rmeijer
since alot of our teachers retired recently at about $110,000 to $140,000 for the twenty, twenty five year mark I'll really have to check where the district longevity average is now.. We had alot of recent hires.. but our step increase is rapid.. and getting more rapid on this new contract we are in..
Now you see my dilema, and why I find it hard to believe that money is the answer.. apparently something else is wrong here...
since alot of our teachers retired recently at about $110,000 to $140,000 for the twenty, twenty five year mark I'll really have to check where the district longevity average is now.. We had alot of recent hires.. but our step increase is rapid.. and getting more rapid on this new contract we are in..
Now you see my dilema, and why I find it hard to believe that money is the answer.. apparently something else is wrong here...
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
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<< I have a friend who is a social worker that I gurantee you busts her butt more than any teacher every day and she only makes $22,000. >>
I sincerely doubt that. Teachers have one of the most important jobs in America, more so than any Social Worker or even any Software Engineer. But if they are going to be paid about the same amount as a Garbage Collector what makes you think that we are going to get the Best and the Brightest?
shiner
Lifer
- Jul 18, 2000
- 17,112
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<< seemed like a Basket Weaving 101 type of class that are usually populated by "Student Athletes". >>
The class in question was one of two that education majors were required to take their last year before they can graduate. The classes can only be taken by education majors. My point in mentioning the class was to show what kind of classes education majors have to take. While the rest of us were doing research, writing papers, and busting our asses the education majors were sitting at home designing bulletin boards and learning about "classroom layout." Can someone tell me exactly what that has to do with teaching kids?
I hate when people who are underpaid complain about people who are not.
Teachers are paid fairly.
Get over it.
Teachers are paid fairly.
Get over it.
shiner
Lifer
- Jul 18, 2000
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You doubt what? That she makes that little? It's the truth. Do you doubt that she busts her ass? Again that is the truth. She has also been shot at more than once by some of the "poor souls" on welfare when she goes to their house to try and find out why they haven't been looking for or going to their jobs. Why does she put up with it? Because it is what she truly wants to do and she thinks she is making a difference and $ doesn't matter to her.
I won't argue with you that teachers have important jobs. I agree with you 100% on that. What I will disagree with you about is that we have to pay them more. Maybe they do deserve more $ but tied to that new $ should be some comprehensive teacher testing and evaluation. We also need the ability to fire bad teachers without having to go through 9 kinds of hell to do it.
I won't argue with you that teachers have important jobs. I agree with you 100% on that. What I will disagree with you about is that we have to pay them more. Maybe they do deserve more $ but tied to that new $ should be some comprehensive teacher testing and evaluation. We also need the ability to fire bad teachers without having to go through 9 kinds of hell to do it.
28k? guess where u live......hicksville or whatever
where i live that would buy a teacher a nice cardboard box to live in. No one in their right mind wants to become a teacherr, pay is the sh*ts... big time.
as for private schools being better, that is totally wrong. what would happen if you forced private schools to take any student for free..like the public schools. they woulnd't be able to choose only the elite from well off familys thta erally cared about their childrens education they would have to deal with trouble makers and everything else.. their standard test scores would drop etc giving parents vouchers is a joke when the voucher doesn't cover the cost of a good private school.. a really poor person wouldn't be able to scrape up another couple k. besides, the private schools aren't hurting for students either.
where i live that would buy a teacher a nice cardboard box to live in. No one in their right mind wants to become a teacherr, pay is the sh*ts... big time. as for private schools being better, that is totally wrong. what would happen if you forced private schools to take any student for free..like the public schools. they woulnd't be able to choose only the elite from well off familys thta erally cared about their childrens education
they would have to deal with trouble makers and everything else.. their standard test scores would drop etc giving parents vouchers is a joke when the voucher doesn't cover the cost of a good private school.. a really poor person wouldn't be able to scrape up another couple k. besides, the private schools aren't hurting for students either."Starting salary for teachers here in Ok is $28,000. Tell me that isn't a living wage. I have a friend who is a social worker that I gurantee you busts her butt more than any teacher every day and she only makes $22,000."
And accounting, math, engineering and other high-demand graduates start at $35,000+, along with a signing bonus. You have illustrated all too well the major problem with teacher compensation. The pay is so poor that few of the best bother trying, or the ones who try end up burning out quickly because they can't make ends meet. A starting salary of anything less than $30,000 for a college graduate today is a joke.
And accounting, math, engineering and other high-demand graduates start at $35,000+, along with a signing bonus. You have illustrated all too well the major problem with teacher compensation. The pay is so poor that few of the best bother trying, or the ones who try end up burning out quickly because they can't make ends meet. A starting salary of anything less than $30,000 for a college graduate today is a joke.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
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<< . What I will disagree with you about is that we have to pay them more. Maybe they do deserve more $ but tied to that new $ should be some comprehensive teacher testing and evaluation. We also need the ability to fire bad teachers without having to go through 9 kinds of hell to do it. >>
If the pay was better then the applicants for the job would be much better. If I was capable of making $100,000 a year as a Network Administrator, why would I choose to be a teach for a paltry $28,000 a year? A career as a Teacher is a lot harder as you have to deal with other's ill behaved little bastards along with being blamed because the stupid little bedwetters haven't the smarts to read. You can't even discipline the little wankers without fear of losing your job.
shinerburke
your not too far from the truth... I will preface this with (in my district) I'll let you in on a little secret.. teachers get larger raises by advancing their degrees at taxpayers expense.. Not a major problem so far right?
Well guess who gives some of those courses... The local union officer.. Now ask if everyone showed up for the courses they got credit for...
your not too far from the truth... I will preface this with (in my district) I'll let you in on a little secret.. teachers get larger raises by advancing their degrees at taxpayers expense.. Not a major problem so far right?
Well guess who gives some of those courses... The local union officer.. Now ask if everyone showed up for the courses they got credit for...
shiner
Lifer
- Jul 18, 2000
- 17,112
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<< guess where u live......hicksville or whatever >>
You have to remember that the cost of living here in Oklahoma is pretty low. You see this is a very conservative state and we know how to keep the cost of lving down while also having a high quality of life.
shiner
Lifer
- Jul 18, 2000
- 17,112
- 1
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<< your not too far from the truth... I will preface this with (in my district) I'll let you in on a little secret.. teachers get larger raises by advancing their degrees at taxpayers expense.. Not a major problem so far right? >>
<< Well guess who gives some of those courses... The local union officer.. Now ask if everyone showed up for the courses they got credit for... >>
Same thing happens here....
almostmakingit - I certainly hope you have some facts to back up that kind of stuff. Otherwise, you are just spreading rumor and inuendo. If you have the facts, what are you waiting for? Lodge formal charges for fraud. Otherwise, you are engaging in, to use a civil word, hyperbole.
Edit:
ditto to shiner
Edit:
ditto to shiner
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
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<< You have to remember that the cost of living here in Oklahoma is pretty low. >>
Yep he lives in Hicksville. Still, Hicks are capable of having a "high quality of life". I would go as far to say that parts of OK probably have a higher quality of life than the Bay Area now that it's been ruined by the influx of out of state Carpet Bagging Yuppies.
If $28,000 a year qualifies for a decent wage where you are at then it's up to your Chambers of Commerce to get the word out that being a Teacher in OK is actually a good career move. If they are successful at doing that maybe the quality of education in the schools around OK would increase. There are excellent teachers out there, you just have to attract them to your school district.
The starting salary in District #15 in the suburbs of Chicago is $31K. With some experience and further education, that ramps up, but my opinion is that $31K in the Chicago area isn't very much.
<< Myth: Teachers are underpaid
Fact: teachers only work 9 months a year
Fact: teachers get excellent benefit packages
Fact: teachers start in the mid to high 20,000's after college, and gradually escalate into the 40,000 dollar range when they have more seniority. Not bad for 9 months of work.
Fact: teaching is not an especially demanding job. The good teachers make it demanding, but there is no incentive for them to be good teachers. A lazy teacher can make good money, have 3 months of vacation and still make 40,000 dollars a year.
Fact: Teachers make no more money than policeman and they make more money than soldiers.
Fact: whiney liberal teachers get on my nerves. >>
Bullsh*t on just about all of those.
Sure teachers only "work" 9 months at the workplace. During those 9 months, many teachers are at work from 7 in the morning until 6 at night. Many teachers spend the summers preparing for the next year.
Teaching is not a demanding job? Nothing is demanding if you're trying to be lazy. With the way teachers are paid, the only ones doing it are the ones who want to do it. They make the job demanding because they care about the kids.
Excellent benefits? In North Carolina this year, a large group of teachers lost their heath benefits for a few months. Excellent!
Our teachers get bonuses depending on how well their kids do on the end of course tests. This year, the kids in many schools did "too good," so the state said that they would re-grade the tests. The re-grade has no effect on the kids, but on the bonuses the teachers are getting. The reason? The state didn't want to pay that much money, so they're looking for a way out.
You know why the teacher's union is against vouchers? Because they hurt the schools. The teachers have experience in this matter; very few of the politicians (and their mindless supporters) do. I have met a lot of teachers in my time. Very few of them are the greedy sort. In large, they are a giving, caring group. They gladly spend what little money they do get if they think it will motivate the students.
Those of you who bad mouth teachers so blindly are really uncaring, unsympathetic jackasses!
What I have is inside Knowledge...that I have been willing to share... But in Pa... where the teachers union officials were caught on cell phone ready to blow off the porch of board members that didn't vote for a raise, surely you know what is out there to deal with....
Washington-The Supreme Court, in a victory for the media and its First Amendment rights, ruled 6-3 yesterday that a Pennsylvania radiotalk show host could not be sued for broadcasting a telephone conversation illegally recorded by someone else.
The majority opinion written by justice John Paul Stevens said the free speech and freedom of the press protections of the Constitution's First Amendment trumps federal wiretapping law designed to prevent the interception of private conversations.
The case dates back to a teachers strike in 1993 in Wyoming, Pa., when a telephone conversation between union officials-one of whom was speaking on a cell phone-was recorded by an unknown person.
A copy of the taped conversation ended up in the hands of Frederick Vopper, a radio talk show host who repeatedly played it on his show, broadcast in Wilkes-Barre and Scranton.
Stevens said the ruling focused narrowly on whether a publisher or broadcaster who came by useful information legally may be punished because the information was gathered illegally. The justices affirmed a lower court ruling in favor of the Pennsylvania radio host and others involved in airing a tape of an intercepted cellular telephone conversation between teachers union negotiator Gloria Bartnicki and the union president Anthony Kane Jr.
In the conversation, Kane complained about the school board's refusal to approve a 3 percent pay raise. "If they're not going to move for 3 percent, we're gonna have to go to their homes...to blow off their front porches," Kane said in the tape, which was recorded by a never-identified person who put it in the mail box of Jack Yocum, who led a group opposed to the union's wage proposals. Yocum gave a copy of the tape to Vopper, who played it repeatedly on his radio show.
Washington-The Supreme Court, in a victory for the media and its First Amendment rights, ruled 6-3 yesterday that a Pennsylvania radiotalk show host could not be sued for broadcasting a telephone conversation illegally recorded by someone else.
The majority opinion written by justice John Paul Stevens said the free speech and freedom of the press protections of the Constitution's First Amendment trumps federal wiretapping law designed to prevent the interception of private conversations.
The case dates back to a teachers strike in 1993 in Wyoming, Pa., when a telephone conversation between union officials-one of whom was speaking on a cell phone-was recorded by an unknown person.
A copy of the taped conversation ended up in the hands of Frederick Vopper, a radio talk show host who repeatedly played it on his show, broadcast in Wilkes-Barre and Scranton.
Stevens said the ruling focused narrowly on whether a publisher or broadcaster who came by useful information legally may be punished because the information was gathered illegally. The justices affirmed a lower court ruling in favor of the Pennsylvania radio host and others involved in airing a tape of an intercepted cellular telephone conversation between teachers union negotiator Gloria Bartnicki and the union president Anthony Kane Jr.
In the conversation, Kane complained about the school board's refusal to approve a 3 percent pay raise. "If they're not going to move for 3 percent, we're gonna have to go to their homes...to blow off their front porches," Kane said in the tape, which was recorded by a never-identified person who put it in the mail box of Jack Yocum, who led a group opposed to the union's wage proposals. Yocum gave a copy of the tape to Vopper, who played it repeatedly on his radio show.
I think everyone here needs to go spend some time in an inner-city school so you can obtain a fscking clue.
It's not really the teachers faults why these kids are not learning. It's the kid's faults, these people are complete and utter idiots. They talk all day about getting high and the party tomorrow night, and have no real reason for being in school other than their mom is gonna whoop their ass if they don't since she loses some of her welfare check. (yes, many kids told me that in school) How many of you went to schools where guns were found daily? Did it have metal detectors at the doors? Did you have to wear and ID tag around your neck while in the building? Did all the staff have two-way radios so they could call for help quickly? Did you have armed city police officers in your school at all times (we had 4 stationed there)? Did you see every DAY a major fight go down usually with some sort of weapons? Did you watch someone get arrested daily?
And more importantly, the kids in inner city schools have a complete lack of respect for anyone. The problems are so much more than "we don't have schoolbooks", it's in the attitudes of the kids.
The idiot who said public schools are the same as private obviously does not speak from experience, living in the surburbs and all (At elite squad hits again). I went to inner city public schools, inner city private schools, and suburban public schools (THE top of the line surban school). The private school in the inner city was FAR and away the better of the inner city school. It was arguably better than the suburban school, but I would rank them about the same. Inner city public schools are horrendous, teachers have to worry more about fights, and getting people to STFU during class, than actually teaching.
There were some VERY good teachers at the inner city public schools. (and some bad ones of course) Yet, they were unable to teach since most of their time was either spent dealing with idiots who should have never been passed up to that grade, or dealing with discipline problems. The blame needs to be put either on administration for not kicking all the problematic morons the hell out of school, or their parents for not beating the living hell out of them. Unfortunately because of this, even kids who REALLY want to learn, don't get the same level of education they could elsewhere (make no mistake, someone who wanted to learn could indeed do it. They would have no problem scoring on an SAT decently, but they would do much better somewhere else).
All in all, I honestly don't have one iota of sympathy for most of the kids going to public schools in the inner city. They don't deserve an education with their attitudes. Should they change their attitude, and go to school to learn rather than going to school to see who's the coolest toughest badass of them all, most would do quite well.
-Phil
It's not really the teachers faults why these kids are not learning. It's the kid's faults, these people are complete and utter idiots. They talk all day about getting high and the party tomorrow night, and have no real reason for being in school other than their mom is gonna whoop their ass if they don't since she loses some of her welfare check. (yes, many kids told me that in school) How many of you went to schools where guns were found daily? Did it have metal detectors at the doors? Did you have to wear and ID tag around your neck while in the building? Did all the staff have two-way radios so they could call for help quickly? Did you have armed city police officers in your school at all times (we had 4 stationed there)? Did you see every DAY a major fight go down usually with some sort of weapons? Did you watch someone get arrested daily?
And more importantly, the kids in inner city schools have a complete lack of respect for anyone. The problems are so much more than "we don't have schoolbooks", it's in the attitudes of the kids.
The idiot who said public schools are the same as private obviously does not speak from experience, living in the surburbs and all (At elite squad hits again). I went to inner city public schools, inner city private schools, and suburban public schools (THE top of the line surban school). The private school in the inner city was FAR and away the better of the inner city school. It was arguably better than the suburban school, but I would rank them about the same. Inner city public schools are horrendous, teachers have to worry more about fights, and getting people to STFU during class, than actually teaching.
There were some VERY good teachers at the inner city public schools. (and some bad ones of course) Yet, they were unable to teach since most of their time was either spent dealing with idiots who should have never been passed up to that grade, or dealing with discipline problems. The blame needs to be put either on administration for not kicking all the problematic morons the hell out of school, or their parents for not beating the living hell out of them. Unfortunately because of this, even kids who REALLY want to learn, don't get the same level of education they could elsewhere (make no mistake, someone who wanted to learn could indeed do it. They would have no problem scoring on an SAT decently, but they would do much better somewhere else).
All in all, I honestly don't have one iota of sympathy for most of the kids going to public schools in the inner city. They don't deserve an education with their attitudes. Should they change their attitude, and go to school to learn rather than going to school to see who's the coolest toughest badass of them all, most would do quite well.
-Phil
shiner
Lifer
- Jul 18, 2000
- 17,112
- 1
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<< Yep he lives in Hicksville. Still, Hicks are capable of having a "high quality of life". I >>
You can insult Oklahoma all you want but I would gladly take 10 Okies over 1000 Californians any day. The fact that you have to resort, as always, to name calling is indicative of both your intelligence and your class.
almostmakingit - A poor excuse for not doing your civic duty. Coward.
And I suppose that we should take all the comments people post here as truth as well. Give me a break. If you really think these people were arming themselves with bomb-making equipment, well then, I think you should make sure they are all fully investigated. The truth is, the person making the statement was engaging in the same kind of off-the-cuff crap that you are.
And I suppose that we should take all the comments people post here as truth as well. Give me a break. If you really think these people were arming themselves with bomb-making equipment, well then, I think you should make sure they are all fully investigated. The truth is, the person making the statement was engaging in the same kind of off-the-cuff crap that you are.
Actually vouchers are not the answer. The schools in poorer neighborhoods need to recieve more funding. They need to build better schools, with better learning tools, and more good teachers. I do fully support Bush though that teachers need to be tested.
every year we put more money into the puclic education system and the results get crappier and crappier. when are people going to realize that its not the fault of the school when a child doesnt learn, its the parent.
sending your kids to private school does help those kids cause it puts them in a better environment for learning cause they are surrounded by other kids that want to learn.
public school dont fail cause of lack of funding they fail cause the parents of the kids expect the teachers and counselors to do rear their children.
Urinal - I think something should be done, but vouchers, at least the plan proposed by GWB, would have done nothing to help the poor. The amount would have been capped at $2500, and with average parochial school tuition over $5000 and average private school tuition over $8000, poor familes would not have been able to afford the difference anyway.
its better to help some than none. the voucher plan would have had a good impact on education.
long beach, ca opened all their school to anybody in the district, you dont have to live near the school anymore. after they instituted this plan huge numbers of kids from the ghetto went to my high school and turned the school into a rat hole. if you provide 100% funding for these kids the parents will send their kids to "better" schools but nothing will change. parents need to realize that teachers and counselors dont rear children, parents do.
every year we put more money into the puclic education system and the results get crappier and crappier. when are people going to realize that its not the fault of the school when a child doesnt learn, its the parent.
sending your kids to private school does help those kids cause it puts them in a better environment for learning cause they are surrounded by other kids that want to learn.
public school dont fail cause of lack of funding they fail cause the parents of the kids expect the teachers and counselors to do rear their children.
Urinal - I think something should be done, but vouchers, at least the plan proposed by GWB, would have done nothing to help the poor. The amount would have been capped at $2500, and with average parochial school tuition over $5000 and average private school tuition over $8000, poor familes would not have been able to afford the difference anyway.
its better to help some than none. the voucher plan would have had a good impact on education.
long beach, ca opened all their school to anybody in the district, you dont have to live near the school anymore. after they instituted this plan huge numbers of kids from the ghetto went to my high school and turned the school into a rat hole. if you provide 100% funding for these kids the parents will send their kids to "better" schools but nothing will change. parents need to realize that teachers and counselors dont rear children, parents do.
I think I hit a nerve..... Are you telling me that it would be impossible to give away academic credits..... In NYC we had no show students...remember... What is it that is annoying you... the possibility that what I say is true?
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
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<< public school dont fail cause of lack of funding they fail cause the parents of the kids expect the teachers and counselors to do rear their children >>
I agree 100%. The reason I don't think Bushes plan for Vouchers is that they aren't enough. If they would cover the full cost of tuition for Private Schools then they might work.
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