Can Christians Do Good For Goodness Sake?

[GagHalfrunt]

God certainly doesn't need me to defend him.

A real god wouldn't need defending at all.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

God certainly doesn't need me to defend him.

Who?

I would like you to review this thread and count how many derogatory, belittling, offensive posts were made by logic loving atheists versus us believers.

Does that mean there's a god?

 

[Puffnstuff]

Salvation is by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.…

1 John 1:9New King James Version (NKJV)
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Keeping this in context if you confess your sins to Jesus he will for give you of your sins and you will obtain eternal life with God. Jesus is God in the flesh (John 1:1) and in Colossians 1:8 he is again declared as God. There is a Trinity that is manifest in the person Jesus Christ who is God and the only representation of God that a Christian will actually see.

You can claim that you are a Christian all day but if you cannot confess with your mouth (Romans 10:9) that Jesus is God in the flesh (1 John 4:1-2) then you do not have the spirit of God within you and are an empty vessel (Matthew 25:1-13) that the Lord will deny Matthew 7:22-23. I obtained this free gift of God when I was a child because I understood to confess my sins to Jesus and there was assent on my part of this need which Jesus accepted granting me forgiveness and imparting to me the Holy Spirit, the great discerner of all things. This is the very same assent that one needs to form a legal contract in which both parties must have a meeting of the minds and come to a full understanding and agreement on the terms thereof. I continue to warn those who claim to be Christian about their error but they don't want to hear me and on their day of judgement they will be reminded of how many times an actual Christian attempted to help them.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Who?


Does that mean there's a god?

It means that apparently you don't believe logic is enough and must resort to name calling, derogatory comments, offensive behavior and, belittling the beliefs of those you do not share in the vain attempt to 'win' some sort of Internet competition only you know the importance of. God bless.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

It means that apparently you don't believe logic is enough

Well, certainly. If you could reason with religious people, there wouldn't be religious people.

...and must resort to name calling, derogatory comments, offensive behavior and, belittling the beliefs of those you do not share

If and when I meet a theist willing to debate the question of god's existence in good faith, that person will receive respectful treatment. If you're not going to respect principles of reason and evidence, I'm not going to respect you. The theists here have already sorted themselves.

...in the vain attempt to 'win' some sort of Internet competition only you know the importance of. God bless.

There's no winning or losing here. There's only participating or not participating. If you don't like participating, don't participate. How have you not figured this out? Forgot to pray to god for the answer?

 

[MajinCry]

People tend to forget, God is not only the final arbiter, he is the sole arbiter. It is the height of hubris to declare someone is going to hell because they do not believe what you do.

No, it's to have read the Bible.

Exodus 20:3

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exodus 22:20

He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Exodus 23:24

Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images

Exodus 34 is rather...Quaint.

Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you.

13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.

14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

15 “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices.

16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

And that's just Exodus. Have you read the Bible?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Well, certainly. If you could reason with religious people, there wouldn't be religious people.


If and when I meet a theist willing to debate the question of god's existence in good faith, that person will receive respectful treatment. If you're not going to respect principles of reason and evidence, I'm not going to respect you. The theists here have already sorted themselves.


There's no winning or losing here. There's only participating or not participating. If you don't like participating, don't participate. How have you not figured this out? Forgot to pray to god for the answer?

Why do you suppose all us illogical believers treat you with greater respect than you show us? Are we inherently better people or, are we doing our best to follow the teachings of someone you don't believe in? In your world of the blind, the one eyed man isn't king, he's ridiculed for 'sight' that can't be proved or, pointed to.

 

[MajinCry]

Why do you suppose all us illogical believers treat you with greater respect than you show us? Are we inherently better people or, are we doing our best to follow the teachings of someone you don't believe in? In your world of the blind, the one eyed man isn't king, he's ridiculed for 'sight' that can't be proved or, pointed to.

Respect my arse. You thoroughly believe that non-Christians are going to hell, that they deserve it, and that your god is a loving one.

Hellfire for disbelief is the whole shtick of the New Testament.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Respect my arse. You thoroughly believe that non-Christians are going to hell, that they deserve it, and that your god is a loving one.

Hellfire for disbelief is the whole shtick of the New Testament.

I don't believe non-Christians are going to hell, nor do I believe any human has the right to declare such as that is God's decision alone. I do believe God is love. Redemption and love is the whole 'shtick' of the New Testament..

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Why do you suppose all us illogical believers treat you with greater respect than you show us?

What the fuck are you talking about? You know my experience better than I do? Yeah, that's some real respect there.

Are we inherently better people or, are we doing our best to follow the teachings of someone you don't believe in? In your world of the blind, the one eyed man isn't king, he's ridiculed for 'sight' that can't be proved or, pointed to.

Fuck's sake, can you be any more pathetically transparent? Do you think this is like my first day debating obstinately ignorant theists?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

What the fuck are you talking about? You know my experience better than I do? Yeah, that's some real respect there.


Fuck's sake, can you be any more pathetically transparent? Do you think this is like my first day debating obstinately ignorant theists?

Calm down, you seem to be getting a little hysterical. Perhaps you would like a safe place?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I'm sorry your version of reality is limited to what you can point at. It's sad and self deceiving to reduce the total of human existence and it's gamut of emotions to the chemical and electrical functions of the body.

Remember when you said this to me? Even though my "version of reality" is not "limited to what I can point at," you still felt good to call my position "sad" and "self-deceiving" while falsely characterising it and totally ignoring the substance of the point at hand. You just wanted to disparage me.

And you have the nerve to claim some kind of high ground of respectful treatment?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Calm down, you seem to be getting a little hysterical. Perhaps you would like a safe place?

Yep, there's that good ol fashioned Christian "respect." You're an example to us all.

Fucking hypocrite.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Yep, there's that good ol fashioned Christian "respect." You're an example to us all.

Fucking hypocrite.

You seem to have respect and door mat confused.

 

[sandorski]

Calm down, you seem to be getting a little hysterical. Perhaps you would like a safe place?

Let your Self-Righteousness flow through you.

 

[Kaido]

I have included a link where the Christian apologist insists that all good works done by Christians will be rewarded in Heaven. Lets think about that for a second. It is impossible for a Christian to do good for other people without storing a payment in Heaven for that good work, he cannot do good for the simple reason that he wants to help his fellow man.... it is all about him earning special status symbols for himself when he gets to Heaven. Since the Christian is only doing good work to get payments in Heaven (selfish) can his good works really be qualified as good works? Wouldn't it simply be his job? What is so outstanding about a person doing work for pay?

Compare that to an atheist who does good work. The atheist is doing the good work for the simple fact that he wants to help his fellow man. He does not expect nor desire a reward for his good work other than the good feeling that he gets from helping those in need.

Last point: this Heaven Christians aspire to will apparently have a class system similar to that on earth with an underclass and an elite class that has more swag. So for the rest of time, those with swag can rub it in the face of those without swag, yea that sounds just dandy.

On a tangent, I recently watched "Stephen Fry in America" on Netflix (excellent & worth a watch). In one episode, he visits a large prison where the warden talks about the differences between people who can function in normal society & people who commit crimes and need to be removed from society. He said it basically boiled down to the person being moral or not; generally-speaking, moral people don't commit crimes, whereas immoral people commit crimes (and recommit crimes). You can apply that to religion, humanism, and other worldviews, but I thought that morality was a pretty interesting line in the sand in terms of people who were free & people who were locked away.

I don't think that religion is that black & white, at least for most people, in terms of simply doing good works to get a reward (or to avoid punishment & guilt). I think being moral person has a lot to do with it, i.e. do good things & feel good, do bad things & feel bad. If you weren't raised with good values & never developed any on your own, your moral compass might be strongly lacking. I've had a few friends go to prison & they've all said that a lot of the prisoners simply don't have the education (upbringing, habits, personal beliefs, etc.) to easily fix their situation...no good role models in their life, lack of education, especially literacy, and a host of other problems, and a lot of them end up back in prison because they don't really know any other way. They don't see a problem with stealing, hurting other people, killing other people, lying, and so on. And aside from someone with say severe mental issues who can't tell the difference between right or wrong, if you're never taught what is good & bad, then you don't really stand a chance. I believe this is true for certain people because I had a roommate in the past who was "rehabilitated"...he literally grew up without anyone teaching him right or wrong & kept on hitting up prison until he finally got on a better track & quite literally had to learn to realize that what he was doing was wrong.

Anyway, I don't think that all religious people do good works for selfish reasons. I'm sure there are some. And I'm sure that some of those do it out of fear of perceived repercussions in the next life because there's an awful lot of pressure placed on people in some religions. But it does seem kind of silly to put on a fake exterior for the purpose of winning some award down the road, while your fellow men rot & suffer, because that kind of defeats the point of being a genuinely good person. In fact, I don't really think that the perspective of loot-gathering, exclusion-oriented tiers of heaven even really makes sense. I think it has more to do with what type of person you are & thus who you want to spend time with. If you're family-oriented with good moral values, you're probably not going to be super comfortable hanging around at biker bars with heavy drugs, prostitutes, and illegal activities going on...you'll want to be around other people who share your values & treat you well.

There's a great line from Jack Johnson's song "I Got You" where he says, talking about his past perspective, "heaven was a place still in space, not in motion". I think this makes more sense because really, in the generic concept of the afterlife, what use are you going to have for treasure in heaven? It's not like you're going to need the money from gold-plated roads to pay for the iPhone 17, you know? It makes more sense that it's more about how people treat each other & behave than about what you have, because we already have that have & have-not caste system in the current state of affairs on earth & it stinks lol. Human nature is a really interesting topic to me & I am a big believer that habits define our lives. If you do believe in heaven, then coupling those two ideas together means that you're not really going to change who you are in the next life, which means that the person that you choose to be right now, today, on an ongoing basis, is the person that you're going to be, because that's how habits work (unless you choose to change). So that line of "heaven was a place still in space" is the traditional concept of heaven being for do-gooders at a future point, instead of "heaven is a place in motion", being that you can choose how good of a life you want to lead based on your free agency, with an understanding that you're not gonna change in this life or the next because you choose how you act, so it's really more about personal choices & what type of people you're comfortable with than anything, it seems like.

Like I said, on a tangent. The motivation for different behaviors is a fascinating topic to discuss. To me, given human nature & especially habit-based behavior, it doesn't really make sense that heaven would simply be an "I'm better than you" exclusionary place because that would negate the purpose of being good to one another, thus it doesn't really make sense for religious people to act with a facade on all the time where they act good publicly but are privately just selfishly tucking away heavenly brownie points. That's not to say people don't act like that, but I know plenty of religious people who are just plain good people, just as I know plenty of atheist, agnostic, and other non-religious people who are good people as well. After writing this post out, it sounds like being a good Christian for the sake of unlocking achievements in the afterlife would really just create a nasty corporate culture like we have in capitalist countries where people are motivated by hidden agendas, rather than just being up-front & genuine. Which doesn't seem like it would work, based on the conventional definition of heaven

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You seem to have respect and door mat confused.

Oh yeah, go ahead and explain how I've done that. Pretty, pretty please.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Oh yeah, go ahead and explain how I've done that. Pretty, pretty please.

 

[MajinCry]

I don't believe non-Christians are going to hell, nor do I believe any human has the right to declare such as that is God's decision alone. I do believe God is love. Redemption and love is the whole 'shtick' of the New Testament..

That goes completely against what the Bible says.

God is love? You fucking kidding me? Let's just pretend that whole flood thing never happened, that Soddom and Gomorrah never happened, that the Garden Of Eden never happened, that the whole hell thing doesn't exist, that Leviticus is a myth, that Deuteronomy isn't scripture, etc. etc.

The real kicker? Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness. I create good, and I create evil. I, The LORD, do all these things

I take it that you think Jimmy Saville is a wonderful bloke, Jeffrey Epstein an upstanding citizen, the war in Vietnam a righteous crusade, and Columbus as an honest explorer, if your criteria of what love and goodness is as you stated.

And dude, it's the New Testament that brought in Hell for those that don't adhere to the commandments. Before Jesus, there was only death or Heaven. Now, it's Heaven or Hell.

It's like a victim of sexual abuse and marital rape by the hands of her husband, saying that same person is a good, loving family man.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Well Iets see, I've listened to you without rancor while you have continued your pattern of belittlement, poor behavior and disrespect. However, as much as you seem to enjoy the attention, this thread isn't about you or me. God bless.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Well Iets see, I've listened to you without rancor

Bullshit. I tried to stay focused on the issue from the beginning of my entry to this thread. All you could muster was some disparaging remarks about how "sad" and "self-deceived" I am and then you bailed.

Lie to yourself all you want, but don't think you can lie to me without getting called on it.

...while you have continued your pattern of belittlement, poor behavior and disrespect. However, as much as you seem to enjoy the attention, this thread isn't about you or me. God bless.

Don't be such a whinging dick and I won't have to point out that you're a whinging dick. Let's talk about reasons to believe god exists. Got any?

I won't hold my breath.

 

[FelixDeCat]

...

 

[Blue_Max]

That goes completely against what the Bible says.

Doesn't it ever seem odd to you that whenever you go to the bible for something terrible, it's always, ALWAYS old testament....?

 

[IronWing]

People tend to forget, God is not only the final arbiter, he is the sole arbiter. It is the height of hubris to declare someone is going to hell because they do not believe what you do.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Why do you have your panties in a bunch?

Why do you molest farm animals?