Can capitalism survive?

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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
WHAT IF THE REST OF THE SMALL OPERATORS COPIED HIS MODEL? not forced but saw personnel benefits in his ways of being just small. And what if then the corporates where held up to his level of ethical integrity?

The big companies make most of the profits, but do so little of the actual work that created the profit, we will dance like this until people stop spending, unify or start killing those who exploit them- here they stop spending in Syria they will end up killing them- because your big business is in selling guns and weapons(WMD).

Late night of drinking, huh?
 

cave_dweller

Senior member
Mar 3, 2012
231
0
0
It is interesting to note that the death penalty for individuals is less controversial than the mere suggestion that a few corporations may have forfeited their right to exist. How many people does a company have to harm before we question if it ought to exist
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Can capitalism survive?

I just watched this it has analysis of so many of the concepts we see argued in these forums and gives one mans idea of how we could get a just society in the face of envy and greed issues in humans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvakA-DF6Hc

Capitalism in the U.S. has been dead since at least 1988

Has been replaced with Corporatism with is rapidly heading the U.S. to an end like Rome and so many Countries/Civilizations before it.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
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Terrible example. All around. You can yell fire in a crowded theater, you just need to be prepared to pay for the results of your actions if there was in fact no fire and people were injured in the ensuing chaos caused by your actions.

If you want to equate that to capitalism, then the banks which caused the financial collapse should have paid for their actions and gone out of business. But we bailed them out, propped them up, and now they're more in control and making bigger profits than before.

Capitalism isn't to blame, corruption and lack of accountability is.







Define exploitation.



You could say the same thing about communism in the soviet union....
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
Capitalism in the U.S. has been dead since at least 1988

Has been replaced with Corporatism with is rapidly heading the U.S. to an end like Rome and so many Countries/Civilizations before it.
Capitalism died quite a while before 1988. Chalk it up to Grenville Dodge, the inventor of astroturf lobbying, for inventing the massive federal subsidy of corporate profiteering we enjoy today.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
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Late night of drinking, huh?
Its nice to escape this rotten reality we(meaning the lower class, not you of course) have to endure.
From you I only see rebuttal, no real answers, just explanation....you talk about accountability, but fail to suggest an ideal to achieve it!
So where are going with your ideas....
Are you just another misanthropic, cynic that subconsciously likes the status quo?
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
Corporations are all evil and they must be stopped. We will all work for the Government. They will make it all better.......
 

Joepublic2

Golden Member
Jan 22, 2005
1,114
6
76
Corporations are all evil and they must be stopped. We will all work for the Government. They will make it all better.......

Megacorps and Megagov both dominate the US so it's literally the worst of both worlds. Decentralize the govt and hand more powers to city, county and state govts in that order and weaken the federal govt. Subsidize small business so it's competitive with the economies of scale of larger businesses, stop mass immigration which causes a huge labor surplus (wages plummet when there's even a slight labor surplus for obvious reasons) and put tariffs on anything foreign manufactured so domestic manufacturing is competitive once again.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
It is interesting to note that the death penalty for individuals is less controversial than the mere suggestion that a few corporations may have forfeited their right to exist. How many people does a company have to harm before we question if it ought to exist

Interesting point. Major corporations can make individual people seem small, wrongly. This is a societal issue - valuing individuals, not putting 'state' or 'corporation' above them.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Megacorps and Megagov both dominate the US so it's literally the worst of both worlds. Decentralize the govt and hand more powers to city, county and state govts in that order and weaken the federal govt. Subsidize small business so it's competitive with the economies of scale of larger businesses, stop mass immigration which causes a huge labor surplus (wages plummet when there's even a slight labor surplus for obvious reasons) and put tariffs on anything foreign manufactured so domestic manufacturing is competitive once again.

We don't have 'megagov' in the US. China does; the USSR did.

We actually have too little good government (and too much bad) in the US.

We need more government for basic research, education, safety net, economic stimulation (e.g., training, employment services), healthcare, and more. It'd pay for itself largely.
 

cave_dweller

Senior member
Mar 3, 2012
231
0
0
Interesting point. Major corporations can make individual people seem small, wrongly. This is a societal issue - valuing individuals, not putting 'state' or 'corporation' above them.

My favorite conspiracy theory is the one that says the world is being run by a handful of ultra-rich capitalists, and that our elected governments are mere puppets. I sure hope it's true. Otherwise my survival depends on hordes of clueless goobers electing competent leaders. That's about as likely as a dog pissing the Mona Lisa into a snow bank.
 

BoT

Senior member
May 18, 2010
365
0
86
www.codisha.com
My favorite conspiracy theory is the one that says the world is being run by a handful of ultra-rich capitalists, and that our elected governments are mere puppets. I sure hope it's true. Otherwise my survival depends on hordes of clueless goobers electing "competent" leaders. That's about as likely as a dog pissing the Mona Lisa into a snow bank.

fixed it for ya

My favorite conspiracy theory is the one that says the world is being run by a handful of ultra-rich capitalists, and that our elected governments are mere puppets. I sure hope it's true. Otherwise my survival depends on hordes of clueless goobers electing "INcompetent" leaders. That's about as likely as a dog pissing the Mona Lisa into a snow bank.

and as unlikely as it sounds it is very real. would you believe if the dog pissed the mona lisa into a cave?
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
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We don't have 'megagov' in the US. China does; the USSR did.

We actually have too little good government (and too much bad) in the US.

We need more government for basic research, education, safety net, economic stimulation (e.g., training, employment services), healthcare, and more. It'd pay for itself largely.


You have screwed up priorities (like most people).

You must get the rats out of the kitchen before you can go forward, otherwise your system is doomed to failure what ever you do.

Zizek talks about how you make those ultra-rich pigs change their concept of humanity to be more positive and less misanthropic.

Dave Harvey is more old school commie, sound softly spoken and coherent but he gives nothing new, just reiterates the problem in the capitalist system.

Italy will be the country to watch to see how this worldwide corruption problem will be solved.
 
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alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
12,665
3,064
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I think capitalism can exist without greed.

you're wrong.


Greed is the great destroyer, it lays waste to everything in its path. It is the destroyer of jobs, of families, and of lives.

capitalism can't exist without the same destructive results.


Regardless of what you have been taught, greed is bad.

no shit, who in their right mind would say that greed is good?

of course you are the one supporting and promoting greed here, oh the irony.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Greed is the desire to have excess. Greed is why we have electric light in our homes. All who like having electric light, raise your virtual hands and signify you are happy greed exists.

Low level greed is not a problem. There is probably a better word to use, one which means "a low level of greed". I just do not know what it is.
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,497
349
126
Greed is the desire to have excess. Greed is why we have electric light in our homes. All who like having electric light, raise your virtual hands and signify you are happy greed exists.

Low level greed is not a problem. There is probably a better word to use, one which means "a low level of greed". I just do not know what it is.

Only greed which perverts the system is bad. So otherwise greed is good.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
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And excess is what exactly?

Fraud and theft are bad. Greed is human.

Greed leads to Fraud and theft, its an unsustainable concept.
Envy is its invert, they are a systemic symptom.
That's why the maintenance of justice is paramount in any system!
Maybe that's the key to the failure of capitalism- it lost sight of what justice truly means.
It made exploitation a rewarded practice.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,601
483
126
Really it depends on the level of regulation and fairness.

You want the perfect small scale model of a totally Laissez Faire economy?

Go play a cutthroat game of Monopoly, by cutthroat I mean typical.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
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Greed leads to Fraud and theft, its an unsustainable concept.
I don't follow. You'll have to nuance your definitions before I give you this first causal relationship.
Envy is its invert, they are a systemic symptom.
That's why the maintenance of justice is paramount in any system!
Maybe that's the key to the failure of capitalism- it lost sight of what justice truly means.
It made exploitation a rewarded practice.
Nature made exploitation a rewarded practice. All other economic and political systems made it a reqarded practice too. The only difference is some other political-economic systems require one to obtain political favor in order to exploit. (Our current state capitalism also bestows many more exploitation opportunities on the politically connected too, of course. That much is obvious.)
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Really it depends on the level of regulation and fairness.

You want the perfect small scale model of a totally Laissez Faire economy?

Go play a cutthroat game of Monopoly, by cutthroat I mean typical.

If you tried to play monopoly using today's laws and regulations not a single house would ever get built.

Chance card: *Your housing project has been declared a wetlands by the EPA. Go to jail and pay $37,000 each turn until you bulldoze all of your houses*
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
If you tried to play monopoly using today's laws and regulations not a single house would ever get built.

Chance card: *Your housing project has been declared a wetlands by the EPA. Go to jail and pay $37,000 each turn until you bulldoze all of your houses*

That's a brilliant idea.
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
1
91
Capitalism has its limits. It works on general scale and short term in the purely academic definition of the economic dogma, but as soon as it gets too big and starts hitting other limits, we see the problems.

Capitalism is OK when it does not get to change the rules.
Capitalism is OK when there is still no dominant player (monopolies)
Capitalism is OK when it is not illegal to compete

The problem is, we get things like Monsato copyrighting a genetic strain they failed to keep contained, and then sued any farmer that was found to have "illegally obtained the strain" through natural cross pollination.

We get monopolies or controlling interest on futures and commodities like Oil.

We get leveraged corporate takeovers.

We get laws limiting liability to larger companies, lowering their risk and responsibility to the consumer.

"Capitalism" does not work because Capitalism cannot be maintained in its pure form. Like many pure definitions of socio economic and political systems, it has its limit states.

In combination with those other impossibly perfect models, however, you can get a working system. Key is finding a way to keep it when our Alpha Male complex demands something different.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,601
483
126
If you tried to play monopoly using today's laws and regulations not a single house would ever get built. Chance card: *Your housing project has been declared a wetlands by the EPA. Go to jail and pay $37,000 each turn until you bulldoze all of your houses*

Like I said it depends on the level of regulation and fairness.

lately we've been moving toward less regulation... remember Graham-Leach-Bliley?

So the example of monopoly was apt.

Never said that a central planning model wasn't as harmful.