Bushs Military Record in Question . . . Deeply

[Gaard]

White House releases Bush's military payroll records

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The White House released payroll records Tuesday it said demonstrate that President Bush fulfilled his obligations to the Texas Air National Guard in the early 1970s, hoping to defuse lingering election-year questions about the president's service.

"These documents make it very clear that the president of the United States fulfilled his duties," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said. "When you serve, you are paid for that service, and these documents outline the day he was paid."

But under questioning from reporters, McClellan said the records do not specifically show that Bush reported for Guard duty in Alabama, where he spent much of 1972 working on a Senate campaign. And he said the White House has been unable to locate anyone who remembers serving with Bush during that period.


I have to admit, I'm having a hard time following this. It's pretty complicated to me...the fact that I'm not a vet probably doesn't help. I guess I'm just naturally suspicious because of the overstatements/lies in his book regarding his Guard sevice...coupled with the lack of documentation confirming his claims. Could those who have served comment on whether it's usually this difficult to locate documantation verifying service dates?




McClellan said the payroll records were recently discovered at the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Colorado.

co·in·ci·dence ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-ns-dns, -dns)
n.

• The state or fact of occupying the same relative position or area in space.

• A sequence of events that although accidental seems to have been planned or arranged.

 

[digitalsm]

Everyone says Bush got special treatment.

Clinton used connections to dodge the draft. He used his connections to get is induction delayed, then he skipped the country to England. While he was in England his incduction came and went. He came back to the states, and made another deal, in which he was supposed to stay state side and do RoTC at the University of Arkansas. He didnt stay in Arkansas, he went back to England.

Clinton WAS a draft dodger. There is no denying that.
Dean WAS a draft dodger. There is no denying that.

Bush fulfilled his obligations. All be it, he likely did get special treatment, much like Al Gore Jr being part of the military press in vietnam instead of actually being anywhere near the frontline. Bush fulfilled his obligations, meet the requirements of an honorable discharge. And hes not the only one that got an early out of service, it was quite common then, and its still quite common today.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: wirelessenabled
It would be interesting to find out how many guys got trained in fighter jets only to never fly on active duty.

The taxpayers spent big bucks training Bush and got nothing in return.

I also had friends/family who tried to get into the Guard with no success. I don't know anyone who got in, let alone got in the day they applied. I do know lots of folks who went off to Vietnam involuntarily including two of my brothers. Of course I bet all the guys who showed up at the Texas Guard office on that day were immediately sworn in

I don't begrudge Bush wanting to escape Vietnam, almost everybody did. The problem I have is that he made the implicit deal by going in to the Guard that he would serve his time as directed. After getting the special deal Bush wouldn't even uphold his end. This is the guy who is bringing "Dignity and Honor" to the White House?:Q

Ultimately he did fulfull his obligations.

 

[Gaard]

Take the poll...don't forget to view the results.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: digitalsm
Everyone says Bush got special treatment.

Clinton used connections to dodge the draft. He used his connections to get is induction delayed, then he skipped the country to England. While he was in England his incduction came and went. He came back to the states, and made another deal, in which he was supposed to stay state side and do RoTC at the University of Arkansas. He didnt stay in Arkansas, he went back to England.

Clinton WAS a draft dodger. There is no denying that.
Dean WAS a draft dodger. There is no denying that.

Bush fulfilled his obligations. All be it, he likely did get special treatment, much like Al Gore Jr being part of the military press in vietnam instead of actually being anywhere near the frontline. Bush fulfilled his obligations, meet the requirements of an honorable discharge. And hes not the only one that got an early out of service, it was quite common then, and its still quite common today.

I've noticed that when left-leaning members bring up Clinton in a 'Bush thread', or if they bring up Bush in a 'Clinton-thread', they are chastised for doing so. But when right-leaning members are guilty of the same infractions, it's to prove a point.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: digitalsm
Everyone says Bush got special treatment.

Clinton used connections to dodge the draft. He used his connections to get is induction delayed, then he skipped the country to England. While he was in England his incduction came and went. He came back to the states, and made another deal, in which he was supposed to stay state side and do RoTC at the University of Arkansas. He didnt stay in Arkansas, he went back to England.

Clinton WAS a draft dodger. There is no denying that.
Dean WAS a draft dodger. There is no denying that.

Bush fulfilled his obligations. All be it, he likely did get special treatment, much like Al Gore Jr being part of the military press in vietnam instead of actually being anywhere near the frontline. Bush fulfilled his obligations, meet the requirements of an honorable discharge. And hes not the only one that got an early out of service, it was quite common then, and its still quite common today.

I've noticed that when left-leaning members bring up Clinton in a 'Bush thread', or if they bring up Bush in a 'Clinton-thread', they are chastised for doing so. But when right-leaning members are guilty of the same infractions, it's to prove a point.

You're barking up the wrong tree. I never chastise people bringing up Clinton. Other people in the thread mentioned Clinton. I clarified Clintons history.

 

[Ferocious]

I really don't care about his issue much.

But whenever the truth does come out why Bush was AWOL........I hope it isn't a boring reason.


Maybe he was a temporary CiA undercover operative or something?

 

[0roo0roo]

why not care? a man that ran on character should have some himself right?

a man who was for vietnam shouldn't use daddys power to jump ahead of 500 other applicants to the reserve pilot program to avoid combat. bush had a score of proficiency 25, the bare minimum for the program, and no flight experience, and yet daddys connections pushed him to the front. and remember, back then the national guard was different from what it is now, it was literally only to protect europe and us soil. no real chance of going to vietnam. even after getting this incredible present from daddy at the peak of war that probably saved his life, he shirks his duty. he misses his physical just as the military institutes drug tests....

if he was really a ok in the military, then why such minimal evidence? he should be able to bring out ppaper work that blows away all allegations, the military spends millions on the training of pilotes, and heavily documents their training for obvious reasons.

wheres bush's band of brothers? not one person comes forward to say he served with bush. only people who say they don't remember ever seeing him around. whereas kerry has men who served with him and helped save trying to help him campaign.

Maybe he was a temporary CiA undercover operative or something?

talk about bending over backwards.... knee pads working good for ya?

its amazing how desperate the trash talk show hosts are getting..

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Maybe he was a temporary CiA undercover operative or something?

talk about bending over backwards.... knee pads working good for ya?

its amazing how desperate the trash talk show hosts are getting..

Buahahaha - he's one of you. Do you not pay attention to his posts? He's a ~! ... well he's atleast a ~but if not actually a ~!.

CkG

 

[Gaard]

<a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/021104dnpolguard.b4fed.html">Aides say records show Bush served

Retired Guard officer says he saw some files discarded in trash</a>


Aides say records show Bush served

Retired Guard officer says he saw some files discarded in trash

02:46 AM CST on Wednesday, February 11, 2004

By WAYNE SLATER and MICHELLE MITTELSTADT / The Dallas Morning News

The White House released records Tuesday to buttress the president's assertion that he fulfilled his military duty during the Vietnam War, but it faced new questions about whether George W. Bush's file was altered before his 2000 presidential race.

Retired National Guard Lt. Col. Bill Burkett said Tuesday that in 1997, then-Gov. Bush's chief of staff, Joe Allbaugh, told the National Guard chief to get the Bush file and make certain "there's not anything there that will embarrass the governor."

Col. Burkett said that a few days later at Camp Mabry in Austin, he saw Mr. Bush's file and documents from it discarded in a trash can. He said he recognized the documents as retirement point summaries and pay forms.

Bush aides denied any destruction of records in Mr. Bush's personnel file. "The charges are just flat-out not true," said Dan Bartlett, White House communications director.

He said the president has been forthright in producing all documents relevant to his stint in the Texas Air National Guard, from 1968 to 1973. He dismissed Col. Burkett as a disgruntled former officer of the Texas Guard.

Mr. Allbaugh, now a Washington lobbyist, called Col. Burkett's assertions "hogwash."

A spokesman for the Texas Air National Guard, Lt. Col. John Stanford, dismissed Col. Burkett's account of the conversation as "far-fetched." Of the accusation that the files were altered, he said, "I have no knowledge that such an event ever occurred."

The release Tuesday of Mr. Bush's retirement point summaries and pay records as a member of the Guard underscored an effort by the White House to resolve a growing political debate over whether the president fulfilled his military obligations. Mr. Bush's service emerged as an issue in the 2000 campaign after a review of his military file found no evidence that he showed up for Guard duty for more than a year after transferring in May 1972 from his base in Houston to Alabama, where he worked on a Senate campaign.

Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe recently called Mr. Bush "AWOL" ? absent without leave ? during his time in Alabama. He noted that Mr. Bush's commanding officers said that they could not recall him taking part in some training.

Mr. Bush, who appears increasingly likely to face decorated Vietnam War veteran John Kerry in the November election, has long said he fulfilled his Texas Air National Guard duties, both in Texas and Alabama.

The records that the White House released Tuesday reflect pay and service for dates in 1972 and 1973 ? a further refutation of the "outrageous, baseless accusations" made by Democrats, said White House press secretary Scott McClellan.

Service under scrutiny

Major events in President Bush's service in the Texas National Guard, from staff and wire reports:

Jan. 19, 1968: Mr. Bush completes Air Force officer qualification test in New Haven, Conn., where he is attending Yale University.

May 27, 1968: Walter Staudt, commander of the Texas Air National Guard, interviews Mr. Bush and says he should be accepted for pilot training. Mr. Bush, whose father was Houston Rep. George Bush, had been recommended for the Guard by Texas Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes. In 1999, Mr. Barnes said he did so at the request of Houston oilman Sid Adger, a Bush family friend. The Bushes have said they didn't ask for or know about Mr. Adger's efforts.

Critics say there was a waiting list of thousands for Guard slots, but the man in charge of keeping the list said there was no such wait for willing, qualified pilot applicants.

Aug. 25, 1968: After graduating from Yale, Mr. Bush completes six weeks of basic military training in San Antonio as a 2nd lieutenant.

Nov. 26, 1968-March 1970: Mr. Bush attends one year of undergraduate pilot training at Moody Air Force Base in Georgia and additional training at Ellington Air Force Base near Houston.

May 1972: Mr. Bush, by then a 1st lieutenant, asks for and receives permission to continue his duties in Alabama while working as political director on the Senate campaign of Winton Blount, a friend of his father. He loses his flight credentials after missing a physical exam.

Mr. Bush's two superior officers in Houston write a year later that they could not perform his annual evaluation because he had "not been observed at this unit" during the preceding 12 months. The retired general who commanded the Alabama unit then has said he does not recall seeing Mr. Bush there, though the president says he did report for duty.

November 1972: Mr. Bush returns to his unit at Ellington in Texas.

May-July 1973: Mr. Bush participates in nonflying drills at Ellington.

Sept. 18, 1973: Mr. Bush receives permission to transfer to reserve status and is placed on inactive Guard duty about six months before his six-year commitment ends. He asked for that so he could attend Harvard Business School.

Oct. 1, 1973: Mr. Bush is honorably discharged.
The records show that Mr. Bush was paid for 82 days of service during 1972 and 1973 ? nearly half of which occurred during a three-month period, from May through July 1973.

The records do not indicate what duty Mr. Bush performed or where. The White House said it has not been able to produce fellow Guardsmen who could testify that Mr. Bush attended Guard meetings and drills.

"The president recalls serving both when he was in Texas and when he was in Alabama," Mr. McClellan said. "We have provided you these documents that show clearly that the president of the United States fulfilled his duties, and that is the reason that he was honorably discharged."

'That means he served'

The White House also issued an assessment solicited from a retired Texas Air National Guard personnel director who scoured the Bush military files during the 2000 campaign and reviewed the latest documents.

The new records "clearly" show that Mr. Bush "completed his military obligation in a satisfactory manner," retired Lt. Col. Albert Lloyd Jr. wrote.

The Democrats' Mr. McAuliffe said he still has questions.

"The fact remains that there is still no evidence that George W. Bush showed up for duty as ordered while in Alabama," he said. "We also still do not know why the president's superiors filed a report saying they were unable to evaluate his performance for that year because he had not been present to be evaluated."

Mr. McClellan said the records came to the staff's attention only Monday, after a check with the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver the day after Mr. Bush said on NBC's Meet the Press that he "absolutely" was willing to release his military records.

The 11 pages are pay records and summaries reflecting how many points Mr. Bush accumulated toward fulfillment of his Guard obligation. The records don't document any service dates between April 16, 1972, and Oct. 28, 1972 ? periods during which Mr. Bush was in Alabama.

Although the records do reflect some pay dates in 1972, Mr. McClellan stopped short of saying the documents offered definitive proof that Mr. Bush had shown up for duty in Alabama.

"When you serve, you are paid for that service, and these documents outlined the days on which he was paid," he said. "That means he served."

Mr. McClellan said Mr. Bush, a fighter pilot who didn't fly after April 1972 and later lost his flight status because he didn't complete his annual physical exam, performed "equivalent duty" in Alabama.

'The fair picture'

Mr. Bartlett called the Burkett allegations "outlandishly false" and accused him of being part of a group of disgruntled former Guardsmen critical of Maj. Gen. Daniel James III, head of the Texas National Guard before Mr. Bush promoted him to head the National Guard in Washington.

Gen. James' office referred all calls to Col. Stanford.

Col. Burkett acknowledged that he and other Guardsmen questioned the discipline standards and other issues under Gen. James. But Col. Burkett said from his home near Abilene that he remains loyal to the Guard.

Col. Burkett, who has voted in both GOP and Democratic primaries in the past, said he was disturbed over how the Bush file was handled. He initially made his assertions on a Web site two years ago, and they are reported in detail in a forthcoming book, Bush's War for Re-Election, by James Moore.

"I would like it that everybody sees the honest and fair picture here," he said.

According to Col. Burkett, he was at headquarters in the summer 1997 when he heard the conversation between Gen. James and Mr. Allbaugh. He said the Guard commander had the conversation about eliminating "embarrassments" on a speakerphone.

About 10 days later, he said, he saw Texas Gen. John Scribner going through the Bush file.

"I looked down and saw files on the table and of that sort of stuff, and in the wastecan there is a retirement points document that has the name Bush, George W. lLt on it," he said. "There were both originals and Xerox copies in the stack."

Gen. Scribner, now retired, denied the episode. "I sure don't know anything about what he's talking about," he said.


The story that won't die.

 

[MonkeyK]

Col. Burkett said that a few days later at Camp Mabry in Austin, he saw Mr. Bush's file and documents from it discarded in a trash can. He said he recognized the documents as retirement point summaries and pay forms.

In the TRASH? Sorry I can't believe that these sort of documents are put in the trash, these sorts of things are destroyed. Makes the story a little less believable

a man that ran on character should have some himself right?

a man who was for vietnam shouldn't use daddys power to jump ahead of 500 other applicants to the reserve pilot program to avoid combat. bush had a score of proficiency 25, the bare minimum for the program, and no flight experience, and yet daddys connections pushed him to the front. and remember, back then the national guard was different from what it is now, it was literally only to protect europe and us soil. no real chance of going to vietnam. even after getting this incredible present from daddy at the peak of war that probably saved his life, he shirks his duty. he misses his physical just as the military institutes drug tests....

Now you are putting a very high standard on character. I think owning up to your actions should be standard enough.

 

[nutxo]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
I obtained copies of my Military records from St. Louis on t different occasions.
First time while living in California before the fire, maybe '71 - '72, then later
when I was living in St. Louis in '97 - only lived 5 blocks away and it took a month.

hmm

When I was applying for a VA loan I was told I was never discharged, there is no dd214 on me, am I awol?

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: digitalsm
Everyone says Bush got special treatment.

Clinton used connections to dodge the draft. He used his connections to get is induction delayed, then he skipped the country to England. While he was in England his incduction came and went. He came back to the states, and made another deal, in which he was supposed to stay state side and do RoTC at the University of Arkansas. He didnt stay in Arkansas, he went back to England.

Clinton WAS a draft dodger. There is no denying that.
Dean WAS a draft dodger. There is no denying that.

Bush fulfilled his obligations. All be it, he likely did get special treatment, much like Al Gore Jr being part of the military press in vietnam instead of actually being anywhere near the frontline. Bush fulfilled his obligations, meet the requirements of an honorable discharge. And hes not the only one that got an early out of service, it was quite common then, and its still quite common today.

Yea, and Clinton got called on it. And Dean's gotten called on it. So Bush deserves to be evaluated on his reocrd as we are able to understand it too.

That's all.

 

[Gaard]

Ex-officer: Bush file's details caused concern


WASHINGTON ? As Texas Gov. George W. Bush prepared to run for president in the late 1990s, top-ranking Texas National Guard officers and Bush advisers discussed ways to limit the release of potentially embarrassing details from Bush's military records, a former senior officer of the Texas Guard said Wednesday.

...

On Tuesday, the White House released pay records from a military archive in Denver that it said showed Bush was paid for at least the minimum training time he was obligated for in 1972 and 1973.

But the records showed only what days he was paid for, not where he was or what duty he performed. Neither did they address outstanding questions about why Bush missed a required physical in 1972, forcing him to stop flying, or what happened during a five-month gap in 1972 when Bush didn't show up for training.

...

 

[Gaard]

Bush moved to Alabama unit without Air Force permission

NEW YORK - (KRT) - George W. Bush left his Texas Air National Guard assignment and moved to Alabama in 1972 even though the Air Force denied his request for a transfer, according to his military records.

...

The controversy over Bush's Vietnam War-era record - and Democratic charges that he was AWOL - has prodded records documenting his service into public scrutiny. While they suggest he complied with the requirements of the time, they also show long absences from duty and that he was suspended from flying.

...

 

[Gaard]

White House Releases '73 Bush Dental Exam

WASHINGTON - The White House late Wednesday released a copy of a dental evaluation President Bush (news - web sites) had in the National Guard in Alabama during the Vietnam War to rebut suggestions made by Democrats who have questioned whether the president ever showed up for duty there.

A copy of the dental examination done on Jan. 6, 1973, documents the president serving at Dannelly Air National Guard Base, which is south of Montgomery, Ala., White House press secretary Scott McClellan said in a statement.

...



Now I'm even more confused. I'll have to go back and read all the links, but I could swear it's documented somewhere where he reported back to Houston in Nov. '72.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: Gaard
White House Releases '73 Bush Dental Exam

WASHINGTON - The White House late Wednesday released a copy of a dental evaluation President Bush (news - web sites) had in the National Guard in Alabama during the Vietnam War to rebut suggestions made by Democrats who have questioned whether the president ever showed up for duty there.

A copy of the dental examination done on Jan. 6, 1973, documents the president serving at Dannelly Air National Guard Base, which is south of Montgomery, Ala., White House press secretary Scott McClellan said in a statement.

...



Now I'm even more confused. I'll have to go back and read all the links, but I could swear it's documented somewhere where he reported back to Houston in Nov. '72.

Shoot, I just had to look up a few posts...

November 1972: Mr. Bush returns to his unit at Ellington in Texas.

May-July 1973: Mr. Bush participates in nonflying drills at Ellington.


What's that old saying? Something's fishy in Denmark.

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk Go Away!

 

[UltraQuiet]

CNN

The shrill, red faced, rant of the Bush hating motards gets shoved further up their ass. I think this is great. The White House is releasing this a little at a time, each time the limp wristers say "yeah but . . " and then they release another piece.

Slow death. Make them look stupid for as long as possible (not that they need much help). I love it. Don't let this go girls, you've got GW on the ropes.

HAHAHAHA

 

[CaptnKirk]

nutxo -

No you are not AWOL - you're on active duty.
Report to Iraq immediately.

at least be honest with where you get your quotes

 

[Gaard]

Ok, I'll stop. After reading so many articles on this over the last few days I'm by no means convinced (or that the questions surrounding this issue is pure rhetoric), but I'm leaning towards not AWOL. Sloppy record keeping, questionable decisions, and unflattering reasons (other than AWOL) for not wanting this info to come out, but probably not AWOL.

There's still the question of why the dental exam was performed in Alabama when Bush was doing Guard duty in Texas, but I'm willing to drop it. (Though it pains me to do it after being thoroughly blasted by Dave a couple of posts up )

 

[Tom]

What I want to know was did the American people get their money's worth out of that dental exam ?

 

[nutxo]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
nutxo -

No you are not AWOL - you're on active duty.
Report to Iraq immediately.

at least be honest with where you get your quotes

Im quoting you referring to quotes by me linking to said quotes, please in the future qoute the qoutes rather than linking to the quotes so I do not need to search for said qoute.