I congratulate you if you are "on-the-level" pro working Americans.
Just don't let Arnie or the Bush admin know. They'll try squashing you like a bug.
In their minds its radical (and truly anti-special interest) to be Pro American worker.
I congratulate you if you are "on-the-level" pro working Americans.
Just don't let Arnie or the Bush admin know. They'll try squashing you like a bug.
In their minds its radical (and truly anti-special interest) to be Pro American worker.
Starbuck1975
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2005
- 14,698
- 1,909
- 126
Posting at my level would have required your at least articulating some semblance of a point beyond spouting the usual, trite and quite tired anti-Bush rhetoric.
No, informed opinion is to go out and actually educate yourself on any number of political and social issues...rather then recite the predictably partisan slogans that may look good on bumper stickers, but have no place in mature and intelligent debate.
Then again, your avatar is a clown...I don't trust clowns.
Perhaps for Bush, but I don't think the same can be said for Arnold...being anti-union does not necessarily equate to being anti-worker...American workers will one day understand that unions no longer represent them in the same spirit as their original mandate.
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Posting at my level would have required your at least articulating some semblance of a point beyond spouting the usual, trite and quite tired anti-Bush rhetoric.
No, informed opinion is to go out and actually educate yourself on any number of political and social issues...rather then recite the predictably partisan slogans that may look good on bumper stickers, but have no place in mature and intelligent debate.
Then again, your avatar is a clown...I don't trust clowns.
Perhaps for Bush, but I don't think the same can be said for Arnold...being anti-union does not necessarily equate to being anti-worker...American workers will one day understand that unions no longer represent them in the same spirit as their original mandate.
My dear friend. You spout the most trite and rehashed glarp on unions that can be imagined. Business has spent billions propagandizing your mind and YOU have the gall to call others programmed. Hehe, it is comical and my clown is there so you can see who you are. You have been stuffed like the Christmas turkey. Unions are hated because union workers make more money. They are hated by fools that can't organize their asses sufficiently to bargain communally and by people who pay wages. Not a single facet of human nature has changed since unions first came into existence. Every worker is f@cked without a union. I myself, however, would never join one because I'll be damned if I'd pay a small dues to make more money. I am way too smart for that. Everybody should shoot himself in the ass.
Union workers make more money. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh please somebody save me. Union workers cut a bigger piece of pie. Oh my.
so you're still pissed off about the special election eh?
compromise? the last thing we need is the stupid ass legislators making decisions that benefit solely themselves to get reelected again. I have absolutely no faith in my representatives and it is only fair that people get some sort of control over the system (hence, direct democracy in CA).
California had a budget surplus during the booming years and what the fvck did the legislators do to that money? Like most people here, I believe that the election's timing was bad, and some of the proposals weren't exactly the best, but at least he's trying to change the system. I can't imagine why anyone would vote against redistricting, other than the fact that they're hardcore democrats and just want to see their party win.
I'm not exactly satisfied with arnold's performance, the very special interest he said he was going to fight against turns out to support him in donations and such. Still, I can't foresee democrats coming up with someone better than him. Who else doesn't take a salary to work as the governor? yeah, while you're at it, blame education on him too, because parents are doing such a STELLAR job disclipining their kids, and teachers are SO qualified that we should keep them around forever.
Starbuck1975
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2005
- 14,698
- 1,909
- 126
No, unions are hated because their role and function has largely been reduced to pissing matches over trivial or minute contractual details, all in the name of asserting their influence.
There was a time when companies exploited workers to the extent that no communication existed between workers and management...a time where workers had no job security or protection, with companies essentially able to hire and fire people at will...unions changed all that...improved working conditions...ensured workers could earn a living wage...and made them part of the bargaining and contracting process...I recognize all of that, and the purpose unions once served.
However, the most productive companies today have moved towards a more fluid structure such that workers are integrated and valued members of the collective team...workers who have been in a business for decades have a certain insight and understanding that management has now learned to tap into...and reward accordingly...if you look at any of the best companies to work for in this country...they all provide perks, benefits and other gestures to workers...the future resides not in the cultural divide between management and workers, but rather a mutually agreed upon and collective path forward that benefits all stakeholders involved.
I can name any number of instances where today's unions have supported or otherwise prevented the firing of workers who are worthless dirtbags, because that is what unions do...cases where despite their best efforts to provide benefits to their employees, the unions decide to strike, sometimes just to remind management that they can still exert influence...it is a thug tyranny of the masses mentality that simply has no place in modern day business...if you look at companies like Toyota, they have managed to strive, with high employee satisfaction, without the introduction of unions.
Workers should receive wages comperable to the skills they provide and what the market will bear...unions have, depending on the region and industry, inflated wages for job skills that are easily trained and replaceable...outsourcing would not exist as such an attractive alternative to many companies were it not for unions.
Ironic then that some of the best companies to work for on the planet are devoid of all union influences.
Having witnessed first hand how unions operate was enough to convince me of their limitations and flaws...not a question of programming at all, although a predictable response...you are running out of cards to play.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
only because they either have to retain highly skilled employees with high wages because they are hard to replace, or because they are foreign like toyota and need to keep the good will going to stay, and fear the rise of a union if they mistreat their workers. you pretend that employers would treat their workers right if unions didn't exist? you must be joking.
Starbuck1975
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2005
- 14,698
- 1,909
- 126
Unions are not nearly as powerful in Japan, or as politically powerful, as they are in America...the Toyota Production system demonstrated the value of integrating workers into production and manufacturing decisions, the benefits being higher quality and productivity...some American companies have taken notice, and attempted to replicate this system.
There are numerous stakeholders for any large company or industry...the incentive that companies have to take care of their workers is that some revolutionary and forward thinking companies have already demonstrated the benefit of treating their workers right...not out of fear for union reprisal, but out of acknowledgement of the collective benefits of such approaches.
Very astute observation. Industries which require mostly unskilled, easily replaceable workers will treat them even worse if there were no unions. Most of the best companies to work in treat their workers well (not so much because they want to, but because they have to), and therefore unions are rarely needed.
AznAnarchy99
Lifer
- Dec 6, 2004
- 14,695
- 117
- 106
if you live in california and watched tv recently for the past few months.. they were filled with anti-arnold ads.. not just one every few hours.. 4 or 5 in a row, in one commerical slot.
Aint that the truth.
Without unions, there will be no strong middle class. Every nation on earth that has a robust middle class also has free unions.
The weaker unions become, the bigger share of the pie management gets. I know lots of people in management who work jobs that plenty of people out there could do...and WOULD do for less money. Let the free market decide my ass, if that were true managment and other salaried workers would be taking cuts in pay at most companies. Heck I could run a company into the ground...and I'd do it for far less than some of these CEO's are getting........it's all about who has the power....and whether workers have any, or none at all.
Starbuck1975
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2005
- 14,698
- 1,909
- 126
I am no fan of the perks and pay discrepancies that senior executives make...in an ideal world, there would be open lines of communication between management and workers, with everyone's salaries and benefits linked to company performance...if the company fails, then everyone fails...no 7 figure salaries for CEOs...no poverty line salaries for workers.
Again, no one is disputing that unions at one time served a noble and very specific purpose...my point of contention is that in many cases, unions have evolved to become just as corrupt, manipulative and deceptive as the companies they were designed to keep in check.
Salaried employees also have to make tremendous sacrifices to achieve better jobs, and hence better pay...where unionized workers get to go home at the end of their shift, many salaried management, particularly middle management, are expected to make whatever sacrifices necessary to "get the job done." Working in a zero defects culture in some cases, where your seriousness as a manager is often determined by how many hours you work without compensation.
Most middle management salaried employees aren't exactly receiving handouts for doing nothing...in any large bureaucratic organization, particularly large corporations, you have people making generous salaries for essentially occupying a cubicle...isn't much different then the pay and benefits some unionized workers receive for doing a job that you could essentially train anyone to do.
Are all unions bad...I would guess not...can all companies be trusted to look out for the best interests of their workers without the presence of a union to keep it in check...probably not...is this culture of mistrust between workers and management counter product...absolutely.
Well unions have managed to strangle industries to death in the past. Right UAW is attempting to do that the US auto industry. Some the problems are management, some are not. But it still does not change the fact that non union auto makers put a car together with 25% less manhours than UAW workers and it results in a slightly higher quality product. This is not the only problem that the big 3 has, but it is one that cant be ignored.
if UAW wants to save jobs it had better work with big 3 to fix this problem, if it means a loss of job due to more automation. The current route is headed for no jobs for uaw.
I think there is a lot to this election, and much of it is that while the Evil Unions were airing their lies, distortions and fearmongering commercials, Arnold's people sat on their asses and ignored them, apparently assuming that a last-minute swarm of signs and commercials would bring people around. They were obviously WRONG.
74-77 were *No brainers* that should have passed with 70% or more of the vote. It's true that a lot of people thought of the election as unneccessary and a waste of time--mostly thanks to the lying Unions and their propaganda. By turning out and saying "No" to those props, they *guaranteed* that it was a waste of time. If they truly wanted that money spent to be *worthwhile* all they had to do was tick the YES box. They were too stupid to do that.
Frankly, I say to hell with California and it's citizens. I'm probably moving out of state to go to another school anyway, so it's neither here nor there to me. It's just sad and pathetic that the Unions and Politicians effectively told California's citizens, "Bend over, guys! You don't want Democracy or responsible government spending anyway!" and, like the bobble-heads that most Californians are, they just smiled, bobbed and went butts-up.
Some folks think, "We stuck it to Arnold!" No, people, no. Arnold has over $100,000,000 of his own money. He can buy a house anywhere on earth. He can LIVE anywhere on earth. If the economy takes a dump, his bills will be paid *regardless*.
You DID stick it to someone though: You stuck it to yourselves, to your friends, your children, your parents. Good job.
Jason
There you are with your LIES and PROPAGANDA, I see. Arnold DID NOT CUT EDUCATION SPENDING BY ONE DIME. He RAISED spending by THREE BILLION DOLLARS. In the original version of the budget the hope was to raise it by FIVE BILLION, but that proved to be impossible because CALIFORNIA IS BROKE. Morons like YOU can't seem to get it through your skulls that this is NOT A CUT. California spends more on education now THAN WE EVER HAVE. We spend more PER PUPIL now THAN WE EVER HAVE.
Arnold was NOT trying to silence his critics. That's a TINFOIL HAT conspiracy theory that only a genuine MORON would believe. Prop 75 did one thing and one thing ONLY: It made Unions ASK PERMISSION before taking money from members for political spending. It had NOTHING to do with silencing anyone.
Yes, he called the Legislature "Girlie Men", and they most certainly are. He never said a word about kicking their butts, stop exaggerating. As for the Nurse's Union, do you know how many they represent? About 60,000. You know how many nurses are in California? More than 300,000. The Nurse's Union represents LESS THAN 20% of all Nurses in California, and to arrive at the 20% number you have to assume that EVERY SINGLE ONE of their members agree with their DISHONEST tactics. I'd wager that not every one of them do.
The bright side of this election is that the public employees unions are now on the edge of bankruptcy. If Arnold's very smart, he'll put EVERY one of the important measures (74-77) on the June '06 ballot and push them HARD from January onward. Maybe they'll win, maybe they won't, but one thing's sure: The Unions will go financially bust, as they deserve to.
You talk of Arnold "working with the legislature", but we both know that's not what you want. What you want is for Arnold to BEND OVER for the legislature and do whatever they want--which is to say, do whatever the UNION BOSSES want. Frankly, I hope he passes 100% of the bills that the legislature sends to his desk. I hope he lists them on a website and gets on the news EVERY SINGLE DAY to tell us what the legislature sent, what it does and that he's signed off on it--because THAT is what you want. And when the state files for bankruptcy--as most of its largest counties are already on the brink of doing--I will just smile and enjoy the fact that YOU did it.
Jason
Ah yes, because political parties are now RELIGIONS, right? It's precisely DUMBASSES like you, both Democrat and Republican alike, who SCREW Democracy over, STAB the progressive cause in the back and work diligently to DESTROY Liberty at every turn.
You're a disgusting example of the WORST kind of human being.
Jason
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
You're confusing Arnold with the UNIONS. This election cycle, it was the UNIONS who LIED, CHEATED and STOLE to win.
Yes, the Republican party is 99% moron, but guess what? The Democratic party is 99% moron, too, and in California the "Democratic party" is also 99% SOCIALIST.
Arnold is the first PROGRESSIVE governor that California's had in more than 20 years. The hilarious irony is that the Unions, the Democrats AND the Republicans, who ALL worked together against these propositions, have fooled your dumb ass into voting for the ULTIMATE conservative platform: Maintain the STATUS QUO. Good job.
Jason
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
There was NO "grab for absolute power", you PROPAGANDIST LIAR. That LIE has been spread regarding Prop 76, and it's got NO BASIS IN REALITY whatsoever. In point of fact, 43 out of 50 states have laws similar to Prop 76's spending cap, and 6 out of those 43 states leave FINAL AUTHORITY in spending to the governor. Prop 76 left FIRST AND LAST spending cut authority to the LEGISLATURE.
Another fun fact you might like to add to your clearly tiny brain, Moonbeam: EVERY SINGLE ONE of the states who have these measures have a better credit rating than California.
EVERY SINGLE ONE.
Jason
The only STOOGE I'm seeing posting right now, sir, is YOU. You're a stooge and a whipping-boy for the Democratic party, just as surely as many here are whipping boys for the EQUALLY CORRUPT Republican party.
If you're going to claim that 74-77 were bad ideas, you'd better be prepared to back it up with facts as to WHY.
How's about you start now?
Jason
Where do you go to school at? I'm planning to move out of california for graduate school as well.
The election is over, you can stop with the LIES and FEARMONGERING.
You want to know who's been behaving like George W. Bush in this election? The UNIONS and the DEMOCRATS. You want to know who COLLABORATED to beat Prop 77? The REPUBLICANS and the DEMOCRATS. As usual, they're GREAT friends when it comes to keeping their own asses in power and keeping the STATUS QUO just like it is. And as usual, partisan jackasses like you sit here and PRETEND (and face it: There is NO TRUTH to your pretention) that your party is anything but a bunch of lying hacks.
Jason
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter