see or understand the problem. Really, you’re part of the problem because you’re enabling it.

Like I said in my first post people like to think that the enlightened position is to #bothsides this issue because they think this makes them non-partisan. What it really makes them is naive.

Let me suggest you check this book out. It explains what I’m talking about in more detail.

It's Even Worse Than It Looks - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The authors describe the [Republican] party as "an insurgent outlier – ideologically extreme; contemptuous of the inherited social and economic policy regime; scornful of compromise; unpersuaded by conventional understanding of facts, evidence and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition.”

That is the problem, right there.