Bye, Bye Any Hope for Vouchers

[rmeijer]

AaronP - these are all good ideas, but I seriously doubt that they would change much.

What really needs changing are peoples attitudes toward education and the school systems in general. Just read some of these posts! Such hostility toward teachers, unions, schools, funding, and so on.

Money talks. Plain and simple. Unfortunately having small classrooms with highly qualified teachers will do no good if hostility still exists between teachers, parents, students, unions, superintendents... etc.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< . Teacher Accountability >>

Most schools have that. Today that is just PoliTiK Speak for Blame the teachers for Parents ineptness.



<< 2. Make a tougher curriculum for students. I've seen a lot of people coast through school, and come out the other end dumber than bricks. >>

If parents would take an active role in the students education this wouldn't be happening.


<< 3. Standardized testing. If you don't pass a certain test, you DO NOT go on to the next graduate. >>

I agree 100%. If little Jonny has to repeat third grade three times you can bet that the Parents would get involved.

 

[AaronP]

Myth: Teachers are underpaid
Fact: teachers only work 9 months a year
Fact: teachers get excellent benefit packages
Fact: teachers start in the mid to high 20,000's after college, and gradually escalate into the 40,000 dollar range when they have more seniority. Not bad for 9 months of work.
Fact: teaching is not an especially demanding job. The good teachers make it demanding, but there is no incentive for them to be good teachers. A lazy teacher can make good money, have 3 months of vacation and still make 40,000 dollars a year.
Fact: Teachers make no more money than policeman and they make more money than soldiers.
Fact: whiney liberal teachers get on my nerves.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< I ask you questions about how the system truly functions and you tell me again that parents are at fault... Perhaps you would wish to tell me how the 10,000 teacher applicants are screened when they come for a job.. Who actually gets picked and why.. Perhaps that would be enlightening? >>

Hey I haven't the faintest idea how the teachers are screened. All I know is that if the Parents were to take an active role in their own little darlings education the magnitude of this problem would be a lot less. The rest is just the political blame game.

 

[AaronP]

luckily, I live in a fairly middle class town that funds its schools well. I would have no problems sending my kids to public school here, I went to a private elementary school, and public school from 6-12th grade here, and I think I had a good education.

However, if some public schools are as bad as I hear, I wouldn't waste one minute to send my kid to a good private school. Probably a catholic school, and I'm not even catholic! (I used to be though)

If our local public high school was anything like Boston Public, then I most certainly would send my kid to private school.

 

[rmeijer]

<<Who actually gets picked and why.. >>

Typically it is based on experience and recommendations. Parents are often involved in the process, but are by no means central. While potential collegues and bosses do the initial interviewing, the superintendant has the last say. The process is similar to most businesses... the superintendant typically makes decisions that are more politically attuned.

 

[jjm]

AaronP:

Myth: Teachers are underpaid
Fact: teachers only work 9 months a year

Since they get paid for nine months of work, I guess it's good they don't have to pay rent, mortgages, utilities, etc. for 12 months. Oh, wait a minute, they do.

I love to see the shallow thought when someone tries this argument. It's just too easy.

Parent involvement is critical to student success. To a large degree, it is even more critical than the quality of the teacher. Students are introduced to concepts in the classroom. They learn how to use them and apply them by struggling with homework assignments. If parents are not setting their children on a good work ethic with homework, the children are doomed to fail. Unless, of course, you think that these children will spend the rest of their working lives just pushing a button or having bosses stand over them on every task. Children learn the work ethic early. It's the parents that need to drill them. Otherwise, it's hopeless.

 

[almostmakingit]

Aaron..

I agree.. but

Some schools are funded well and have chosen not to do the right thing by the children.. That was the whole rational for choice.. What I don't understand is the perceived threat from vouchers.. Are the number of failing public schools so great? as to cause mass exodus? Are these the uncaring uninvolved parents removing their children?

 

[jjm]

As I said before, vouchers may work, as long as they pay nearly all the cost. Anything less is just a poor excuse to subsidize the cost of people who already have children in private schools. Whether the after-voucher cost is $2500 or $5000, people of lower economic means can not afford private schools. Only a 100% subsidy would give these children any meaningfull chance of escape. Are you willing to surrender your tax cut (gimme, gimme, gimme) for that?

 

[almostmakingit]

rmeijer

<<Who actually gets picked and why.. >>

Typically it is based on experience and recommendations. Parents are often involved in the process, but are by no means central. While potential collegues and bosses do the initial interviewing, the superintendant has the last say. The process is similar to most businesses... the superintendant typically makes decisions that are more politically attuned


Politically attuned is the key..

In my district. the superintendents contract is renewed by board members

these board members have family and friends that want jobs in the district.. one favor here another favor there and the better teacher doesn't get the job.. the superintendent only has the last say on who to recommend. the board has the last say on if that person gets hired..

 

[almostmakingit]

jjm...

I agree.. it should be for everyone.. All children deserve the same opportunity... And yes I would have sacrificed my tax cut gimme for that..

 

[bigd480]

regardless of why schools suck, the only way to make sure your child doesn't get affected as much is by being actively involved in their education... basically assume that their school isn't doing jack for them and try to supplement their education as much as possible...

in HS my freshman class was about 1200 ppl and we graduated 836... many ppl would say that the school is failing but there are still kids that graduate and go on to Ivy's... it all depends on how much your child puts into it, and that depends on how much you teach them to value their education...

 

[Capn]

Parents should be more involved and we all know that. However, politicians don't win elections by telling parents they aren't doing their work. Isn't the government supposed to solve all our problems anyway?

 

[shiner]

<< Since they get paid for nine months of work, I guess it's good they don't have to pay rent, mortgages, utilities, etc. for 12 months. Oh, wait a minute, they do. >>



Ummmm....don't know about elsewhere but here in Oklahoma the teachers that I know get paid every month, not just during the 9 months they are teaching. Nice try though...




<< Most schools have that. Today that is just PoliTiK Speak for Blame the teachers for Parents ineptness. >>



Most schools have that? I highly doubt it. If they do it's probably something that was agreed to by the union. It's damn near impossible to fire a teacher unless they are sleeping with a student or something.

I agree with you that parents share some of the blame but they alone are not responsible. We pay teachers to do just that....TEACH. Sadly we have a lot of teachers that picked that profession simply because it was easy to get a teaching degree (I have a friend that one semester in college she had a class that their entire semester project was designing a bulletin board for a classroom. That was it, they went to class for 3 days out of the entire semester, the first day, one day 1/2 way through, and then the last day of the semester so they could turn in their bulletin board) and don't really care about teaching kids. Then you have the teachers union protecting their members from any kind of REAL accountability and making it difficult to fire a bad teacher. That is a fact my friend.

 

[glenn1]

Anyone happen to notice that one of the 3 Democrats voting for the voucher bill was none other than former VP candidate Joseph Lieberman? Who'd have thunk it... I guess that politics does make for some strange bedfellows.

 

[almostmakingit]

What troubles me is that Bill Clinton used to support vouchers as a way to help children and reform education.. At one time his scholarly mind came to that conclusion.. What happened???????????????????????????????????????????

 

[Red Dawn]

<< However, politicians don't win elections by telling parents they aren't doing their work. >>

Exactly. Like I said, Americans can't handle the truth.




<< I have a friend that one semester in college she had a class that their entire semester project was designing a bulletin board for a classroom >>

Sounds like Basket Weaving 101. Without such classes, how would universities like OU, Alabama, USC and UCLA ever have great football teams?

 

[rmeijer]

In terms of teacher salaries - it is a matter of supply and demand. On one hand folks are saying we have crappy/semi-intelligent teachers, while on the other hand they are saying that teachers aren't underpaid. Well, if you want better teachers, you got to pay them more. Simple economics. The very fact that the best and brightest don't want to teach, or if they do get burned out quickly, indicates to me that teachers are not paid enough.

How many jobs require 6 hours of intense pressure to discipline, educate, orate, entertain, mediate, placate... then after the 2+ hours of meetings, then after the 2+ hours of preparation, then after the 3+ hours of correcting, they can rest knowing that no one gave a sh*t. Would you want to do that for $20K your first year on the job? or for $40K after working there 10 years?

 

[bigd480]

<< Exactly. Like I said, Americans can't handle the truth. >>

ditto.


<< Sounds like Basket Weaving 101. Without such classes, how would universities like OU, Alabama, USC and UCLA ever have great football teams? >>

don't forget Texas A&amp;M - oh wait, they don't have a great football team...

 

[almostmakingit]

We had the best and the brightest come to our district for a job, but alas the board members family and friends got it.... Like I said we have one of the highest teacher avgs in the state of NY.. Our median, or was that the mean, I forget which statistic hides the largest fluctuations, anyhow it's in the mid $70,000 range.. not including benefits worth $20,000 to $30,000.
Contractually they teach not more than five 40 minute periods a day.. 180 days for the year, and yes they are paid for the summer.. They get every holiday off, personal days, sick days, stipends for any additional work including plays and such.. Really not a bad job.. It's not like being in a coal mine or something...

 

[shiner]

<< Sounds like Basket Weaving 101. Without such classes, how would universities like OU, Alabama, USC and UCLA ever have great football teams? >>



It was an education class you ass....and guess what...it wasn't at ANY of those universities. Oh...before you start running down OU I suggest you take a look at the fact that per capita they have the highest number of Merit Scholars among public universities in the U.S.

 

[rmeijer]

<<anyhow it's in the mid $70,000 range.. not including benefits worth $20,000 to $30,000>>

If more towns were like that, then I am sure there would be more qualified folks lining up to teach. I wonder what the median number of years the teachers have been teaching. My guess would be around 20 years.

It sucks that your town is rift with politics. Not surprising with kinds of salaries like that...

Mind you, even if there are 5 classes at 40 minutes, there are still time between classes that they have to monitor, in addition to probably hall duty/study hall or (god forbid) lunch duty... Unless you taught (try Eighth grade English) you probably shouldn't pass judgement as to whether it is cushy or not. As for getting paid over the summer, I think most teachers have the option to get paid throughout the year or just over the nine months.... but clearly the salary is for the nine months only. It is said that without the months off, you wouldn't get anyone to teach - it is way to stressful.

 

[bigd480]

UT has most national merit scholars total, after Harvard...

 

[jjm]

Nice try, shinerburke, but you are attempting to rationalize the original point made by AaronP. His post makes it clear that he thinks these people get a great salary for &quot;only 9 months&quot; work. Whether or not they actually get paid on a 12-month pay cycle has no bearing on the point I made in response. To make it plainly obvious, if communities want professionals in these positions, they need to pay them an annual living wage, even if they only &quot;work 9 months.&quot; I dispute the suggestion that they only work nine months as well, but that's another issue.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< It was an education class you ass....and guess what...it wasn't at ANY of those universities. Oh...before you start running down OU I suggest you take a look at the fact that per capita they have the highest number of Merit Scholars among public universities in the U.S. >>

I never said that any of the Schools were on the bottom of the barrel when it came to education you ass. I was just commenting that the class you mentioned seemed like a Basket Weaving 101 type of class that are usually populated by &quot;Student Athletes&quot;. Without those types of Classes, brain dead fsckwads like Brian Bosworth would never have been able to keep their GPA high enough to be able to play at OU under Geniuses Barry Switzer.