California OKs Cap & Tax

[Craig234]

Exactly why "states'" rights are a good thing. Let each be the 'little laboratory' the Founding Fathers envisioned.

Look forward to seeing the economic impact of this for CA and whether the cap-n-trade system turns out to be anything much than cash cow for govt and a few of their favored toaddies who profit off of it.

CO2 is plant food. All this crap wrt MMGW is a fancy way of avoiding the obvious solution: Quit cutting down trees and paving over grass. (That's assuming a bit more CO2 is actually problem.)

Fern

We've led on the environment before, cleaner air, less emissions, better mileage, etc.

You're welcome.

 

[Darwin333]

The concept that mankind is accelerating or otherwise altering natural shifts in climate strikes me as something we cannot adequately prove or disprove. We simply don't have enough data.

What is certain is that there are natural shifts in the Earth's climates. Areas that are currently hot or cold, wet or dry will not always be hot or cold, wet or dry. We as a human society should be prepared for those shifts, but it should be quite obvious that government action is a poor tool to use in that effort, beyond ensuring that the consumer/supplier dynamic (in all things) can be maintained.

IMO, it doesn't really matter until someone can come up with a global solution to global warming and then figure out a way to force the rest of the world into following that plan.

There are billions of people living in squalor that would really like to have a better standard of living, things like electricity, running water, a real house, etc... The cheapest and therefore quickest way for those people to achieve those things is also the dirtiest. There are a shitton more people who have just achieved those things and they damn sure don't want to give them back.

How do we, while sitting in our air conditioned houses using our Ipads and laptops convince those people to continue living in squalor until they can afford to advance in a cleaner way? How do we convince China to stop building coal plants for its people and industry? India? How do you convince all of the non-first world countries to institute a cap and trade like plan? Furthermore, how do you convince them to not use this as an economic advantage and develop their countries faster?

If you can't, how does a single country, or worse a single state within a single country, implementing cap and trade help this global problem?

The only answer that I have ever heard that has a chance in hell of working is the use of nuclear weapons and I am not really ok with that.

 

[sm625]

Taxing the carbon cycle (ie the cycle of life itself) is the holy grail of globalism and socialism. Tracking and tracing your every move is the only way to implement a fair carbon taxation scheme. A group that has the power to track and trace everything everyone does is more dangerous than greenhouse gas emissions. That is a basic fact of society that the dumbed down people of today are obviously going to learn the hard way. People need to srop the guns, gays, and god crap and choose their side on this one core principal issue. The issue of how big and powerful they want their government to be. Their knowingly corrupt government... It is like asking how big do you want your tumor to be.

At any rate, none of that carbon crap is going to have anything to do with actual pollution. ie cadmium, arsenic, lead, carbon MONoxide, etc. There is going to be this huge trillion dollar bureaucracy devoted solely to sorting and compiling all the data on individual citizens' carbon footprints. That information will be funneled to the banksters so that they can use it to condition us for their next great multi-trillion dollar heist. Its so simple and obvious yet people just cant grasp it. Not only that, they embrace it like a pet piggy embraces its farmer master a week before the big pig roast.

That's why I think the liberals are generally more pathetic, because they are just so blindly stupified by this system they so trust. They dont understand that big government is and always will be a tool for the rich to empower themselves at the expense of the masses.

 

[Demo24]

Some of you seriously fail at understanding climate change. It's not necessarily about temps rising 2 degrees on average every 10 or so years, which although that sounds minimal has a significantly larger effect on the grand picture. Aka, more drought (have fun growing grain in the heartland of America), hotter water temps means difficultly for the species inhabiting it which in turn hurts the several billion dollar fishing industry, also hotter water has drastic effects on storms getting energy off of it, and of course melting ice means a larger than you would expect rise in sea levels. Which puts a lot of major areas around the world at risk.

However, the real issue here is Co2 and greenhouse emissions. These blanket the atmosphere which create bad chemical reactions up there from the suns UV rays, they also create a layer which prevents the air below from venting into space as efficiently which in turn means the world heats up. Lastly a large portion of them are absorbed by the ocean, which is raising PH levels. If you have forgotten basic chemistry a .1 change is quite significant.

Some of you seem to fail to remember what happened with the Ozone layer..yup, caused by humans and the hole is still very much there and growing. Same thing is happening with these CO2 emissions.

You can bitch and whine about the cost, and yes it is unfortunate, however if we don't lead the way then this will never helped. Even China is taking it seriously with a large number of green power plants being built, which contribute a whole lot more than vehicles do per year. Granted they have a long way to go, and so does the US.

However if you want to breath in some nice pollution, feel free to do so. For the rest of us I'd rather have a cleaner planet to live on.

 

[sandorski]

Taxing the carbon cycle (ie the cycle of life itself) is the holy grail of globalism and socialism. Tracking and tracing your every move is the only way to implement a fair carbon taxation scheme. A group that has the power to track and trace everything everyone does is more dangerous than greenhouse gas emissions. That is a basic fact of society that the dumbed down people of today are obviously going to learn the hard way. People need to srop the guns, gays, and god crap and choose their side on this one core principal issue. The issue of how big and powerful they want their government to be. Their knowingly corrupt government... It is like asking how big do you want your tumor to be.

At any rate, none of that carbon crap is going to have anything to do with actual pollution. ie cadmium, arsenic, lead, carbon MONoxide, etc. There is going to be this huge trillion dollar bureaucracy devoted solely to sorting and compiling all the data on individual citizens' carbon footprints. That information will be funneled to the banksters so that they can use it to condition us for their next great multi-trillion dollar heist. Its so simple and obvious yet people just cant grasp it. Not only that, they embrace it like a pet piggy embraces its farmer master a week before the big pig roast.

That's why I think the liberals are generally more pathetic, because they are just so blindly stupified by this system they so trust. They dont understand that big government is and always will be a tool for the rich to empower themselves at the expense of the masses.

Loony BS :\

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

CA has lost 32% of it's industrial base over the last 10 years...it now appears that they want to speed up the process.

 

[monovillage]

Some of you seriously fail at understanding climate change. It's not necessarily about temps rising 2 degrees on average every 10 or so years, which although that sounds minimal has a significantly larger effect on the grand picture. Aka, more drought (have fun growing grain in the heartland of America), hotter water temps means difficultly for the species inhabiting it which in turn hurts the several billion dollar fishing industry, also hotter water has drastic effects on storms getting energy off of it, and of course melting ice means a larger than you would expect rise in sea levels. Which puts a lot of major areas around the world at risk.

However, the real issue here is Co2 and greenhouse emissions. These blanket the atmosphere which create bad chemical reactions up there from the suns UV rays, they also create a layer which prevents the air below from venting into space as efficiently which in turn means the world heats up. Lastly a large portion of them are absorbed by the ocean, which is raising PH levels. If you have forgotten basic chemistry a .1 change is quite significant.

Some of you seem to fail to remember what happened with the Ozone layer..yup, caused by humans and the hole is still very much there and growing. Same thing is happening with these CO2 emissions.

You can bitch and whine about the cost, and yes it is unfortunate, however if we don't lead the way then this will never helped. Even China is taking it seriously with a large number of green power plants being built, which contribute a whole lot more than vehicles do per year. Granted they have a long way to go, and so does the US.

However if you want to breath in some nice pollution, feel free to do so. For the rest of us I'd rather have a cleaner planet to live on.

Damn, i've rarely seen so much ignorant misinformation all gathered in one place at one time, it took my breath away. You forgot the usual alarmist favorite of rising sea levels drowning innocent puppies and children.

 

[MagickMan]

Agreed but what I really wish is that people in those other countries would put their money where their collective mouths are and enact these polices they say are "needed". Polices which their own leaders realize would damage their economic viability to be able to compete in the world market.

QFT. Every time I hear some Canuckistani asshat go on about this type of shit I think, "why don't you jump in first, dickhead".

 

[Throckmorton]

Um really, last I checked their was no reliable weather record more than a couple of hundred years old maybe?(even then the collection of such data was limited in scope) Granted, we can make some limited assumption about weather patterns based on geological evidence.

couple hundred years spotty weather records vs. millions years of fossil record = same thing in your mind?

Ever heard of fucking ice cores?

And it's not "weather patterns". We are talking about global climate. Do you really not know the difference?

 

[fskimospy]

Ever heard of fucking ice cores?

And it's not "weather patterns". We are talking about global climate. Do you really not know the difference?

Already tried that one. He thinks that the difference between weather and climate is 'splitting hairs'. Not much you can do with the denialists, I'm afraid.

 

[MagickMan]

Ever heard of fucking ice cores?

And it's not "weather patterns". We are talking about global climate. Do you really not know the difference?

I don't fucking care! You all can take your environmental BS and stick in your ass. There's no reason for us to be doing this type of thing until we get our finances in order.

Metaphor: Tell you what, once we stop the ship from sinking we can then turn our attention to the pH balance of the pool on the third deck. Deal?

 

[Demo24]

Damn, i've rarely seen so much ignorant misinformation all gathered in one place at one time, it took my breath away. You forgot the usual alarmist favorite of rising sea levels drowning innocent puppies and children.

Your response was so informative that yes, I see exactly what I said that was wrong. Feel free to point out inaccuracies, of which there could be a couple as I wrote that quickly this morning and without double checking a few things.

 

[monovillage]

Your response was so informative that yes, I see exactly what I said that was wrong. Feel free to point out inaccuracies, of which there could be a couple as I wrote that quickly this morning and without double checking a few things.

How about I just do one at a time, your false claim of "It's not necessarily about temps rising 2 degrees on average every 10 or so years, which although that sounds minimal has a significantly larger effect on the grand picture." is easily disproven by a HUGE margin with the BEST chart in an earlier thread, or HadCRU, NOAA etc, they are all in agreement within their error bars.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Some of you seem to fail to remember what happened with the Ozone layer..yup, caused by humans and the hole is still very much there and growing.

The ozone hole has been shrinking since 1989.
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/cl...rinking-ozone-hole-could-speed-global-warming

 

[Lithium381]

The ozone hole has been shrinking since 1989.
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/cl...rinking-ozone-hole-could-speed-global-warming

lol

 

[monovillage]

Here's an article on the ozone hole (PDF warning)
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Ozone_holes.pdf

"Remember we first found the ozone hole when satellites that measure ozone were first available and processed (1985). It is very likely to have been there forever, varying year to year and decade to decade as solar cycles and volcanic events affected high latitude winter vortex strength."

 

[Demo24]

How about I just do one at a time, your false claim of "It's not necessarily about temps rising 2 degrees on average every 10 or so years, which although that sounds minimal has a significantly larger effect on the grand picture." is easily disproven by a HUGE margin with the BEST chart in an earlier thread, or HadCRU, NOAA etc, they are all in agreement within their error bars.

That statement was more in response to the others in this thread talking about fluctuations in temperature year to year, ie a natural change of temperature.

Here's an article on the ozone hole (PDF warning)
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Ozone_holes.pdf

"Remember we first found the ozone hole when satellites that measure ozone were first available and processed (1985). It is very likely to have been there forever, varying year to year and decade to decade as solar cycles and volcanic events affected high latitude winter vortex strength."

Ok, so my statement wasn't exactly correct nor was it entirely wrong either.

""Although the hole is somewhat smaller than usual, we cannot conclude from this that the ozone layer is
recovering already,” said Ronald van der A, a senior project scientist at the Royal Dutch Meteorological
Institute in the Netherlands."

"Spanning about 9.7 million square miles (25 million square kilometers), the ozone hole over the South
Pole reached its maximum annual size on Sept. 14, 2011, coming in as the fifth largest on record. The
largest Antarctic ozone hole ever recorded occurred in 2006, at a size of 10.6 million square miles (27.5
million square km), a size documented by NASA's Earth-observing Aura satellite."

Fluctuations like that do not = a recovery, I will admit I was wrong about it continuing to grow as it does appear to have stabilized.


--

Either way that Ozone hole statement I made was not for the purpose of arguing that it had to do with climate change, so much as humans can very realistically have an impact on global atmospheric changes.

--

Also my previous mentioning of the greenhouse effect was described poorly. The greenhouse gases, predominantly CO2, increase the amount of the suns energy, heat, that is absorbed rather than reflected back into space.

 

[monovillage]

TY Demo24, see here about flooding/drought/tornado/hurricane etc. Check out other posts on his blog for more in depth information along with links.
http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2011/10/are-us-floods-increasing-answer-is.html
http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2011/07/2011-tornado-losses-in-context.html
http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2011/05/when-hurricane-drought-ends.html
this one for content
http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2011/08/ink-blots-ambiguity-and-outcomes-in.html

 

[SparkyJJO]

I have the answer.

Plant a tree.


My parents and I planted 2 trees at their house. That means my CO2 and their CO2 outputs of our collective vehicles are more than taken care of

Stop yer whining, stop yer taxing, and go plant a couple trees (and then hug them, if you so desire) as that will do much more good than just taxing people. Except that planting some trees doesn't line the pockets of politicians :hmm:

 

[MagickMan]

Hell, I've planted ~15 trees around my property in the last 5 years, I'm set for life. I'll send a bill so that I can get my carbon credits.

 

[brencat]

However if you want to breath in some nice pollution, feel free to do so. For the rest of us I'd rather have a cleaner planet to live on.

And if you want to pay more in taxes to satisfy your guilty conscience, kindly move to CA. I'd rather keep more of my hard earned money, thank you.

(Pro tip: I couldn't give a rats ass if the rest of the world breaths mud. As long as my country/home/friends/family are not affected economically)

 

[Matt1970]

That statement was more in response to the others in this thread talking about fluctuations in temperature year to year, ie a natural change of temperature.





Ok, so my statement wasn't exactly correct nor was it entirely wrong either.

""Although the hole is somewhat smaller than usual, we cannot conclude from this that the ozone layer is
recovering already,” said Ronald van der A, a senior project scientist at the Royal Dutch Meteorological
Institute in the Netherlands."

"Spanning about 9.7 million square miles (25 million square kilometers), the ozone hole over the South
Pole reached its maximum annual size on Sept. 14, 2011, coming in as the fifth largest on record. The
largest Antarctic ozone hole ever recorded occurred in 2006, at a size of 10.6 million square miles (27.5
million square km), a size documented by NASA's Earth-observing Aura satellite."

Fluctuations like that do not = a recovery, I will admit I was wrong about it continuing to grow as it does appear to have stabilized.


--

Either way that Ozone hole statement I made was not for the purpose of arguing that it had to do with climate change, so much as humans can very realistically have an impact on global atmospheric changes.

--

Also my previous mentioning of the greenhouse effect was described poorly. The greenhouse gases, predominantly CO2, increase the amount of the suns energy, heat, that is absorbed rather than reflected back into space.

You are such a little flip-flopper. If the Hole in the Ozone shrinking isn't a result of our actions than how in the hell is the hole even being there from our actions? Also, it's not 2 Degrees every 10 years, it's around 1 degrees in 50 years. Get atleast some of your facts straight before you babble on with your scare tactics.

 

[Craig234]

And if you want to pay more in taxes to satisfy your guilty conscience, kindly move to CA. I'd rather keep more of my hard earned money, thank you.

(Pro tip: I couldn't give a rats ass if the rest of the world breaths mud. As long as my country/home/friends/family are not affected economically)

That makes you an evil son of a bitch. It's disgusting and I do not want to know anyone like that.

 

[brencat]

That makes you an evil son of a bitch. It's disgusting and I do not want to know anyone like that.

LOL. It's so easy to wind people like you up it's ridiculous. Look, I was lucky enough to be born in the U.S. where we can take plenty of shit for granted. Fine, thank you very much. Now do I have to be made to feel guilty I have it so good that I should therefore think of myself as a global citizen? Fvck that...

You libs always complain us righties are meddling in world affairs. Perfect. I choose to run in my own lane and mind my own business. Just keep your grubby mits out of my wallet.

 

[LunarRay]

You are quite right. It is real. The other week it rained and this week it is sunny. I am sure the climate is going to change next week, next month, next year, and for the next 10 years.



Why do we need to do something about natural cycles in the earths temperature?
I thought people like you liked nature.

Sitting in on a City Council meeting I was amazed to hear that the mitigation of erosion was contrary to Nature. And... we as a city should not alter the course of Nature.
There exist caves which threaten the bluff above and the homes there on as well as the beach goers should a bluff fail and crush down on them. The residents on the bluff wish to fill in the caves with concrete and other 'stuff' to stabilize the bluff and keep the beach safe for the users as well as protect their homes. Some argue that the home owners only want to save their homes and in so doing defy Nature... They strongly oppose filling in the caves.

I see this kind of thinking as similar to the Climate issue... Maybe there is a man made negative component and maybe the man made part of it all is so minor that any impact can't affect Nature's will. I don't know but what I do know is that it can't hurt to protect against what we MAY be doing and there may be collateral benefit as well...