Bushs Military Record in Question . . . Deeply

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JoeBaD

Banned
May 24, 2000
822
0
0
liberal friggin' hypocrites.

Its why I find your arguments so pitiful.

Republicans are jerks too. I just find Dems/Libs distort more. No question.

 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Being granted a medical deferment, like Dean- lots of seemingly healthy guys were deemed 1Y for flat feet, heart murmurs, back trouble, whatever the military docs decided

And never forget the ever popular pilonidal cyst. :)
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Gaard
Being granted a medical deferment, like Dean- lots of seemingly healthy guys were deemed 1Y for flat feet, heart murmurs, back trouble, whatever the military docs decided

And never forget the ever popular pilonidal cyst. :)

Hey I had one of those...knocked me off my ass (pardon the pun) for about 6 weeks. I had a hole you could drop a golf ball in, literally :) I even had my GF take a picture of it as proof. Anyone want to host? ;)

 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
0
0
Jhhnn didn't mention the ever popular deferment because you were under the care of an orthodontist. Get those braces put on. I went to VietNam. I have no real objection to people who didn't serve because of convictions -- no, not the kind of conviction George got, moral or political convictions. BTW, know where Rambo Stallone spent the hot draft time? Teaching in a Swiss girl's school.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
One aspect of the whole "AWOL Bush" argument that always baffled me was this: His father served 8 years as VP, 4 years as POTUS and Dubya himself served as TX Governor for almost 6. During that entire period, more than 17 years total, barely one paragraph may have been written about the supposedly "missed" service.

As then-U.S. President Lyndon Baines Johnson once said in May, 1965: "I don't think a President ought to debate crackpots".

Carry on, y'all. :p
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
George W. Bush applied to join the Texas Air National Guard on May 27, 1968, less than two weeks before he graduated from Yale University. The country was at war in Vietnam, and at that time, just months after the bloody Tet Offensive, an estimated 100,000 Americans were on waiting lists to join Guard units across the country. Bush was sworn in on the day he applied.

Ben Barnes, former speaker of the Texas House of Representatives, stated in September 1999 that in late 1967 or early 1968, he asked a senior official in the Texas Air National Guard to help Bush get into the Guard as a pilot. Barnes said he did so at the behest of Sidney Adger, a Houston businessman and friend of former President George H. W. Bush, then a Texas congressman. Despite Barnes's admission, former President Bush has denied pulling strings for his son, and retired Colonel Walter Staudt, George W. Bush's first commander, insists: "There was no special treatment."

In the spring of 1972, however, National Guard records show a sudden dropoff in Bush's military activity. Though trained as a pilot at considerable government expense, Bush stopped flying in April 1972 and never flew for the Guard again.
Isn't that about the time he was denied transfer?

Although that unit's commander was willing to welcome him, on May 31 higher-ups at the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver rejected Bush's request to serve at the 9921st, because it did not offer duty equivalent to his service in Texas. "[A]n obligated Reservist [in this case, Bush] can be assigned to a specific Ready Reserve position only," noted the disapproval memo, a copy of which was sent to Bush. "Therefore, he is ineligible for assignment to an Air Reserve Squadron."

Despite the military's decision, Bush moved to Alabama.
Uhh, doesn't that make you AWOL?

Neither Bush's annual evaluation nor the Air National Guard's overall chronological listing of his service contain any evidence that he performed Guard duties during that summer.
Uhh, doesn't that make you AWOL?

On September 5, Bush wrote to then-Colonel Jerry Killian at his original unit in Texas, requesting permission to serve with the 187th Tactical Reconnaisance Group, another Alabama-based unit. "This duty would be for the months of September, October, and November," wrote Bush.

Bush's records contain no evidence that he reported to Dannelly in October.
Hmm, doesn't that make you AWOL?

Bush maintains he did serve in Alabama. "Governor Bush specifically remembers pulling duty in Montgomery and respectfully disagrees with the Colonel," says Bartlett. "There's no question it wasn't memorable, because he wasn't flying." In July, the Decatur Daily reported that two former Blount campaign workers recall Bush serving in the Alabama Air National Guard in the fall of 1972. "I remember he actually came back to Alabama for about a week to 10 days several weeks after the campaign was over to complete his Guard duty in the state," stated Emily Martin, a former Alabama resident who said she dated Bush during the time he spent in that state.
So serving for up to 10 days satisfied his service requirement? I bet current Guard/Reserves in Iraq and Afghanistan would love that kind of arrangement.

After the 1972 election, which Blount lost, Bush moved back to Houston and subsequently began working at P.U.L.L., a community service center for disadvantaged youths. This period of time has also become a matter of controversy, because even though Bush's original unit had been placed on alert duty in October 1972, his superiors in Texas lost track of his whereabouts. On May 2, 1973, Bush's squadron leader in the 147th, Lieutenant Colonel William Harris, Jr. wrote: "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit" for the past year. Harris incorrectly assumed that Bush had been reporting for duty in Alabama all along. He wrote that Bush "has been performing equivalent training in a non-flying status with the 187 Tac Recon Gp, Dannelly ANG Base, Alabama." Base commander Hodges says of Bush's return to Texas: "All I remember is someone saying he came back and made up his days."
Let's see if I'm following. Bush went to AL without permission. Goofed off working as a political hack. Served maybe a couple of days with his unit. Election results apparently determined his move back to TX. But despite returning to his home state he made no effort to return to his assigned unit or contact his CO. So his squadron commander didn't see him but the base commander has a hearsay recollection that he made up his time?!

Two documents obtained by Georgemag.com indicate that Bush did make up the time he missed during the summer and autumn of 1972. One is an April 23, 1973 order for Bush to report to annual active duty training the following month; the other is an Air National Guard statement of days served by Bush that is torn and undated but contains entries that correspond to the first. Taken together, they appear to establish that Bush reported for duty on nine occasions between November 29, 1972-when he could have been in Alabama-and May 24, 1973. Bush still wasn't flying, but over this span, he did earn nine points of National Guard service from days of active duty and 32 from inactive duty. When added to the 15 so-called "gratuitous" points that every member of the Guard got per year, Bush accumulated 56 points, more than the 50 that he needed by the end of May 1973 to maintain his standing as a Guardsman.
Aren't these the documents that were "altered" by Georgemag?

On May 1, Bush was ordered to report for further active duty training, and documents show that he proceeded to cram in another 10 sessions over the next two months. Ultimately, he racked up 19 active duty points of service and 16 inactive duty points by July 30-which, added to his 15 gratuitous points, achieved the requisite total of 50 for the year ending in May 1974.

On October 1, 1973, First Lieutenant George W. Bush received an early honorable discharge so that he could attend Harvard Business School. He was credited with five years, four months and five days of service toward his six-year service obligation.

AWOL GWB
Rules are for people that lack imagination . . . or have no fear of repercussion.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
George W. Bush applied to join the Texas Air National Guard on May 27, 1968, less than two weeks before he graduated from Yale University. The country was at war in Vietnam, and at that time, just months after the bloody Tet Offensive, an estimated 100,000 Americans were on waiting lists to join Guard units across the country. Bush was sworn in on the day he applied.

Ben Barnes, former speaker of the Texas House of Representatives, stated in September 1999 that in late 1967 or early 1968, he asked a senior official in the Texas Air National Guard to help Bush get into the Guard as a pilot. Barnes said he did so at the behest of Sidney Adger, a Houston businessman and friend of former President George H. W. Bush, then a Texas congressman. Despite Barnes's admission, former President Bush has denied pulling strings for his son, and retired Colonel Walter Staudt, George W. Bush's first commander, insists: "There was no special treatment."

In the spring of 1972, however, National Guard records show a sudden dropoff in Bush's military activity. Though trained as a pilot at considerable government expense, Bush stopped flying in April 1972 and never flew for the Guard again.
Isn't that about the time he was denied transfer?

Although that unit's commander was willing to welcome him, on May 31 higher-ups at the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver rejected Bush's request to serve at the 9921st, because it did not offer duty equivalent to his service in Texas. "[A]n obligated Reservist [in this case, Bush] can be assigned to a specific Ready Reserve position only," noted the disapproval memo, a copy of which was sent to Bush. "Therefore, he is ineligible for assignment to an Air Reserve Squadron."

Despite the military's decision, Bush moved to Alabama.
Uhh, doesn't that make you AWOL?

Neither Bush's annual evaluation nor the Air National Guard's overall chronological listing of his service contain any evidence that he performed Guard duties during that summer.
Uhh, doesn't that make you AWOL?

On September 5, Bush wrote to then-Colonel Jerry Killian at his original unit in Texas, requesting permission to serve with the 187th Tactical Reconnaisance Group, another Alabama-based unit. "This duty would be for the months of September, October, and November," wrote Bush.

Bush's records contain no evidence that he reported to Dannelly in October.
Hmm, doesn't that make you AWOL?

Bush maintains he did serve in Alabama. "Governor Bush specifically remembers pulling duty in Montgomery and respectfully disagrees with the Colonel," says Bartlett. "There's no question it wasn't memorable, because he wasn't flying." In July, the Decatur Daily reported that two former Blount campaign workers recall Bush serving in the Alabama Air National Guard in the fall of 1972. "I remember he actually came back to Alabama for about a week to 10 days several weeks after the campaign was over to complete his Guard duty in the state," stated Emily Martin, a former Alabama resident who said she dated Bush during the time he spent in that state.
So serving for up to 10 days satisfied his service requirement? I bet current Guard/Reserves in Iraq and Afghanistan would love that kind of arrangement.

After the 1972 election, which Blount lost, Bush moved back to Houston and subsequently began working at P.U.L.L., a community service center for disadvantaged youths. This period of time has also become a matter of controversy, because even though Bush's original unit had been placed on alert duty in October 1972, his superiors in Texas lost track of his whereabouts. On May 2, 1973, Bush's squadron leader in the 147th, Lieutenant Colonel William Harris, Jr. wrote: "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit" for the past year. Harris incorrectly assumed that Bush had been reporting for duty in Alabama all along. He wrote that Bush "has been performing equivalent training in a non-flying status with the 187 Tac Recon Gp, Dannelly ANG Base, Alabama." Base commander Hodges says of Bush's return to Texas: "All I remember is someone saying he came back and made up his days."
Let's see if I'm following. Bush went to AL without permission. Goofed off working as a political hack. Served maybe a couple of days with his unit. Election results apparently determined his move back to TX. But despite returning to his home state he made no effort to return to his assigned unit or contact his CO. So his squadron commander didn't see him but the base commander has a hearsay recollection that he made up his time?!

Two documents obtained by Georgemag.com indicate that Bush did make up the time he missed during the summer and autumn of 1972. One is an April 23, 1973 order for Bush to report to annual active duty training the following month; the other is an Air National Guard statement of days served by Bush that is torn and undated but contains entries that correspond to the first. Taken together, they appear to establish that Bush reported for duty on nine occasions between November 29, 1972-when he could have been in Alabama-and May 24, 1973. Bush still wasn't flying, but over this span, he did earn nine points of National Guard service from days of active duty and 32 from inactive duty. When added to the 15 so-called "gratuitous" points that every member of the Guard got per year, Bush accumulated 56 points, more than the 50 that he needed by the end of May 1973 to maintain his standing as a Guardsman.
Aren't these the documents that were "altered" by Georgemag?

On May 1, Bush was ordered to report for further active duty training, and documents show that he proceeded to cram in another 10 sessions over the next two months. Ultimately, he racked up 19 active duty points of service and 16 inactive duty points by July 30-which, added to his 15 gratuitous points, achieved the requisite total of 50 for the year ending in May 1974.

On October 1, 1973, First Lieutenant George W. Bush received an early honorable discharge so that he could attend Harvard Business School. He was credited with five years, four months and five days of service toward his six-year service obligation.

AWOL GWB
Rules are for people that lack imagination . . . or have no fear of repercussion.

In the end he did complete the requirements and received an honorable discharge.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
In the end he did complete the requirements and received an honorable discharge.
I cannot disagree with you that he completed the bare minimum requirement (thnx to gratuitous hours) and received an honorable early discharge. But he was still AWOL . . . in 1972 into 1973.

If the totality of your claim was that he completed his requirements and received an honorable dischage then I would be in full agreement.

But you said,
02/03/2004 11:39 PM The Real Military Record of George W. Bush: Not Heroic, but Not AWOL, Either
Clearly, Bush was absent without leave on multiple occasions . . . or depending on your preference . . . one extended period from Spring 1972-Spring 1973. I'm just as intrigued by Bush's claim that he felt flight was going to be a career . . . yet he bailed at the earliest opportunity.



 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
In the end he did complete the requirements and received an honorable discharge.
I cannot disagree with you that he completed the bare minimum requirement (thnx to gratuitous hours) and received an honorable early discharge. But he was still AWOL . . . in 1972 into 1973.

If the totality of your claim was that he completed his requirements and received an honorable dischage then I would be in full agreement.

But you said,
02/03/2004 11:39 PM The Real Military Record of George W. Bush: Not Heroic, but Not AWOL, Either
Clearly, Bush was absent without leave on multiple occasions . . . or depending on your preference . . . one extended period from Spring 1972-Spring 1973. I'm just as intrigued by Bush's claim that he felt flight was going to be a career . . . yet he bailed at the earliest opportunity.

That was the author's title not mine. I also thought it was a fairly balanced article as well.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
The argument that Dubya "made up for it later" doesn't really fly very well, given the rules of the Guard and the Military in general. Ask any swabby who ever missed his ship. Many Guardsmen who failed to fulfill their obligations as laid out found themselves in the brig or activated and shipped off to Vietnam. Everybody involved knew that Guardsmen were getting a relatively sweet deal, particularly their commanders. The price for that deal was easy to pay, the consequences of failure to do so usually severe-

Except for Dubya, a guy who has been bailed out of so many screw ups that his family probably lost count, his stint in the Guard really being no different.

Many in the military disrespected Clinton, calling him a draft dodger, but I personally find Dubya's role as a Poseur much more distasteful...
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
Rarely can one be a Rhodes Scholar
Thank God for that..
I believe that Michael Kinsley was once quoted as saying that Rhodes Scholars tend to be a curious mix of idealism and raw self-serving ambition.. and he ought to know..i
he was a Rhodie himself..
 

wirelessenabled

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2001
2,191
41
91
It would be interesting to find out how many guys got trained in fighter jets only to never fly on active duty.

The taxpayers spent big bucks training Bush and got nothing in return.

I also had friends/family who tried to get into the Guard with no success. I don't know anyone who got in, let alone got in the day they applied. I do know lots of folks who went off to Vietnam involuntarily including two of my brothers. Of course I bet all the guys who showed up at the Texas Guard office on that day were immediately sworn in;)

I don't begrudge Bush wanting to escape Vietnam, almost everybody did. The problem I have is that he made the implicit deal by going in to the Guard that he would serve his time as directed. After getting the special deal Bush wouldn't even uphold his end. This is the guy who is bringing "Dignity and Honor" to the White House?:Q
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
WirelessE:

Lots of guys don't finish flight school. That's a tough trip. My son wanted to be a Marine pilot, but because he had had a spiral fracture of his left femur from an arm wrestling tournament at Disney he was dq-ed. Too bad for the Marines, but I was happy. :)

The odds are that Bush probably never was fighter pilot material. He probably could have flown choppers or fixed wing aircraft.

-Robert
 

KK

Lifer
Jan 2, 2001
15,903
4
81
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: burnedout
*Breaking News*Bush to release records of Guard service-Film at eleven

Bush credited for Guard drills

CkG

Hmm, I wonder if the pussy libs will show up and say anything now. :) You ever notice how all the time you are hearing those stupid ass Democrats screaming, ranting, and raving. When was the last time you have seen a republican act quite like an ass by hooting and hollering? They're just angry little people, I tell ya. :D

KK
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
Just to stir think up..:p

Does it seem ironic to anyone that at the same time that Bush's National Guard service is under scrutiny, and apparently was either inadequate or barely adequate..

that thousands of National Guard soldiers are pulling dangerous tours of duty in Iraq, often for very long periods of time ?




 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
"When was the last time you have seen a republican act quite like an ass by hooting and hollering?"

uh, about 1:06 pm. :sun:
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: KK
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: burnedout
*Breaking News*Bush to release records of Guard service-Film at eleven

Bush credited for Guard drills

CkG

Hmm, I wonder if the pussy libs will show up and say anything now. :) You ever notice how all the time you are hearing those stupid ass Democrats screaming, ranting, and raving. When was the last time you have seen a republican act quite like an ass by hooting and hollering? They're just angry little people, I tell ya. :D

KK

Ayup...they seemed to defend Clinton and his draft-dodging but, oh my! Bush transferred to a different guard unit and some gaps appeared and they loose the hounds of hell!
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
5,446
0
76
Originally posted by: KK
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: burnedout
*Breaking News*Bush to release records of Guard service-Film at eleven

Bush credited for Guard drills

CkG

Hmm, I wonder if the pussy libs will show up and say anything now. :) You ever notice how all the time you are hearing those stupid ass Democrats screaming, ranting, and raving. When was the last time you have seen a republican act quite like an ass by hooting and hollering? They're just angry little people, I tell ya. :D

KK

But the documents seem unlikely to resolve questions about whether Bush shirked his duty during his tour as a fighter-interceptor pilot for the Texas Air Guard during the Vietnam War. That is because some of the dates on the service list fell during a period in the fall of 1972 when Bush was reassigned to a guard unit in Alabama. The commander of the Alabama unit has said Bush did not appear for duty at his assigned unit there.

Bartlett said the Guard drills Bush is listed as attending in January and April 1973 were probably conducted at Bush's home base in Houston. But on May 2, 1973, Bush's two commanders at Ellington Air Force Base wrote that they could not evaluate his performance for the prior 12 months because he had not been there. Two other Bush superiors said in interviews four years ago that they do not believe Bush ever returned to his Houston base from Alabama.




 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
"Ayup...they seemed to defend Clinton and his draft-dodging but, oh my! Bush transferred to a different guard unit and some gaps appeared and they loose the hounds of hell! "

In Clinton's race against Bush Sr I believe most voters, including Democrats, would agree that on the issue of military service there was no question that Bush Sr had a superior record.

But that was only one factor in the race and on overall Clinton was considered the better choice.

As to Bush's record, it would be refreshing if there were Republicans who could look at Bush's National Guard record and admit it sure isn't too impressive, particularly given Bush's willingness to use his military service for political purposes, like in the aircraft carrier dealio.

 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: tnitsuj

But the documents seem unlikely to resolve questions about whether Bush shirked his duty during his tour as a fighter-interceptor pilot for the Texas Air Guard during the Vietnam War. That is because some of the dates on the service list fell during a period in the fall of 1972 when Bush was reassigned to a guard unit in Alabama. The commander of the Alabama unit has said Bush did not appear for duty at his assigned unit there.

Bartlett said the Guard drills Bush is listed as attending in January and April 1973 were probably conducted at Bush's home base in Houston. But on May 2, 1973, Bush's two commanders at Ellington Air Force Base wrote that they could not evaluate his performance for the prior 12 months because he had not been there. Two other Bush superiors said in interviews four years ago that they do not believe Bush ever returned to his Houston base from Alabama.
Here is a canned explanation from a person "in the know" that coincides with my knowledge of OER/EER/NCOER administration:

"The 'smoking gun' AWOL proof cite is actually a standard report evaluation of ANG members that have transferred during an evaluation period. Each command is required to submit an evaluation record even if the member is no longer there to keep a constant an unbroken line of evaluation."

"The 'smoking gun' terminology of "Not observed at this station" is the exact proper wording found in any members record of evaluation during a transfer which oddly the previous cited documents actually prove was the case. This is the standard evaluation extension language used in almost all military records. For the Navy the block is listed with "Not Observed" for the Army it lists "not present for evaluation. The flight suspension letter is also a commonplace form letter suspending flying till an annual physical exam is completed."
 

rbV5

Lifer
Dec 10, 2000
12,632
0
0
I was a kid growing up during the vietnam war, alot of my friends lost their brothers and fathers. It was an ugly time for America. I remember getting kicked out of junior high for wearing my best friends brothers army jacket the day after he gave it to me after his return safely from his tour of duty in 1972. I had long hair by then, and the school officials took it as some kind of put down to America because of the unrest that was happening, when in fact, I was pretty stoked he gave it to me and wore it with pride. The war was wrong, we all know it was wrong, and I know alot of vets that feel the same way. I didn't approve of or understand what we were fighting for, I didn't approve or understand the treatment of our vets upon their return, and I was appalled at the what had happened at Kent State and elsewhere around the country.

I'm giving GWB a pass on this one. I don't blame him or anybody else for not wanting to go an fight over there, especially at that point in the war, and I could care less about the details. I remember being damn scared that I was going to have to go, standing in line and registering for the draft. There is alot more important stuff to be outraged concerning GWB than some phony ass outrage about a war we had no business sending our young men to.

Start counting by ones, when you get to a little over 58,000...LMK how f'ing outraged you are.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
You can't blame him for staying out of Viet Nam. Even Kerry who served with distinction over there said the war was wrong!