California Drought: How Stupid Can We Be?

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rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
Wrong.

It involves your insistence on hanging out where you're obviously unwelcome because you're so fucking annoying.

Christ, you are dense. :rolleyes:

Right

And then to drag it into a different forum? All while admitting that you know you shouldn't do it? Just because he can't get any licks in there, so he hides here and takes jabs. He's like one of those punks that becomes a tough guy once his friends hold the other guy back.

Freaking worthless
 
Mar 10, 2005
14,647
2
0
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26124989

California drought: Why farmers are 'exporting water' to China

"It's cost effective. We have abundance of water here which allows us to grow hay for the foreign market."

Cheap water rights and America's trade imbalance with China make this not just viable, but profitable.

"We have more imports than exports so a lot of the steamship lines are looking to take something back," Glennon says. "And hay is one of the products which they take back."

It's now cheaper to send alfalfa from LA to Beijing than it is to send it from the Imperial Valley to the Central Valley.
 

Babbles

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2001
8,253
14
81
I live in the South Bay of the L.A. metro area and I know we have some water restriction recommendations, but I really haven't been paying attention if folks are really following them. At my apartment complex the lawn sprinklers only turn on around ~2 a.m. in the morning for just a bit, which seems fair and reasonable.

I just moved here ~7 months ago and I'm shocked that there really isn't serious move to make desalination a major infrastructure move. Certainly there is one here or there, but nothing too serious. I realize they are crazy expensive, but this is a fundamental need. Forget about people, but for agriculture and manufacturing tons of water is needed. This state has a larger economies than most countries - it can be done, it's just a lack of people getting their act together.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,542
13,791
126
www.anyf.ca
Isin't California near the sea? Why don't they just desalt water? It could practically be done with just the sun especially considering how hot it is there.

I don't really have pity for them though, they chose to live in a place that has no natural fresh water source and where the weather is inhospitable.

Though even here they do have water bans at times where you can't water your lawn or can only do it on certain days/times, but that's to ensure the water tower stays full in case there are fires. The fire dept needs full pressure for their hoses. Have not heard of such ban in a while though. They've been doing major upgrades to the treatment plant so maybe they just have so much excess that they don't have to worry anymore.
 
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natto fire

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2000
7,117
10
76
This is all fake, because I heard on this very forum that water is essentially worthless, and there is no distinction between salt or fresh water.

To the morons saying "just take the salt outta da sea, derp," you are similar to the folks that believe there is fuel in water. Dihydrogen monoxide is an excellent solvent and it's strong bonded compounds are usually locked in pretty well.

It would be one thing if we were green lighting high energy projects like fission and fusion, but unfortunately mW for mW, desalination is not quite profitable.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,542
13,791
126
www.anyf.ca
Can't you just boil it though? I thought that would basically get the salt out. Collect the steam. Or is there more to it than that? With the sun and heat in california it would practically be free to boil water.
 

natto fire

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2000
7,117
10
76
Can't you just boil it though? I thought that would basically get the salt out. Collect the steam. Or is there more to it than that? With the sun and heat in california it would practically be free to boil water.

Ok, seriously? I know Americans are not supposed to stereotype Canadians, but you honestly think that it is so hot in CA that water boils on a whim? Have you ever heard of latent heat?

You are describing distillation, by the way, and it is not energy efficient at all.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,542
13,791
126
www.anyf.ca
Ok, seriously? I know Americans are not supposed to stereotype Canadians, but you honestly think that it is so hot in CA that water boils on a whim? Have you ever heard of latent heat?

You are describing distillation, by the way, and it is not energy efficient at all.

Mirrors, lenses, etc.

Heck, you can melt rock with the right configuration. Would not take much to boil water.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
13,263
4,041
136
Isin't California near the sea? Why don't they just desalt water? It could practically be done with just the sun especially considering how hot it is there.

I don't really have pity for them though, they chose to live in a place that has no natural fresh water source and where the weather is inhospitable.

Though even here they do have water bans at times where you can't water your lawn or can only do it on certain days/times, but that's to ensure the water tower stays full in case there are fires. The fire dept needs full pressure for their hoses. Have not heard of such ban in a while though. They've been doing major upgrades to the treatment plant so maybe they just have so much excess that they don't have to worry anymore.
Inhospitable weather? Any other redonkulous statements you'd like to make?
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Isin't California near the sea? Why don't they just desalt water? It could practically be done with just the sun especially considering how hot it is there.

I don't really have pity for them though, they chose to live in a place that has no natural fresh water source and where the weather is inhospitable.

Though even here they do have water bans at times where you can't water your lawn or can only do it on certain days/times, but that's to ensure the water tower stays full in case there are fires. The fire dept needs full pressure for their hoses. Have not heard of such ban in a while though. They've been doing major upgrades to the treatment plant so maybe they just have so much excess that they don't have to worry anymore.

there are thousands of types of climates in california

the cultural and genetic diversity of california matches the climatic diviersity and characteristics of california

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_California

The Indigenous peoples of California are the indigenous inhabitants who have lived or currently live in the geographic area within the current boundaries of California before and after the arrival of Europeans. With over one hundred federally recognized tribes,[1] California has the largest Native American population and the most distinct tribes of any US state. Californian tribes are characterized by linguistic and cultural diversity. The California cultural area does not exactly conform to the state of California's boundaries. Many tribes on the eastern border with Nevada are classified as Great Basin tribes, some tribes on the Oregon border are classified as Plateau tribes, and tribes in Baja California who do not cross into California are classified as Indigenous peoples of Mexico.[2]



Precontact

Evidence of human occupation of California dates from at least 17,000 BCE.[1] Prior to European contact, California Indians had 500 distinct sub-tribes or groups, each consisting of 50 to 500 individual members.[2] The size of California tribes today are small compared to tribes in other regions of the United States. Prior to contact with Europeans, the California region contained the highest native American population density north of what is now Mexico.[2] Because of the temperate climate and easy access to food sources, approximately one-third of all Native Americans in the United States were living in California.[6]
Early Native Californians were hunter-gatherers, with seed collection becoming widespread around 9,000 BCE.[2] Due to the local abundance of food, tribes never developed agriculture or tilled the soil. Two early southern California cultural traditions include the La Jolla Complex and the Pauma Complex, both dating from ca. 6050—1000 BCE. From 3000 to 2000 BCE, regional diversity developed, with the peoples making fine-tuned adaptations to the local environments. Traits recognizable to historic tribes were established by approximately 500 BCE.[7]
The indigenous people practiced various forms of forest gardening in the forests, grasslands, mixed woodlands, and wetlands to ensure availability of food and medicine plants. They controlled fire on a regional scale to create a low-intensity fire ecology; this prevented larger, catastrophic fires and sustained a low-density "wild" agriculture in loose rotation.[8][9][10][11] By burning underbrush and grass, the natives revitalized patches of land and provided fresh shoots to attract food animals. A form of fire-stick farming was used to clear areas of old growth to encourage new in a repeated cycle; a primitive permaculture.[10]
 

rockyct

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2001
6,656
32
91
I live in the South Bay of the L.A. metro area and I know we have some water restriction recommendations, but I really haven't been paying attention if folks are really following them. At my apartment complex the lawn sprinklers only turn on around ~2 a.m. in the morning for just a bit, which seems fair and reasonable.

I just moved here ~7 months ago and I'm shocked that there really isn't serious move to make desalination a major infrastructure move. Certainly there is one here or there, but nothing too serious. I realize they are crazy expensive, but this is a fundamental need. Forget about people, but for agriculture and manufacturing tons of water is needed. This state has a larger economies than most countries - it can be done, it's just a lack of people getting their act together.
The billion dollar Carlsbad desalination plant is basically a test to see if it's feasible enough. There are fifteen other plants being proposed right now for California so if Carlsbad succeeds, we can probably expect many more within the decade.

Isin't California near the sea? Why don't they just desalt water? It could practically be done with just the sun especially considering how hot it is there.

I don't really have pity for them though, they chose to live in a place that has no natural fresh water source and where the weather is inhospitable.

Though even here they do have water bans at times where you can't water your lawn or can only do it on certain days/times, but that's to ensure the water tower stays full in case there are fires. The fire dept needs full pressure for their hoses. Have not heard of such ban in a while though. They've been doing major upgrades to the treatment plant so maybe they just have so much excess that they don't have to worry anymore.
...weather is inhospitable, what the hell are you talking about? California is as populous as it is because of the wonderful weather year round. No humidity, rarely goes over 90 or less than 60 for the highs for most of SoCal. Sure the Central Valley is basically Texas but people only live there because they have to.
 

natto fire

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2000
7,117
10
76
Mirrors, lenses, etc.

Heck, you can melt rock with the right configuration. Would not take much to boil water.

So you are either ignorant of how much water we are talking about, or how much energy is needed to vaporize such a large volume of water (even in blistering hot CA :rolleyes:). Of course it is possible, but using your idea of mirrors and lenses, the facility would have have to be ridiculously large to collect enough sunlight to be strictly solar.

Energy is not "practically free" anywhere, and if it were as easy as you say, do you really think it would not be implemented?
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
Water prices are already absurdly high.

I think folks here just have plenty of money to blow.

Teach the kids in school importance of conservation, the adults are hopeless. The drought is number 1,xxx on their priority list.

The last drought we went through wasn't at severe, but it appears to me it got a lot more attention locally.
 

FleshLight

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2004
6,883
0
71
Not sure you guys understand the magnitude of the amount of water used in CA.

Taking in just MWD (MWD imports water via CA aqueduct and sells to public agencies in socal) figures and not counting CRA or groundwater usage, MWD sold 1.9 million acre-feet of water in 2013. At 326,000 gallons per AF, that's 619,400,000,000 gallons or 619 billion gallons of water.

Converting that into million gallons per day (mgd), you get 1.7 billion gallons per day. A desal plant that produces 25 mgd will cost at least 300 million dollars and in the current regulatory climate in CA, that's after several years of pilot studies, environmental impact reports, and fighting the CCC, greenpeace, surfrider, sierra club, and all the other environmental groups that oppose everything.
 

Apex

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
6,511
1
71
www.gotapex.com
that's ridiculous.

There's plenty of ridiculous to go around here in CA. :)

http://naturalresources.house.gov/issues/issue/?IssueID=5921

300 Billion gallons (1 million acre-feet) of fresh water diverted into the San Francisco bay to help the delta smelt in 2009-2010.

These dudes:

DeltaSmelt-300x253.jpg
 

natto fire

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2000
7,117
10
76
Not sure you guys understand the magnitude of the amount of water used in CA.

Taking in just MWD (MWD imports water via CA aqueduct and sells to public agencies in socal) figures and not counting CRA or groundwater usage, MWD sold 1.9 million acre-feet of water in 2013. At 326,000 gallons per AF, that's 619,400,000,000 gallons or 619 billion gallons of water.

Converting that into million gallons per day (mgd), you get 1.7 billion gallons per day. A desal plant that produces 25 mgd will cost at least 300 million dollars and in the current regulatory climate in CA, that's after several years of pilot studies, environmental impact reports, and fighting the CCC, greenpeace, surfrider, sierra club, and all the other environmental groups that oppose everything.

Don't worry, Red Squirrel has figured out a way with "lenses and mirrors" to provide the roughly 4576.14 mW needed to use simple distillation to desalinate that much water. I am not even factoring in that it is California, and water boils more easily there, apparently.

Also, how could it possibly have any environmental impact, it's not like pumping 619 billion gallons of water out of the ocean in 24 hours could possibly cause any problems? Think of how cheap sea salt will get!

acre-feet of water, what the hell?

Not sure what your background is in water management, but I lived on a WWoOF farm that was headed by the mayordomo of the local acequia, and cubic measurements of water volume are actually much more common than fluid measurements. It is basically because they are more concerned with flow rate than static volume, which makes measurements such as liter, and especially gallon, archaic.
 
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T9D

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2001
5,320
6
0
Well the cities and people only use like 6 percent of the water used. So it barely does piss to conserve for households. Almost all the water goes to irrigation. And you be surprised at how incredibly loose that is. If you've applied for water rights you can about get away with using ridiculous amounts of water. They don't even have meters on most any of the pipes going in the rivers. They just suck out tons of water. There are insane battles for water that have gone on for a century between farmers and such. Between states and states and the federal governments, tribes, game and wild life, etc. It's a huge spaghetti mess of water rights and use and the obscure laws and rules. Which the actual homes is but a tiny minuscule of that. Some of these giant irrigators could barely change their use and would double the public water. Or change crops from a water sucking crop to something more reasonable. But it's all just a total mess of who gets what. And it's first come first served. So some farmers land from 100 years ago get's first rights to dump insane amounts of water on his fields then he's going to do it, it's use it or lose it too. So he's going to use it all.

So yeah go look up water rights, it's a mess.
 

natto fire

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2000
7,117
10
76
Well the cities and people only use like 6 percent of the water used. So it barely does piss to conserve for households. Almost all the water goes to irrigation. And you be surprised at how incredibly loose that is. If you've applied for water rights you can about get away with using ridiculous amounts of water. They don't even have meters on most any of the pipes going in the rivers. They just suck out tons of water. There are insane battles for water that have gone on for a century between farmers and such. Between states and states and the federal governments, tribes, game and wild life, etc. It's a huge spaghetti mess of water rights and use and the obscure laws and rules. Which the actual homes is but a tiny minuscule of that. Some of these giant irrigators could barely change their use and would double the public water. Or change crops from a water sucking crop to something more reasonable. But it's all just a total mess of who gets what. And it's first come first served. So some farmers land from 100 years ago get's first rights to dump insane amounts of water on his fields then he's going to do it, it's use it or lose it too. So he's going to use it all.

So yeah go look up water rights, it's a mess.

Agree with this big time. When I was in New Mexico I learned so much about a resource taken for granted in most of this country. I can't believe I was so lucky to find a farm in the WWoOF book that hooked me up with a guy who had been there since the '50's and taught me so much about water that I permanently fell in love with the desert and homestead lifestyle.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
126

Do Californians laugh as they drive past that sign plotting how many people they would kill for $1 Billion? Is California going to be the next Florida as we laugh at their out of touch with realityness? Should realityness be a word? The world may never know...nor care.