Bye, Bye Any Hope for Vouchers

[Doboji]

Well I'll rant on this for a minute... and I apologize if I'm repeating some of whats already been said...

The school vouchers proposed by Mr. Bush are just a tax cut for the wealthy incognito... it would not provide enough money for middle and lower income families to send their kids to private school.. it would only give essentially a tax break to families that already can afford the schools... which would also in effect pull money from the public school system... further degrading the already decrepit program.

We need to remember the objective of education reform.

It is NOT to make private schools more affordable to those who can afford it.

It IS to improve education in the United States.

To my way of thinking a school voucher program would only work if the Government said that all schooling would be free... paid for by the government... and thereby any parent can send their kids to whatever school they choose. Anything short of this and you degrade public school, and leave the poor children who still attend these schools out in the cold. And furthermore I'm not sure that our current taxation level would allow for free schooling across the board, and even if it could.. we'd end up degrading the private schools.

In short School vouchers are a joke...

-Max

 

[PG]

I see a lot of teacher bashing in this thread and I don't feel that it is really justified. Most teachers really try to do a good job but have their hands tied. When it comes to discipline, they don't set the rules. Someone higher up does that. The teachers either comply with the rules or get a new job.
Also, many parents today seem to believe that their kids are angels and can do no wrong and/or fail to properly discipline their kids at home. Therefore this bad behavior carries over at school. Of course, I'm talking about the parents who even spend any time at all with their kids in the first place.

There are a lot of other reasons why kids do poorly in school. Drugs, gang violence, etc. These issues are out of the hands of the teachers.

I almost forgot the fairly recent explosive growth in hispanic communities. Please don't jump on me for being racist, but they typically have problems in school because of the language barrier. This sure doesn't help scores in any test.

 

[Raspewtin]

"with a test approved by the teacher's union. That group is another big obstacle in the way of kids learning. "

i agree that unions haven't been beneficial for kids, but it seems many teachers are underpaid (i don't really know the figures) so it's hard to raise a fuss about it. at the same time though, private school teachers get paid much less than public school teachers, private schools often spend a lot less money with usually better results, so who knows.

"Lack of teaching social skills and low self esteem may have something to do with school shootings, though I doubt it, but those things are supposed to be taught in the home."

Ya teachers shouldn't have to be psychiatrists, parents, etc. But if some kids are suffering b/c other parents don't raise their kids correctly, I don't see how we can get around it.

"Doing that robs the kids that are there to learn. "


intersting viewpoint.

 

[Texmaster]

<< &quot;with a test approved by the teacher's union. That group is another big obstacle in the way of kids learning. &quot;

i agree that unions haven't been beneficial for kids, but it seems many teachers are underpaid (i don't really know the figures) so it's hard to raise a fuss about it. at the same time though, private school teachers get paid much less than public school teachers, private schools often spend a lot less money with usually better results, so who knows.

&quot;Lack of teaching social skills and low self esteem may have something to do with school shootings, though I doubt it, but those things are supposed to be taught in the home.&quot;

Ya teachers shouldn't have to be psychiatrists, parents, etc. But if some kids are suffering b/c other parents don't raise their kids correctly, I don't see how we can get around it.

&quot;Doing that robs the kids that are there to learn. &quot;


intersting viewpoint. >>




The problem arises when teacher's unions defend teachers that cant do their job because they haven't been trained.

 

[almostmakingit]

I'm sorry if you take this as teacher bashing. We were discussing the union, which is inherently in direct conflict with the needs of the public, and the students they teach. There job is to increase salaries and benefits, increase staff so they can receive more dues, and to make everyones job generally easier. Why anyone would believe anything different is beyond me. I'll tell you a little story: We had a teacher that volunteered his free time to help some students.. His own union representatives filed greivances against him saying that he should cease and desist with volunteer work, we don't do anything for free.. He ended up leaving the district so that he could be the person he wanted to be.. The rest stayed for the big salaries, and shut their mouths..

 

[PG]

I'm sorry if you take this as teacher bashing. We were discussing the union, which is inherently in direct conflict with the needs of the public, and the students they teach. There job is to increase salaries and benefits, increase staff so they can receive more dues, and to make everyones job generally easier. Why anyone would believe anything different is beyond me. I'll tell you a little story: We had a teacher that volunteered his free time to help some students.. His own union representatives filed greivances against him saying that he should cease and desist with volunteer work, we don't do anything for free.. He ended up leaving the district so that he could be the person he wanted to be.. The rest stayed for the big salaries, and shut their mouths..


I agreee with that. I guess I shouldn't have said teacher bashing, and after I posted I realized that most of the arguments were about unions.

 

[rahvin]

My question is, if education is specifically limited to being a state issue by the constitution why is the federal government even putting their hands into it? In my opinion education is something that is best left to the local school districts and states.

 

[Red Dawn]

It's not the teachers or the Teachers Unions that are at fault, it's the parents of today. If the parents would do their part the test scores would improve dramatically. Sending the litte bastards to Private School or throwing more money at the problem won't make a bit of difference. Until this generation of parents stops passing the blame off on the teacherts and starts doing their part we are going to have stupid kids. Just look at the GenXer's, a whole generation of ignorant wankers because of poor parenting! The only group of GenXers who are well educated are those who are immigrants from Asia.

 

[almostmakingit]

I heard somewhere that the American educational system is functioning below that of third world countries.. Maybe that is part of the reason.. Also the Federal government is already involved... Schools receive Federal Monies directed at specific programs, some based on constitutional issues, some used as a carrot, and some used as a stick..

 

[almostmakingit]

If I beleived that the parents were to blame.. (Of course it couldn't be a school without a cirriculm or books, that has $16,500 to spend per student, that couldn't have contributed to the failure) or children receiving A's that can't read.. Na... must be entirely the fault of the parents...they should have known an A really wasn't an A.. Then maybe these terrible non involved parents might become involved if they had to choose the place of their child's education. Perhaps if they had a direct impact they would value it more?

 

[Red Dawn]

It is not the Governments fault and it is not the Teachers fault. The blame falls squarely on the parents.It is they who are failing their children. If the children don't do their hoimework and if the parents don't care enough to make sure their children are learning something then how ion the hell is the schools do to make a difference.

BTW, it's not the A students that can't read knucklehead

 

[shiner]

<< It is they whop are failing their children >>



I agree...it is they whop.

The teachers are not totally unaccountable for this. I think you have to place a fair amount on them and the teacher's union.

Edit...DAMMIT Red....you went and corrected your typo and totally ruined it for me.

 

[jjm]

A little tip from a former teacher. How can you tell if parents are involved correctly?

If a student does not do his/her homework, that's a dead giveaway. And parents should press all teachers to actually check homework every day.

If a student does well on homework assignments, but badly on tests, it's almost always a sign that parents are too lazy to challenge students to struggle with their homework. Rather than guiding students, parents are giving them the answers. This is not always the case, but I found it to be the reason for the odd result in the difference of homework versus test results much of the time.

 

[almostmakingit]

Red I wish your name calling or ridicule bothered me......but sorry...

Sorry again.. Colleges are teaching classes in remedial math and reading.. It is the A students from some high schools in these classes... But now the parents or students have to pay again for what they were supposed to have originally learned.......

 

[Imported]

<< Bye, Bye Any Hope for Vouchers >>



Good.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< I think you have to place a fair amount on them and the teacher's union. >>

Yes if it furthers your political agenda. In truth though, when the RatpubliKlans blames thew teachers and the Teachers Union they know deep down they know it's complete BS. America, you can't handle the truth!

 

[Red Dawn]

<< ... But now the parents or students have to pay again for what they were supposed to have originally learned >>

And if these students would have paid attention and if these parents would have done their jobs as parents none of this would be necessary. Again, this is passing the buck. It's the parents and the students who are 100% to blame, not the teachers.

 

[shiner]

He's right about some of the people needing remedial classes in college being high school A students. I witnessed this myself when I was an undergrad and then when I was doing some undergrad teaching while working on my 2nd Masters. There were a lot of college freshmen that had no clue about some of the most basic of things. I taught a freshman history class the covered the U.S. from 1500-1850 and I would say about 40% of the class had no idea when the American Revolution was, who several of the Founding Fathers were, or that we had fought the British for independence (most thought it was either Spain, France, or Canada.) I would ask questions of the class and I would get a response of &quot;they didn't teach us that in high school&quot; far more often than not. I even had one girl in my class that had graduated with honors and didn't know this stuff. She came up to me one day after the semester and told me she had learned more in that one semester than she had in her entire public education. It's sickening really.



<< In truth though, when the RatpubliKlans blames thew teachers and the Teachers Union they know deep down they know it's complete BS. America, you can't handle the truth! >>



No Red....you can't handle anyone having an opinion different from yours. Especially when you are dead wrong.

 

[Thyme]

1. If the government paid half of the tuition, only some would be able to afford the other $2500 to go to the private school. In that way it is not all-inclusive and only really benefits the middle class.

2. Why should I, being Jewish, or any person of any other religion have our tax dollars spent teaching students beliefs that aren't mine, if not in conflict with mine. I have nothing but tolerance for other religions, but I don't want to fund them.
On similar grounds, why should pay for a school that can hire or fire a teacher; accept ot deny a student on the basis of their religion, race, or whatever they want. They can do that because they are private schools. If we, the U.S., and we, the tax-payers have vouchers, we condone discrimination, something that has been fought for the years in this country. Why should the government pay for religion and in some cases, bigotry?

3. How can you get around that this does not breach the seperation of church and state?

4. 351Cleveland, pumping more money into the schools is not the answer, but it can help. Spending the money only on reducing class size is not nessisarily going to help anything. If they did it so that it would split the classes into many different levels so that higher-level students could learn all that they could and lower-level wouldn't have to fight to catch up with things they could not grasp in the amount of thyme. Also, the money could be used for credentialed teachers with higher pay. It can be used for better facilities to make the enviroment more condusive to learning. What about before and after school programs programs for children whose parents are working hard to provide for them and can't be there? Why not use some money for Universal Childcare? Money can go a long way if it is used properly.

Vouchers are a lot short of a panacea for American schools and I'm glad they were shot down.

 

[almostmakingit]

Red..
Just because you say it a thousand times doesn't make it so.. Just because that is the union mantra doesn't inspire confidence.. I have many instances where the problems are systemic... I haven't even discussed how school board members are elected and why... Since you know so much and who is to blame perhaps you would wish to give us all an education... From top to bottom. You must know about school policies, education law, teacher disipline, union negotiations, bonding, fund balances, budgetary matters etc. etc etc. So I am humbled by your knowledge.. please continue....

 

[rmeijer]

Parents certainly pay a large role in the degenerate nature of public schools. Some parents make it a living hell for teachers both directly and indirectly. This erodes morale across the board and diverts attention away from learning.

Lack of funding is also a huge problem in many systems (hey, more money works for the rich towns so it certainly won't hurt the poor ones), especially w/r class size. Who in their right mind can effectively correct 120+ papers every other week, and still feel good about their subpar paycheck?

 

[AndrewR]

Viper, extremely well put, but it's &quot;spin&quot; while his position is &quot;truth&quot;. LMAO!

Semantics to the rescue...

 

[Red Dawn]

almostmakingit, it's simple. All you have to do is spend an hour with your child every evening helping him with his homework. This doesn't mean doing it for him but just over-seeing what he's doing. If the parents would do their part a lot of this extra BS wouldn't be necessary.

 

[AaronP]

well, giving more money to public schools isn't the answer. Clinton dumped f*cking billions and billions of dollars into them and it didn't do squat. The system needs to be changed before more money should be given. Pumping money into an ineffective system doesn't work. I think what needs to be done to make the system work is 3 things:

1. Teacher Accountability
2. Make a tougher curriculum for students. I've seen a lot of people coast through school, and come out the other end dumber than bricks.
3. Standardized testing. If you don't pass a certain test, you DO NOT graduate.
------------------------

my one problem with standardized testing is that it makes lazy teachers simply teach the kids how to pass the test and how to get the best score without actually teaching them the information they need to know. Pure memorization.

but there has to be ways around that.

 

[almostmakingit]

Red..
I ask you questions about how the system truly functions and you tell me again that parents are at fault... Perhaps you would wish to tell me how the 10,000 teacher applicants are screened when they come for a job.. Who actually gets picked and why.. Perhaps that would be enlightening?