What possibility exists that during the Nixon administration, with his Dad serving in the government, that any official action would be taken even if Bush jr had not reported for duty when and where he was supposed to ?
The purpose of looking at the documents isn't to find AWOL scribbled in big red letters, its too see what documentation exists of Bush's service record.
I would expect that if Bush was fulfilling his duties in a manner typical of most reservists there would not be any difficulty in documenting his service.
The purpose of looking at the documents isn't to find AWOL scribbled in big red letters, its too see what documentation exists of Bush's service record.
I would expect that if Bush was fulfilling his duties in a manner typical of most reservists there would not be any difficulty in documenting his service.
The point you are missing is that the issue isn't about the fact he joined the Guard to avoid going to Vietnam,
the issue is did he do his fulfill his obligations as a Guardsman ?
Apparently the answer is that he got official credit for doing so, but barely, and there is some record that he got credit from his superiors in Alabama for drilling they assumed he did in Texas, even though his superiors in Texas say he wasn't there.
If I'm following the story correctly.
Turpinseed recants AWOL charge
"But on Wednesday Gen. Turnipseed reversed course, telling NBC News: "I don't know if [Bush] showed up, I don't know if he didn't. I don't remember how often I was even at the base."
Still, the same day the retired general had withdrawn the allegation, Democratic National Committee chairman Terry McAuliffe was citing Turnipseed's earlier, erroneous account in a bid to keep AWOL charges against Bush afloat."
*note*: heard about this on NBC news. I don't have another printed reference other than Newsmax (ugh) at the moment.
"But on Wednesday Gen. Turnipseed reversed course, telling NBC News: "I don't know if [Bush] showed up, I don't know if he didn't. I don't remember how often I was even at the base."
Still, the same day the retired general had withdrawn the allegation, Democratic National Committee chairman Terry McAuliffe was citing Turnipseed's earlier, erroneous account in a bid to keep AWOL charges against Bush afloat."
*note*: heard about this on NBC news. I don't have another printed reference other than Newsmax (ugh) at the moment.
Originally posted by: KK
Hmm, I wonder if the pussy libs will show up and say anything now.You ever notice how all the time you are hearing those stupid ass Democrats screaming, ranting, and raving. When was the last time you have seen a republican act quite like an ass by hooting and hollering? They're just angry little people, I tell ya.
KK
Shouldnt that be KKK well done for learning how to spell redneck
well, if you ever get a printable, credible source, it would be nice. The site you do link from calls the earlier account "erroneous", that seems like a bit of a stretch based on the actual quotes from the general.
His new account doesn't clear anything up, does it ?
WTF do you think? Four years ago, Turpinseed was literally convinced that Bush never showed up. Now, according to this report, he says, and I quote: "I don't know if [Bush] showed up, I don't know if he didn't. I don't remember how often I was even at the base."
As alluded earlier, Newsmax isn't preferable for a source. But fear not, for if/when another source more credible is located, I'll surely post it.
"WTF do you think? Four years ago, Turpinseed was literally convinced that Bush never showed up. Now, according to this report, he says, and I quote: "I don't know if [Bush] showed up, I don't know if he didn't. I don't remember how often I was even at the base.""
Well it would be better if he could say he remembers having a brew with Bush in the canteen..
But on CNN the report is they found some payroll records that show Bush was paid for the time in question, and since we know that no employee has ever been paid unless they did what they were supposed too I guess it's been resolved.
LOL :moon:
Well it would be better if he could say he remembers having a brew with Bush in the canteen..
But on CNN the report is they found some payroll records that show Bush was paid for the time in question, and since we know that no employee has ever been paid unless they did what they were supposed too I guess it's been resolved.
LOL :moon:
Bush National Guard Records Released
From Associated Press
WASHINGTON ? The White House, facing election-year questions about President Bush's military service, released pay records today that it said supported Bush's assertion that he fulfilled his duty as a member of the Air National Guard during the Vietnam War.
The material included annual retirement point summaries and pay records that the White House said showed that Bush served.
"When you serve, you are paid for that service. These documents outline the days on which he was paid. That means he served. And these documents also show he met his requirements," press secretary Scott McClellan told reporters. "And it's just really a shame that people are continuing to bring this up."
The documents indicate Bush received pay for six days of duty between May and December of 1972 when he was assigned to temporary duty in Alabama. There is a five-month stretch at the start of 1972 when he was not paid for service. The records do not indicate what duty Bush performed or where he was.
The White House has not been able to produce fellow guardsmen who could testify that Bush attended guard meetings and drills. "Obviously we would have made people available" if they had been found, McClellan said.
Sen. John Kerry, the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, is regularly accompanied by a "band of brothers" of military veterans who served with him in Vietnam.
Kerry said today he has said all he is going to say about Bush's record.
"I just don't have any comment on it," Kerry told reporters between campaign stops in Tennessee and Virginia. "It's not an issue that I chose to create. It's not my record that's at issue and I don't have any questions about it."
Retired Army Col. Dan Smith, a 26-year military veteran, questioned the usefulness of the latest information.
"Pay records don't mean anything except that you're in or you're out," said Smith. "It doesn't necessarily reflect what duty you've actually performed because pay records simply record your unit of assignment and then all of your pay and benefits per pay period. In terms of actually reporting for your duty, that would not be reflected on the pay notification, or pay stub."
A memo written by retired Lt. Col. Albert Lloyd Jr., at the request of the White House, said a review of Bush's records showed that he had "satisfactory years" for the period of 1972-73 and 1973-74 "which proves that he completed his military obligation in a satisfactory manner."
Lloyd was personnel director for the Texas Air National Guard from 1969 to 1995 and also had reviewed Bush's military records at the request of his campaign four years ago.
The point summaries were released during the 2000 presidential campaign but the pay records were not obtained by the White House until late Monday from the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver, McClellan said. He said the center, apparently acting on its own, reviewed Bush's records and came up with the pay information.
"It was our impression from the Texas Air National Guard -- they stated they didn't have them," he said. "It was also our impression those records didn't exist." Bush on Sunday authorized the release of his Guard records. McClellan said the latest material apparently is all of Bush's records.
Bush's military record was raised as an issue in the 2000 campaign and was revived this year by Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe, who called Bush "AWOL" -- absent without leave -- during a period of his service when he was in Alabama.
Asked if the records should end the controversy about Bush's service, McClellan said, "You have to ask those who made these outrageous accusations if they stand by them in the face of this documentation that demonstrates he served and fulfilled his duties."
Bush enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard in 1968 shortly before graduating from Yale University.
Questions have been raised about whether family connections helped him get into the Guard when there were waiting lists. Bush says no one in his family pulled strings and that he got in because others didn't want to commit to the almost two years of active duty required for fighter pilot training.
A central issue is whether he showed up for duty while assigned to Guard units in Alabama, where he worked on a political campaign in 1972. "There may be no evidence, but I did report," Bush told NBC's "Meet the Press" on Sunday. "Otherwise, I wouldn't have been honorably discharged."
Does Dan Smith have a point or not? (I never served, I don't know)
Also, do you get a DD-214 in the Guard?
From Associated Press
WASHINGTON ? The White House, facing election-year questions about President Bush's military service, released pay records today that it said supported Bush's assertion that he fulfilled his duty as a member of the Air National Guard during the Vietnam War.
The material included annual retirement point summaries and pay records that the White House said showed that Bush served.
"When you serve, you are paid for that service. These documents outline the days on which he was paid. That means he served. And these documents also show he met his requirements," press secretary Scott McClellan told reporters. "And it's just really a shame that people are continuing to bring this up."
The documents indicate Bush received pay for six days of duty between May and December of 1972 when he was assigned to temporary duty in Alabama. There is a five-month stretch at the start of 1972 when he was not paid for service. The records do not indicate what duty Bush performed or where he was.
The White House has not been able to produce fellow guardsmen who could testify that Bush attended guard meetings and drills. "Obviously we would have made people available" if they had been found, McClellan said.
Sen. John Kerry, the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, is regularly accompanied by a "band of brothers" of military veterans who served with him in Vietnam.
Kerry said today he has said all he is going to say about Bush's record.
"I just don't have any comment on it," Kerry told reporters between campaign stops in Tennessee and Virginia. "It's not an issue that I chose to create. It's not my record that's at issue and I don't have any questions about it."
Retired Army Col. Dan Smith, a 26-year military veteran, questioned the usefulness of the latest information.
"Pay records don't mean anything except that you're in or you're out," said Smith. "It doesn't necessarily reflect what duty you've actually performed because pay records simply record your unit of assignment and then all of your pay and benefits per pay period. In terms of actually reporting for your duty, that would not be reflected on the pay notification, or pay stub."
A memo written by retired Lt. Col. Albert Lloyd Jr., at the request of the White House, said a review of Bush's records showed that he had "satisfactory years" for the period of 1972-73 and 1973-74 "which proves that he completed his military obligation in a satisfactory manner."
Lloyd was personnel director for the Texas Air National Guard from 1969 to 1995 and also had reviewed Bush's military records at the request of his campaign four years ago.
The point summaries were released during the 2000 presidential campaign but the pay records were not obtained by the White House until late Monday from the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver, McClellan said. He said the center, apparently acting on its own, reviewed Bush's records and came up with the pay information.
"It was our impression from the Texas Air National Guard -- they stated they didn't have them," he said. "It was also our impression those records didn't exist." Bush on Sunday authorized the release of his Guard records. McClellan said the latest material apparently is all of Bush's records.
Bush's military record was raised as an issue in the 2000 campaign and was revived this year by Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe, who called Bush "AWOL" -- absent without leave -- during a period of his service when he was in Alabama.
Asked if the records should end the controversy about Bush's service, McClellan said, "You have to ask those who made these outrageous accusations if they stand by them in the face of this documentation that demonstrates he served and fulfilled his duties."
Bush enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard in 1968 shortly before graduating from Yale University.
Questions have been raised about whether family connections helped him get into the Guard when there were waiting lists. Bush says no one in his family pulled strings and that he got in because others didn't want to commit to the almost two years of active duty required for fighter pilot training.
A central issue is whether he showed up for duty while assigned to Guard units in Alabama, where he worked on a political campaign in 1972. "There may be no evidence, but I did report," Bush told NBC's "Meet the Press" on Sunday. "Otherwise, I wouldn't have been honorably discharged."
Does Dan Smith have a point or not? (I never served, I don't know)
Also, do you get a DD-214 in the Guard?
<a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/02/10/bush_credited_for_guard_drills?mode=PF">Bush credited for Guard drills
But time frame leaves questions</a>
By Walter V. Robinson, Globe Staff, 2/10/2004
President Bush received credit for attending Air National Guard drills in the fall of 1972 and spring of 1973 -- a period when his commanders have said he did not appear for duty at bases in Montgomery, Ala., and Houston -- according to two new documents obtained by the Globe.
The personnel records, covering Bush's Guard service between May 1972 and May 1973, constitute the first evidence that Bush appeared for any duty during the first 11 months of that 12-month period. Bush is recorded as having served the minimum number of days expected of Guard members in that 12 months of service time.
One of the documents lists nine service periods of 2 to 3 days each and records the points Bush earned toward his service retirement benefit. The other is a summary of his service in the 12 months beginning May 1972, and lists the same number of service points earned.
Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director, said last night that the listing of service dates, which the White House intends to make public today, documents Bush's longstanding assertion that he fulfilled his military obligation.
But the documents seem unlikely to resolve questions about whether Bush shirked his duty during his tour as a fighter-interceptor pilot for the Texas Air Guard during the Vietnam War. That is because some of the dates on the service list fell during a period in the fall of 1972 when Bush was reassigned to a guard unit in Alabama. The commander of the Alabama unit has said Bush did not appear for duty at his assigned unit there.
Bartlett said the Guard drills Bush is listed as attending in January and April 1973 were probably conducted at Bush's home base in Houston. But on May 2, 1973, Bush's two commanders at Ellington Air Force Base wrote that they could not evaluate his performance for the prior 12 months because he had not been there. Two other Bush superiors said in interviews four years ago that they do not believe Bush ever returned to his Houston base from Alabama.
The Globe obtained both of the documents from a political activist who says he acquired them in December 2000 from the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Colorado. The activist, Bob Fertig, is a cofounder of Democrats.com, a website that has no formal affiliation with the Democratic Party.
The document that Bartlett has and plans to release is a short list of retirement points earned by Bush for training days in October and November 1972 and in January, April, and May 1973.
A partial, torn copy of that document was made available to the news media by Bush aides in 2000, when questions about his Guard service were raised. The torn copy listed the number of training days, but showed neither service dates nor Bush's name -- both were in the torn-away portion. But Bush's Social Security number was visible on one copy obtained by the Globe.
No explanation has been offered for how the document was torn or why an undamaged copy was not available in 2000.
The second document, which Bartlett said the White House had not yet obtained, is Bush's personnel record card for the period of May 27, 1972, to May 26, 1973. As is the case with Guard members, Bush, the card shows, was generally given 2 points for each day of weekend training.
But this card, unlike those for the other years of Bush's service, does not itemize Bush's individual day of service; it gives only a total. The personnel record card also indicates that Bush was on flying status, even though he never flew for his unit after April 1972.
Bush, in an interview Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press," insisted that he had attended Guard drills during the 12 months beginning May 1972. The president also said that during the 2000 campaign, the Colorado record facility had been "scoured" to ensure that everything had been made public.
And Bush agreed to make public all of his military records. Asked last night whether the White House would authorize the Colorado records facility to make public all of Bush's records, Bartlett said any that are germane would be made public after being reviewed by the White House. On this issue, Bartlett said, the practice has been to release every document.
Bartlett said he could not explain why Fertig's group had access to more documents than the White House.
Fertig called for an independent investigation. Noting that the new documents are contradicted by other public documents, and statements by Bush's Guard superiors, Fertig said the public has a right to know whether Bush received credit for duty he did not perform.
Bush's Guard service began in earnest after he graduated from flight school in November 1969. He then returned to Ellington for six months of training in the F-102 fighter-interceptor, and then from June 1970 until April 1972, he flew frequently.
But the following month, he won permission to move to Alabama for several months to work on the US Senate campaign of Winton Blount, a Republican. In Montgomery, Bush was supposed to do periodic drills with another Guard unit. But its commander has said Bush never appeared. Bush has said he did, but does not recall what duties he performed.
In September 1972, Bush was removed from flight duty for failing to have his annual physical.
According to the two documents, Bush accumulated 41 service points by appearing for duty on 24 days between May 1972 and May 1973. He received 15 "gratuitous" points for being in the military, for a total of 56 points. Retired Lieutenant Colonel Albert. C. Lloyd Jr., a former personnel director for the Texas Air Guard, said in an interview last night that the minimum number of points required for any year was 50, although most Guardsmen logged substantially more.
"The document shows he satisfactorily completed his military obligation for that year," Lloyd said.
Bush's record of days served ran from May to May each year because he entered the Air National Guard in May 1968, just after graduating from Yale.
Other records, which were disclosed four years ago, show that Bush was ordered to appear for a flurry of duty days in May, June, and July 1973 -- orders that Lloyd said in 2000 may have been issued because Bush's commanders realized he had not been fulfilling his requirements. The records obtained yesterday indicate that Bush would not have made his minimum for that year but for seven days of duty in May 1973.
His final duty day was on July 30, 1973, even though he signed a commitment to fly for the unit until November 1974. Bush was granted an "early out" -- not uncommon as the Vietnam War was winding down -- to attend Harvard Business School.
But time frame leaves questions</a>
By Walter V. Robinson, Globe Staff, 2/10/2004
President Bush received credit for attending Air National Guard drills in the fall of 1972 and spring of 1973 -- a period when his commanders have said he did not appear for duty at bases in Montgomery, Ala., and Houston -- according to two new documents obtained by the Globe.
The personnel records, covering Bush's Guard service between May 1972 and May 1973, constitute the first evidence that Bush appeared for any duty during the first 11 months of that 12-month period. Bush is recorded as having served the minimum number of days expected of Guard members in that 12 months of service time.
One of the documents lists nine service periods of 2 to 3 days each and records the points Bush earned toward his service retirement benefit. The other is a summary of his service in the 12 months beginning May 1972, and lists the same number of service points earned.
Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director, said last night that the listing of service dates, which the White House intends to make public today, documents Bush's longstanding assertion that he fulfilled his military obligation.
But the documents seem unlikely to resolve questions about whether Bush shirked his duty during his tour as a fighter-interceptor pilot for the Texas Air Guard during the Vietnam War. That is because some of the dates on the service list fell during a period in the fall of 1972 when Bush was reassigned to a guard unit in Alabama. The commander of the Alabama unit has said Bush did not appear for duty at his assigned unit there.
Bartlett said the Guard drills Bush is listed as attending in January and April 1973 were probably conducted at Bush's home base in Houston. But on May 2, 1973, Bush's two commanders at Ellington Air Force Base wrote that they could not evaluate his performance for the prior 12 months because he had not been there. Two other Bush superiors said in interviews four years ago that they do not believe Bush ever returned to his Houston base from Alabama.
The Globe obtained both of the documents from a political activist who says he acquired them in December 2000 from the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Colorado. The activist, Bob Fertig, is a cofounder of Democrats.com, a website that has no formal affiliation with the Democratic Party.
The document that Bartlett has and plans to release is a short list of retirement points earned by Bush for training days in October and November 1972 and in January, April, and May 1973.
A partial, torn copy of that document was made available to the news media by Bush aides in 2000, when questions about his Guard service were raised. The torn copy listed the number of training days, but showed neither service dates nor Bush's name -- both were in the torn-away portion. But Bush's Social Security number was visible on one copy obtained by the Globe.
No explanation has been offered for how the document was torn or why an undamaged copy was not available in 2000.
The second document, which Bartlett said the White House had not yet obtained, is Bush's personnel record card for the period of May 27, 1972, to May 26, 1973. As is the case with Guard members, Bush, the card shows, was generally given 2 points for each day of weekend training.
But this card, unlike those for the other years of Bush's service, does not itemize Bush's individual day of service; it gives only a total. The personnel record card also indicates that Bush was on flying status, even though he never flew for his unit after April 1972.
Bush, in an interview Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press," insisted that he had attended Guard drills during the 12 months beginning May 1972. The president also said that during the 2000 campaign, the Colorado record facility had been "scoured" to ensure that everything had been made public.
And Bush agreed to make public all of his military records. Asked last night whether the White House would authorize the Colorado records facility to make public all of Bush's records, Bartlett said any that are germane would be made public after being reviewed by the White House. On this issue, Bartlett said, the practice has been to release every document.
Bartlett said he could not explain why Fertig's group had access to more documents than the White House.
Fertig called for an independent investigation. Noting that the new documents are contradicted by other public documents, and statements by Bush's Guard superiors, Fertig said the public has a right to know whether Bush received credit for duty he did not perform.
Bush's Guard service began in earnest after he graduated from flight school in November 1969. He then returned to Ellington for six months of training in the F-102 fighter-interceptor, and then from June 1970 until April 1972, he flew frequently.
But the following month, he won permission to move to Alabama for several months to work on the US Senate campaign of Winton Blount, a Republican. In Montgomery, Bush was supposed to do periodic drills with another Guard unit. But its commander has said Bush never appeared. Bush has said he did, but does not recall what duties he performed.
In September 1972, Bush was removed from flight duty for failing to have his annual physical.
According to the two documents, Bush accumulated 41 service points by appearing for duty on 24 days between May 1972 and May 1973. He received 15 "gratuitous" points for being in the military, for a total of 56 points. Retired Lieutenant Colonel Albert. C. Lloyd Jr., a former personnel director for the Texas Air Guard, said in an interview last night that the minimum number of points required for any year was 50, although most Guardsmen logged substantially more.
"The document shows he satisfactorily completed his military obligation for that year," Lloyd said.
Bush's record of days served ran from May to May each year because he entered the Air National Guard in May 1968, just after graduating from Yale.
Other records, which were disclosed four years ago, show that Bush was ordered to appear for a flurry of duty days in May, June, and July 1973 -- orders that Lloyd said in 2000 may have been issued because Bush's commanders realized he had not been fulfilling his requirements. The records obtained yesterday indicate that Bush would not have made his minimum for that year but for seven days of duty in May 1973.
His final duty day was on July 30, 1973, even though he signed a commitment to fly for the unit until November 1974. Bush was granted an "early out" -- not uncommon as the Vietnam War was winding down -- to attend Harvard Business School.
Kerry said the other day that he still has his medals. It was his ribbons that he threw away. It was the symbolism of the act that was important. I throw away a set of ribbons 2 or 3 times a year.
Kerry said the other day that he still has his medals. It was his ribbons that he threw away. It was the symbolism of the act that was important. I throw away a set of ribbons 2 or 3 times a year.
Kerry said the other day that he still has his medals. It was his ribbons that he threw away. It was the symbolism of the act that was important. I throw away a set of ribbons 2 or 3 times a year.
which is kind of funny because I read an interview and when the reporter asked him "If you threw you medals away, whos medals are on the wall?" and kerry answered " I threw a friends medals not mine"
oh what a tangled web....
MY grandpa used to say never trust a woman that dyes her hair, if she'll lie about something so small she would lie about anything. (it used to be considered a trashy thing to do I guess)
It is my understanding that lost time is annotated on an LES (Leave Earnings Statement)
Yes. The President's should either be at the personnel records facility in MO, here in Austin at the TxNG bureau or both. There may even be a copy registered at a courthouse somewhere.
I don't think his record was affected if it was there. I also forgot about the NGB 22 which is the state equivalent to a DD214.
Facts About the St. Louis Fire
I am seriously convinced that a bunch of idiots work at the St. Louis facility. I requested a copy of fiche containing my EERs/NCOERs last year. They told me that it did not exist. A friend of mine who retired two months after I did received a copy of his fiche four months after his request.
They (retirement counselors and personnel officers) warned us about St. Louis before we retired. The first thing we were told was to make 20 certified copies and register 10 of the copies at court houses. They also said to never expect any cooperation from St. Louis.
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