Can capitalism survive?

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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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I'd turn the question around. Can you get rid of capitalism?

I'd say the answer is "no". It flourishes even when illegal (drugs sales, black market goods, etc.).

Fern

It flourishes when there is a shortage, just like capitalist explotation depends on lack of overproduction. (which is where commercialization and manipulation of consumers comes in by literally brainwashing people into subsidizing the capitalists classes status quo of "safe" production choices. Both depend on manipulation or strife, a inherently coercive enviroment.

We live on a planet with more then enough for all. Thus barring the rut we are in currently 300 years from now how are we going to be judged with a population of wage slaves? Wasted human potential by literally shoveling bodies into a unstable irrational system?

Capitalism is a optional coercive system from our past. this thread is about the future, not the mess we are in now. All throughout human history the majority always whines about how broke the system is, until people hash it out and do something better instead of feeding the status quo.

As a drunk long bearded economic idealist said long ago: humanity has nothing to lose but it's chains by moving on from serfdom and moving beyond exploitative systems of Production based off of pseudo religious justifications of the holy profits over the human condition.
 
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
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I reject the inherently weak attitude based off of Some arbitrary population numberBober, that's like saying people in large cities cannot organize, homo sapient are amazingly adaptable, and besides our intellect we grow stronger in numbers. You make a argument for the status quo with defeatism. This is how they keep power, through apathy, although the history of humanity shows the very opposite. Don't be so emo. ;)

No, I don't think you can put an arbitrary number on it. Collectively humankind has done amazing things in large groups. However there are limits to what can be accomplished without exploitation. At a big enough scope, there has to be someone in charge, and that person has to create expectations of those people that are attempting to organize. We call those people leaders. Whether or not they're fit to lead is another discussion, but there they are. By the very definition, aren't those leaders exploiting the rest of us? Some people think a manned mission to Mars is something we should dive into headfirst. Others disagree. Isn't forcing people to pay for such a thing through taxation exploitation? Look at all of the great achievements of mankind, all of them involve what you would likely consider exploitation, few benefited greatly at the expense of the many. So tell me, how do you organize in mass numbers without exploitation?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
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I do own a small coop actually for 3 years now and I am doing fine, which if anything else proves my view more. But thanks for your career advice. As usual 2 steps ahead there comrade. :3

Small being the key word. ;)

Think you could manage it properly and fairly if you forced everyone in your city to be a part of that co-op?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
We live on a planet with more then enough for all. Thus barring the rut we are in currently 300 years from now how are we going to be judged with a population of wage slaves? Wasted human potential by literally shoveling bodies into a unstable irrational system?

No, we don't. Your vision is like Roddenberry's and depends on unlimited free energy. We do not have enough resources for everyone, because everyone essentially has limitless appetites for consumption. If it was an option, who wouldn't want to own their own private yacht and jet? In your utopia, people would simply want less. To do that however when we know they want the opposite requires someone to force people to live a certain approved lifestyle lesser than the one they desire, which is just as coercive as the sytem you criticize.

Capitalism is the only system we've found so far which can distribute resources in the most efficient manner possible based on the needs and wants of the populace. You can argue that the populace is manipulated, but that's their own fault. People could choose to want less, but they don't. Consumerism was around long before advertising. People like nice things, it's just the way we are.
 
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Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,215
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I agree completely. The concept of Wall Street is mind boggling to me, of course limited liability ownership of companies is going to devolve into the worst possible acts. How could it not? Your only stake is your initial capital. If injured parties could go after shareholders for damages beyond the value of the company, you'd see a whole lot more attention paid to what the officers of that company were doing.

And we differ in that I don't think regulation is the answer. We have the SEC, but what does that do? Lulls people into a false sense of security, assuming that some government agency is looking out for them meaning they can ignore their due diligence. Instead, the SEC looks the other way until some company makes a political enemy, meaning that as long as you buy the right people you can pull off any scam you want and "investors" will hand you money as long as they see a return.

I agree that the SEC is worthless but I still think the repeal of Glass-Steigal was the final nail in the coffin of the economic collapse.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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Small being the key word. ;)

Think you could manage it properly and fairly if you forced everyone in your city to be a part of that co-op?

It supports myself and some who at one point had no future well enough, and we are always expanding. You must work from the bottom up, this is the key to reponsiveness in a changing world. I do not really care for the rat race of society, to me it is a unsustainable farce. Together our crew in 3 years have seen many fail who squandered what to us are insane capital. The unsustainable farce of sucess through accumulation stinks.

We do it our way on our terms, workers know inherently what works and this is happiness.

The trick is to destroy power structures, not people.
How can you think of individual liberty when you are but the cog in someone else machine. You put the cart before the horse.
 
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
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It supports myself and some who at one point had no future well enough, and we are always expanding. You must work from the bottom up, this is the key to reponsiveness in a changing world. I do not really care for the rat race of society, to me it is a unsustainable farce. Together our crew in 3 years have seen many fail who squandered what to us are insane capital. The unsustainable farce of sucess through accumulation stinks.

We do it our way on our terms, workers know inherently what works and this is happiness.

The trick is to destroy power structures, not people.

Sounds awfully libertarian... ;)
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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No, we don't. Your vision is like Roddenberry's and depends on unlimited free energy. We do not have enough resources for everyone, because everyone essentially has limitless appetites for consumption. If it was an option, who wouldn't want to own their own private yacht and jet? In your utopia, people would simply want less. To do that however when we know they want the opposite requires someone to force people to live a certain approved lifestyle lesser than the one they desire, which is just as coercive as the sytem you criticize.

Capitalism is the only system we've found so far which can distribute resources in the most efficient manner possible based on the needs and wants of the populace. You can argue that the populace is manipulated, but that's their own fault. People could choose to want less, but they don't. Consumerism was around long before advertising. People like nice things, it's just the way we are.

I suggest watching "the century of self" consumerism is a wholly artificial calculated manipulation of people's self esteem and ego through mass media humans are actually quite utilitarian if not manipulated.

The capitalist class tell us this to stave off the enemy of capitalism: overproduction. It's a lie. There is not short term profits in producing long lasting goods. This is why we live in a disposable economy. As a capitalist it is even foul free market manipulation if you look at the big picture.
 
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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I suggest watching "the century of self" consumerism is a wholly artificial calculated manipulation of people's self esteem and ego through mass media humans are actually quite utilitarian if not manipulated.

I don't argue with that one bit, but you've obviously been able to eschew excess consumerism, why can't others? I'm personally not a big consumer. When I have money I spend it, when I don't I don't. I don't really chase after money, of course when I spent a couple years not chasing money all the liberals in this forum called me an unemployed loser, LOL! You should all have been cheering for me as a part of the enlightened elite, casting aside the trappings of consumerism and greed. :p
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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Living on the dole is being a cog in the machine also. You as well as I know this. I do not look down on someone for doing it as nessesity in the real world anymore then someone who works in a endless row of souless cubicles. But as a person we all know you are still "not your own man" I am a dick about it on the hypocrisy tip. I am stern with anyone not living up to what they can be.

I have been homeless and lived under bridges, but never asked anyone to save me. I have no family really. So I could not. But one thing I have learned is that a lot of this self made conservative BS mainly comes from those who are anything but. This is why I despise the dog eat dog social Darwinism, it's a superiority entitlement trip. I have seen People go from nothing, half dead at with a needle hanging from their arms at 14 to be happy hardworking folks. And yes, many times society got them there, and sometimes society supported bad choices, but in the end I learned not to take hman kinds self determination for granted, everyone has the capability to be a rocket scientist or junkie. A lot of times it is determined by a genetic roll of the dice though at who you are born to. This is a waste. The most well off folks always seem to be the first to look down on others and feel that everyone else deserves less then what they are entitled too. Capitalism is barbarianism.
 
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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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Governments have shit all over pure "capitalist economies." Look up the Kowloon Walled City for an example. They can't control it, so destroy it. Central planning, from idiots who wish to think there is some order in the universe, fuck everything up. Stop central planning.

You missed my point, I'm afraid. You're viewing the polar opposites of free market and "central planning" as if either thing really ever existed in that kind of pure form. Those are theories, not reality.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,462
5,882
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In other words become an exploiter or be a wage slave? False choice. And how is one supposed to do this if you make slave wages assembling USB cables for example in Malaysia? You cannot compete. This is a faith based argument that depends on luck or inheritence. Even slaves have hope, still does not mean that the system is justified.
What fucking drivel.

Ignore.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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Sounds awfully libertarian... ;)

I have been a left libertarian for ages, ya know the Durruti, makhno, proudhorn, bakunin, goldman, luxembourg, Chomsky kind though. Right wing libertarians are newcomers and usurpers of a name much older then ayn rand that goes back to fighting with Marx himself. This is why I prefer the more correct term used worldwide for USA libertarians. Neo liberals.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpTouVHDVt4&
Don't fall for false revolutions.

Through stealing the name, deportations in USA around WW1 Stalin, Trotsky, Lenin purging, nazis gassing the black and red libertarian flag still waves all across the globe.
 
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irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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Capitalism sucks... less than everything else to date; and it probably will be the primary mode of economy until technology/expansion produces ridiculously cheap resources.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
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And bank execs would be taking home obscene wages and bonuses while almost collapsing the wold's Financial system.

Don't forget getting a bailout from the federal gov't. Essentially getting paid taxes instead of paying taxes.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
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No.

I have talked about buying stock for a long time, but my wife does not like the idea at all. Last time I talked to my wife about buying stocks, we ended up getting into a big fight about it. The stocks only cost 60 cents, but my wife was dead against buying any.

You Sir have a good Woman and are a lucky man...
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
Capitalism, although wholly uncool amongst the oh-so-hip circles, is flourishing in an unlikely place - China. The question I've been pondering the last few years as we gallop to socialism/communism will China in the next 20 years be the beacon for capitalism?
They are morphing from being a totalitarian dictatorship to a fascist one, Capitalists no way, hell they haven't even floated their dollar to get the best out of theirs.....Yet!
I reckon they will play that hand soon enough, along with BOC become international.............
 
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gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
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that's an oxymoron

The slobbering Zizek talks about that exactly, it's perplexing- he see them like slot machine junkies! Compulsive obsessives, always look at the figures and their equals/opponents in the market place!
 
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gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
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the question is, should it survive or can we survive it?

I think it died in the 80's personally, without seriously effective anti-monopoly laws and a non-corrupt government it was always going the way Marx said it would, a defacto slavery with lots of productive human beings put on the scrap heaps to limit supply- the cheap and nasty consumer goods given as a substitute for quality product that are value for money got drowned out by marketeers and profit grabber's.

Zizek talk's about making "them" feel "god like" to change their misanthropic ways so they do the best for humanity as a self-rewarding feedback for "them"- like an artificial altruism!
Classic, Master becomes slave stuff.......
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,497
349
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Capitalism is going nowhere.

Capitalism as an economic model is the closest as you can get when a system tries to mimic fundamental natural truths. This makes it self perpetuating in a scenario where there are only limited resources and great needs.

The problems with Capitalism you see is not capitalism itself, but rather the perversion of the model moving it away from the base of fundamental natural truths it was emulating. I will prove it here with various examples.

Example 1: One company gains a monopoly and fleeces its customers.

Answer : This is not the problem of capitalism, this is a problem of perversion of the market. If one company manages to gain monopoly, there must be a inherent problem with the market that prevents another company or companies stepping in to wrest the market share away from that monopoly. In a perfect capitalistic economy, the potential of monopolies existing is just temporary.

Example 2: A successful company illtreats its own employees and pays them a pittance.

Answer : Again this is not a problem of capitalism. Sure, capitalism's doctrine of the survival of the fittest and most efficient companies hold true here, but only upto the extent at the risk of losing the employees. In a perfect capitalistic model, employees are as much as entrepreneurs of their own skills as much as the companies of their products. So any man can find any job anywhere, removing the need to be subject to illtreatment or low pay. This shall force the companies to strike a balance between efficiency and employee retention.

Capitalism is what which made the West great because it in a way of its own enforced equality of rules for the players within a economy. Sure such rules are being perverted now, but thats not capitalism's fault, rather simple human weakness and stupidity. If we ever come into contact with aliens from another planet, I have no doubts they will too have a capitalist economy because capitalism evokes universal truths which extend beyond our own planet.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
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Small being the key word. ;)

Think you could manage it properly and fairly if you forced everyone in your city to be a part of that co-op?
WHAT IF THE REST OF THE SMALL OPERATORS COPIED HIS MODEL? not forced but saw personnel benefits in his ways of being just small. And what if then the corporates where held up to his level of ethical integrity?

The big companies make most of the profits, but do so little of the actual work that created the profit, we will dance like this until people stop spending, unify or start killing those who exploit them- here they stop spending in Syria they will end up killing them- because your big business is in selling guns and weapons(WMD).
 
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