California to investigate Mormon aid to Prop 8

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: brandonb
Just because its not recognized by the state doesn't mean anything. Its only an issue because they want it to be an issue. They've turned something trivial into a crusade.

I agree that it is trivial in some sense...so why ban it at all? Why not grant equal freedoms to every US citizen regardless of sex, race, or religion? This is an equal rights issue.

The bottom line is that this sort of thing means a lot to some people and there is no reason to ban any freedom which does not interfere with the lives of other citizens. It all seems fine and dandy when it does not concern freedoms that you hold dearly now doesn't it?

Also, I could use your exact words to describe how the religious right feels about the issue. They turned something trivial into a crusade of their own and it is only an issue because they want it to be an issue. Sound familiar already?


Also, why do you want to take those freedoms away from these people? Why do you care? How does it negatively impact your life?

 

[brandonb]

Originally posted by: Cerpin Taxt

And that's because you're an ignorant bigot -- plain and simple.

Thanks for your participation in this thread. Move along, troll! I never stated my opinion on the subject matter, so pull your head from your ass and wipe the shit from your eyes.

BTW. I support equality between gays and others. I believe the state should not worry about "marriage" at all. They should eliminate it from hetrosexual couples and give that "right" to none and place it back within the church or family and between the people involved.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Cerpin Taxt makes many good points.....just because he called you a "ignorant bigot" does not mean that he is a troll!!

Poor choice of words on Cerpin`s part!!

This is a huge issue from the standpoint that the proposition process has been used to take away rights from one group of people....

If this is allowed to stand -- then a simple proposition could be used to take away rights of other groups of people also!

Peace!!

 

[brandonb]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

You've tried this line of reasoning before, I'm not sure what the confusion is. The rub is NOT that you need to be married to be gay, it is an equal protection issue. If the government grants rights to some groups, then it must provide a valid reason to deny these rights to other groups or run afoul of the 14th amendment. As for your argument to eliminate all government involvement with religion, yes that would also be an acceptable alternative. I hope you are willing to forego all of your tax breaks, guaranteed rights such as visitation in the hospital, etc. in order to keep people from attaching the word 'marriage' to their sexual union however.

You may think that that marriage sanction is unimportant, but people tend to frequently underestimate the value of things that they have never had to fight for. Something given has no value.

As for your religion not being recognized by the state, if you're living in America it sure as shit is.

You may be right, and I have no problem removing the tax breaks from religious institution, there is alot of corruption there. I can't tell you how many little churches I see come into existance just for tax breaks. I know the Catholic church uses its donations for priests to house them, feed them, etc. But why is it exempt from taxes? Its basically income for the priest, and should be taxed.

The governments job is to provide services to people they are not capible to do on their own, such as defending the lands via conscription and building infrastructure. There has to be some level of management for the masses. However, allowing people to "marry" is not one of them.

 

[brandonb]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Cerpin Taxt makes many good points.....just because he called you a "ignorant bigot" does not mean that he is a troll!!

Poor choice of words on Cerpin`s part!!

This is a huge issue from the standpoint that the proposition process has been used to take away rights from one group of people....

If this is allowed to stand -- then a simple proposition could be used to take away rights of other groups of people also!

Peace!!

It happens all the time anyways. Affirmative action? When I went to work for Best Buy 15 years ago when I was a kid, they had me go to some government office to see if I could get a tax break on me because I was 18 with no money. I went into the office and the guy behind the door said "You are a white male, you won't qualify for any tax break." Do you honestly think things are equal or will ever be equal?

And before I'm called a bigot again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen elsewhere, the thing is, every group is discriminated against in some manner and will always be. Its human nature to distrust or fear others that are different than you.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: brandonbull

So the vote didn't go their way and now they are having the government harass people?

The First Amendment to the U.S. Consitution says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So, in addition to denying gays the same right to marry as straight couples, you would deny them their First Amendment right "to petition the Government for redress of grievances?" :frown:

The same First Amendment grants U.S. citizens, including Mormons, their freedom of religion, but the separation of church and state is a two way barrier. Religious organizations are granted tax exempt status in return for which they may not attempt to influence public elections and civil legislation. In this case, the question is whether the Mormon Church violated that barrier.

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

This has nothing to do with a vote not going somebodys way. It has everything to do with peoples rights being taken away!

How can a "right" that has never existed be taken away?

How can a state, let alone a nation, allow a group of BIGOTS to take away a right from another group of citizens that it claims for themselves and allows to others? :roll:

Originally posted by: brandonb

Gay unions are not critical to being gay.

Says you. Bet you're not gay. I'm not, either, but I have gay friends. Who the fsck are you to impose your value judgments on which civil rights are "critical" to others? Which of YOUR "non-critical" civil rights would you allow to be subject to the whims of others simply because they don't share your social values?

They can still live together, have sex, be as gay as they want to be. Thats not being outlawed. Is being gay mean going to prison part of Prop 8?

Just because its not recognized by the state doesn't mean anything. Its only an issue because they want it to be an issue. They've turned something trivial into a crusade.

My religion is not recognized by the state, I'm Catholic. Could I cry about having my freedoms elimianted because of it? What??? How does that make sense? Thats how I look at this who gay union thing.

Or better yet, if they removed man+woman unions? Would that mean my freedoms to marry my wife would be stomped on? No, I could still get married, in a church, live with her, have sex with her, have kids, and live as I normally would do. What does the state have to do with that?

Your ignorance is astounding. Your willingness to hurt others because of your ignorance is pathetic. :thumbsdown:

Under the CIVIL law, married coupled enjoy a number of rights, privileges and duties including tax benefits, visitation rights when a partner is ill and other financial responsiblities and legal rights, including the power of attorney to act on behalf of an incapacitated partner. Prop. 8 denies gay couples those same rights, privileges and duties enjoyed by other married couples, including those couples whose marriage was performed by your church.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Cerpin Taxt makes many good points.....just because he called you a "ignorant bigot" does not mean that he is a troll!!

Poor choice of words on Cerpin`s part!!

This is a huge issue from the standpoint that the proposition process has been used to take away rights from one group of people....

If this is allowed to stand -- then a simple proposition could be used to take away rights of other groups of people also!

Peace!!

It happens all the time anyways. Affirmative action? When I went to work for Best Buy 15 years ago when I was a kid, they had me go to some government office to see if I could get a tax break on me because I was 18 with no money. I went into the office and the guy behind the door said "You are a white male, you won't qualify for any tax break." Do you honestly think things are equal or will ever be equal?

And before I'm called a bigot again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen elsewhere, the thing is, every group is discriminated against in some manner and will always be. Its human nature to distrust or fear others that are different than you.

I don't think he was trying to suggest that, but the point is that while things may never be in a state of 100% equality we should never permit things like Prop 8 which go directly against it either. Seriously, how did it make the lives of anyone in America better? You said yourself that the gay people can continue to be gay and have their relationships so it cannot be the thought of stopping that which pleases people so what is it? All I see is it making things worse for those who are gay and wish to get married while doing nothing to improve the lives of those who are heterosexual and do not like the idea of gays getting married.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: brandonb
Here we go again,

Those who don't support gays are labeled a bigot, moron, and every other name. So much hate directed their way in the name of "eliminating bigotry." Wow! Lets run those people out of this country, because we can't tolerate their intolerance. Lol.

So we are only "free" to work, pay taxes, and jump on the liberal bandwagon? Nope.

Unlike Dave McOwen and his cheerleaders here in this forum thread. What makes real american's is to have a free mind and be ok with other people being different with you, and accepting different viewpoints and values, if you agree with them or not. In this case, the americans have spoken and didn't want gay unions, and if you disagree thats fine, but if your plan is to remove them from this country or to label them whatever names shows you aren't a true american.

But I don't expect you guys to understand that. You are liberal, its the opposite of free thinking. Funny, it was never that way in the past.

In the context of taking away rights from Gays, this post is ironic.


edit: HAHAHA just noticed you said you are catholic! now it all makes sense

Catholicism practically invented hypocrisy.
<---former catholic.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: eskimospy

You've tried this line of reasoning before, I'm not sure what the confusion is. The rub is NOT that you need to be married to be gay, it is an equal protection issue. If the government grants rights to some groups, then it must provide a valid reason to deny these rights to other groups or run afoul of the 14th amendment. As for your argument to eliminate all government involvement with religion, yes that would also be an acceptable alternative. I hope you are willing to forego all of your tax breaks, guaranteed rights such as visitation in the hospital, etc. in order to keep people from attaching the word 'marriage' to their sexual union however.

You may think that that marriage sanction is unimportant, but people tend to frequently underestimate the value of things that they have never had to fight for. Something given has no value.

As for your religion not being recognized by the state, if you're living in America it sure as shit is.

You may be right, and I have no problem removing the tax breaks from religious institution, there is alot of corruption there. I can't tell you how many little churches I see come into existance just for tax breaks. I know the Catholic church uses its donations for priests to house them, feed them, etc. But why is it exempt from taxes? Its basically income for the priest, and should be taxed.

The governments job is to provide services to people they are not capible to do on their own, such as defending the lands via conscription and building infrastructure. There has to be some level of management for the masses. However, allowing people to "marry" is not one of them.

Again, it's not 'allowing' anyone to do anything. The government is giving specific, measurable benefits to certain segments of society. If the government is to exclude other groups from these than it must show a valid reason for doing so. The government can't show preferential treatment without cause, and the 'cause' that's been given to keep gay marriage illegal is mighty thin indeed.

 

[MovingTarget]

I know that I might get flamed for mentioning this or simply get a JFGI comment, but how did the Mormon church do anything illegal? IIRC, churches do get tax exempt status, but only at the expense of not supporting specific candidates and/or political parties. "Issues" are still on the table, which this should fall under. I'm not sure if California has anything specific regarding this type of thing...

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
I know that I might get flamed for mentioning this or simply get a JFGI comment, but how did the Mormon church do anything illegal? IIRC, churches do get tax exempt status, but only at the expense of not supporting specific candidates and/or political parties. "Issues" are still on the table, which this should fall under. I'm not sure if California has anything specific regarding this type of thing...

I believe the idea is that there is suspicion of them hiding something and you do not hide anything unless you do not want it to be found. No one is accusing them of doing anything illegal yet. That is why they are holding an investigation.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: brandonb
Here we go again,

Those who don't support gays are labeled a bigot, moron, and every other name. So much hate directed their way in the name of "eliminating bigotry." Wow! Lets run those people out of this country, because we can't tolerate their intolerance. Lol.

So we are only "free" to work, pay taxes, and jump on the liberal bandwagon? Nope.

Unlike Dave McOwen and his cheerleaders here in this forum thread. What makes real american's is to have a free mind and be ok with other people being different with you, and accepting different viewpoints and values, if you agree with them or not. In this case, the americans have spoken and didn't want gay unions, and if you disagree thats fine, but if your plan is to remove them from this country or to label them whatever names shows you aren't a true american.

But I don't expect you guys to understand that. You are liberal, its the opposite of free thinking. Funny, it was never that way in the past.

Which is why discriminating against certain people based solely on their sexual orientation is decidedly un-American.

Think about it this way. What if Wyoming put a proposition out on their next ballot denying Hispanics the right to marry other Hispanics? Wouldn't you be upset about that?

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: brandonb
You may be right, and I have no problem removing the tax breaks from religious institution, there is alot of corruption there. I can't tell you how many little churches I see come into existance just for tax breaks. I know the Catholic church uses its donations for priests to house them, feed them, etc. But why is it exempt from taxes? Its basically income for the priest, and should be taxed.

The governments job is to provide services to people they are not capible to do on their own, such as defending the lands via conscription and building infrastructure. There has to be some level of management for the masses. However, allowing people to "marry" is not one of them.

Again, it's not 'allowing' anyone to do anything. The government is giving specific, measurable benefits to certain segments of society. If the government is to exclude other groups from these than it must show a valid reason for doing so. The government can't show preferential treatment without cause, and the 'cause' that's been given to keep gay marriage illegal is mighty thin indeed.

Agreed.

At the end of the day, this is just one of those things where we should not expect everyone in America to like it, but we also should not allow the government to have the opportunity to ban it either. It should not have been permitted to be voted upon at all.

 

[crothall]

It wouldn't surprise me that several religious organizations supported the campaign for Prop 8. I'm not sure what the repercussions are though, as stated in the law. It just highlights the main point of this whole issue: the state needs to administer state (read: not religious) privileges in accordance with the nondiscriminatory constitution.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Agreed.

At the end of the day, this is just one of those things where we should not expect everyone in America to like it, but we also should not allow the government to have the opportunity to ban it either. It should not have been permitted to be voted upon at all.

Yeap. Nobody's saying that you have to like gay people or gay marriage. I mean if someone is anti-gay I personally will probably find them to be a distasteful person, but that's my business. This is all about if a simple majority can vote to exclude a group without cause, and that's something that all Americans should be able to come together to oppose. It's against the basic principles of our country.

 

[BoomerD]

Yet another good reason why ALL churches should lose the "tax exempt" status that most enjoy.

Permitting people to take tax deductions for contributions to churches is akin to governmental support of those churches...and shifting the tax burden for those untaxed dollars to everyone else.

I can think of a lot of other causes I'd rather support with my tax dollars than the churces...

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
This has nothing to do with a vote not going somebodys way. It has everything to do with peoples rights being taken away!

How can a "right" that has never existed be taken away?

Humans have un-alienable rights except in the eyes of bigots and haters like you.

Real Americans will run people like you out this country.

:thumbsup:

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Yet another good reason why ALL churches should lose the "tax exempt" status that most enjoy.

Permitting people to take tax deductions for contributions to churches is akin to governmental support of those churches...and shifting the tax burden for those untaxed dollars to everyone else.

I can think of a lot of other causes I'd rather support with my tax dollars than the churces...

There is a justifiable reason not to tax churches I think. If you start taxing churches, then you're going to get the government going through the books, the business, the etc. of a lot of religious groups, and you're going to create the potential for a lot of problems. In that respect sometimes I think it's better to just stay out of the mess all together.

 

[dlx22]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: brandonbull

So the vote didn't go their way and now they are having the government harass people?

The First Amendment to the U.S. Consitution says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So, in addition to denying gays the same right to marry as straight couples, you would deny them their First Amendment right "to petition the Government for redress of grievances?" :frown:

It is a state issue not a federal issue (so first amendment doesn't really apply), but like you said they have every right, like in this case to petition their state government, which they did, if what the mormon church did violates CA law they should be held accountable

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Yet another good reason why ALL churches should lose the "tax exempt" status that most enjoy.

Permitting people to take tax deductions for contributions to churches is akin to governmental support of those churches...and shifting the tax burden for those untaxed dollars to everyone else.

I can think of a lot of other causes I'd rather support with my tax dollars than the churces...

There is a justifiable reason not to tax churches I think. If you start taxing churches, then you're going to get the government going through the books, the business, the etc. of a lot of religious groups, and you're going to create the potential for a lot of problems. In that respect sometimes I think it's better to just stay out of the mess all together.

And along those lines I'm a little weary about this investigation into the Mormon church. No specific allegations have been made public, so its a bit hard to understand exactly what is going on.

But the mormon church is clearly not the only church supporting the Prop 8 measure...I think our government would be wise to tread carefully here.

I guess specifics are needed to understand what exactly the investigation is all about.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: dlx22

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: brandonbull

So the vote didn't go their way and now they are having the government harass people?

The First Amendment to the U.S. Consitution says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So, in addition to denying gays the same right to marry as straight couples, you would deny them their First Amendment right "to petition the Government for redress of grievances?" :frown:

It is a state issue not a federal issue (so first amendment doesn't really apply), but like you said they have every right, like in this case to petition their state government, which they did, if what the mormon church did violates CA law they should be held accountable

The first amendment most certainly does apply. It is incorporated against the states through the 14th.

 

[OCGuy]

They are going after the Mormons because it is a much easier target then going after the minority population which is extremely homophobic.


Of course, go after the white people that ran ads, instead of the people who actually went in the booth and cast the votes. Silly libs.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Yet another good reason why ALL churches should lose the "tax exempt" status that most enjoy.

Permitting people to take tax deductions for contributions to churches is akin to governmental support of those churches...and shifting the tax burden for those untaxed dollars to everyone else.

I can think of a lot of other causes I'd rather support with my tax dollars than the churces...

There is a justifiable reason not to tax churches I think. If you start taxing churches, then you're going to get the government going through the books, the business, the etc. of a lot of religious groups, and you're going to create the potential for a lot of problems. In that respect sometimes I think it's better to just stay out of the mess all together.

Yep. Separation of church and state works both ways.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
They are going after the Mormans because it is a much easier target then going after the minority population which is extremely homophobic.


Of course, go after the white people that ran ads, instead of the people who actually went in the booth and cast the votes. Silly libs.

Are you trying the 'hurr hurr it's the fault of black people' line again?

I'm not sure if you've been paying attention to... well... literally every single election ever, but did you ever notice that when people oppose the policies of the Democrats, they attack say... Obama as opposed to attacking every single one of the people that voted for him?

Once you figure out the mystery to why that is, you will understand why those 'silly libs' are attacking the Mormon church.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
They are going after the Mormans because it is a much easier target then going after the minority population which is extremely homophobic.


Of course, go after the white people that ran ads, instead of the people who actually went in the booth and cast the votes. Silly libs.

Are you trying the 'hurr hurr it's the fault of black people' line again?

I'm not sure if you've been paying attention to... well... literally every single election ever, but did you ever notice that when people oppose the policies of the Democrats, they attack say... Obama as opposed to attacking every single one of the people that voted for him?

Once you figure out the mystery to why that is, you will understand why those 'silly libs' are attacking the Mormon church.

Oh i've already figured it out. They cant go after blacks and catholic Mexicans, because those are their base. They go after people out of state who ran TV ads.