Bush to announce Missions to Moon (!) and Mars in a big speech next week

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matt426malm

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2003
1,280
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Originally posted by: TheAudit
Going to Mars isn't doable now. Heck, even building anything on the Moon can't be done today. How long have we been building the International Space Station? Years now and we've only been bringing up small pieces at a time to be assembled. We don't have the means to transport heavy materials to the Moon. And then you would have to figure out how to supply the Moon Base with oxygen and water and how to heat and cool it.

I think it's a worthwhile endeavor and it's great to be talking about it but Congress would have to approve the money to do the research and development to make it all possible. A lunar base as a steppingstone to Mars would be a great thing.

Well of course it isn't doable RIGHT now. Name problems that you think a Mars mission would have if there was a 10 year development period.

It's probably easier to support a base on Mars then the moon. Oxygen fuel and water are for the most part on Mars in EXTREMELY greater quantities. Plans for taking oxygen out of moon rocks are very expensive because the reaction require mucho energy. Taking oxygen out of the CO2 in martian air requires much less energy.

ISS has no purpose short of zero-gravity experiments. It is a waist of money IMO. I have no idea why they didn't design a space station that would have been several large modules taken up by a heavy lift rocket. Possibly because they needed something to justify the shuttle.

Put I'm not getting my hopes up until congress approves the bill.

 

thomsbrain

Lifer
Dec 4, 2001
18,148
1
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Originally posted by: Ameesh
election year hype, he's still a bastard

yeah, especially when you look at how much it will cost? where's he going to get the money? oh yeah, MORE DEBT!

the only thing worse than the tax and spend liberals is the no-tax and spend-even-more conservatives.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,933
566
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Originally posted by: thomsbrain
Originally posted by: Ameesh
election year hype, he's still a bastard

yeah, especially when you look at how much it will cost? where's he going to get the money? oh yeah, MORE DEBT!

the only thing worse than the tax and spend liberals is the no-tax and spend-even-more conservatives.
Particularly when the administration has been engaged in talks with NASA officials about this for over a year. Damned...uhh...more than one year before the election year politics!

rolleye.gif
 

mAdD INDIAN

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
7,804
1
0
tcsenter: Good post. Your right. We value luxury over necessety. We all do it. I believe its called high commodity potential and low commodity potential.

Material goods are at the high potential, while other things (that can't be signified by its monetary value..but may be more important) are at low potentials.

Simple analogy would be cd players to actual guitar music. It takes to much time to learn the guitar and play music yourself (which sounsd much richer and fulfilling, so we go out and buy a music cd hwihc is easier and gives us that music instantly..even tho we dont have teh benefit of making it ourselves).

Sorry for the ramble.
 

stormbv

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2000
3,446
1
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Originally posted by: mAdD INDIAN
tcsenter: Good post. Your right. We value luxury over necessety. We all do it. I believe its called high commodity potential and low commodity potential.

Material goods are at the high potential, while other things (that can't be signified by its monetary value..but may be more important) are at low potentials.

Simple analogy would be cd players to actual guitar music. It takes to much time to learn the guitar and play music yourself (which sounsd much richer and fulfilling, so we go out and buy a music cd hwihc is easier and gives us that music instantly..even tho we dont have teh benefit of making it ourselves).

Sorry for the ramble.

That's not living. That's sitting around bored, waiting to die. I'm not like that, so please don't lump me with yourselves.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,933
566
126
Originally posted by: mAdD INDIAN
tcsenter: Good post. Your right. We value luxury over necessety. We all do it. I believe its called high commodity potential and low commodity potential.

Material goods are at the high potential, while other things (that can't be signified by its monetary value..but may be more important) are at low potentials.

Simple analogy would be cd players to actual guitar music. It takes to much time to learn the guitar and play music yourself (which sounsd much richer and fulfilling, so we go out and buy a music cd hwihc is easier and gives us that music instantly..even tho we dont have teh benefit of making it ourselves).

Sorry for the ramble.
We all do it to varying degrees, but generally speaking, Americans have taken it to an absurd level. However, as Europe and other 'older' societies become more affluent, they are seeing the same trend (consumerism and materialism). Someone once said that affluence will be the next fascism...

Persistant and progressive affluence seems to have an intoxicating effect on people. Generation after generation of "good times" seems to cause people to lose a healthy bit of cautionary perspective and become more disposed to foolish "no worries" thinking. We think we have some kind of God-given right to be better-off than our parents while only working half as long, half as hard, and playing twice as much, and we sure as hell try to live like we are...on credit.

I was one of them in my early 20's, damned near charged myself into oblivion. I didn't understand my parents when they gave me lectures against "living in the moment". What are they talking about? I didn't understand it because I had never been where they were (Great Depression Era poverty).

They meant, that $400 you spent on a Kenwood receiver would in 30 years be worth $3,207.67 @ 7% interest compounded quarterly.

30 years? Say what? But I want gratification now - today!

Of course, they didn't mean "work all day, put all your money in the bank, never have any fun, retire with a lot of money, then die the next day", but at 16 years of age, that's what I thought they were telling me. Because parents, you know, when you're 16, are oppressive people who derive their only happiness in life from seeing that you don't have any fun. lol!

But what surprises me is, this mentality is no longer exclusive to youthful short-sightedness and impetuousness. Its become pervasive throughout our culture. Look no further than the bitter reaction among affluent retirees to the Medicare Drug Benefit which largely will benefit low-income seniors. The mentality was "what's in it for me?"

An article entitled "Florida Elderly Feel Let Down By Drug Benefit" by New York Times reporter Robert Pear captured some of this sentiment among retirees vacationing in Palm Beach and Hollywood, Florida. Most of these people owned two homes, one for summer and a Florida condo for winter, and the attitude was like....'We had to limit travel in our $200,000 motor home to only 30 days per year instead of our usual 90 days because our prescription drug costs are so high. This drug plan will do nothing to help us.'

Something is wrong when retired people who can afford two homes think they deserve a Medicare drug benefit so their prescription drug costs don't cut-in to their lifestyle. Yet, that summarizes perfectly the American mentality on health care.

$7,500 for a plasma TV? What a great deal, show me the nearest showroom!

$120 for a doctor's office exam? Jesus H. Christ what is this world coming to, health care costs are out of control!

This is not an issue of ability, but willingness, to afford health care.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
34,755
1,927
126
Originally posted by: tcsenter
This is not an issue of ability, but willingness, to afford health care.
Man, healthcare costs kick my butt. $1600 for a total of 10 hours of physical therapy on my knee? $450 to test my blood? $150 to say we need to charge you $450 to test your blood?

That stuff gets expensive when you're working 7 days a week and making $1000/mo.

 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
12
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Everyone complaining that it's a waste of money is being rather shortsighted. Look at all the benefits that came from the space race in the 60s/70s.

Furthermore spending a trillion dollars on a mission to mars is not the same as transporting someone there and back while flushing a trillion dollar bill down the toilet. That trillion dollars goes to employing thousands and thousands of people for many years. It breeds new technology which helps all of us.

How did the US get out of the great depression? The government started many massive public works projects to employ the people and get money flowing again. Spending money != wasting money.
 

m2kewl

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2001
8,263
0
0
Originally posted by: Chaotic42
Originally posted by: tcsenter
This is not an issue of ability, but willingness, to afford health care.
Man, healthcare costs kick my butt. $1600 for a total of 10 hours of physical therapy on my knee? $450 to test my blood? $150 to say we need to charge you $450 to test your blood?

That stuff gets expensive when you're working 7 days a week and making $1000/mo.

you better start making more, b/c it isn't getting any cheaper!

and yes it's all election year hype, b/c GWB is no kennedy.. :p
 

virtuamike

Diamond Member
Oct 13, 2000
7,845
13
81
Originally posted by: silverpig
Everyone complaining that it's a waste of money is being rather shortsighted. Look at all the benefits that came from the space race in the 60s/70s.

Furthermore spending a trillion dollars on a mission to mars is not the same as transporting someone there and back while flushing a trillion dollar bill down the toilet. That trillion dollars goes to employing thousands and thousands of people for many years. It breeds new technology which helps all of us.

How did the US get out of the great depression? The government started many massive public works projects to employ the people and get money flowing again. Spending money != wasting money.

Ummm, it wasn't the public works projects that got the US out of the depression. Hell, PWA doesn't even exist anymore. WWII got us out.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,933
566
126
Man, healthcare costs kick my butt. $1600 for a total of 10 hours of physical therapy on my knee? $450 to test my blood? $150 to say we need to charge you $450 to test your blood?

That stuff gets expensive when you're working 7 days a week and making $1000/mo.
Of course, I was speaking in a collective sense about the values and priorities of our society. There indeed are people whose medical costs are crushing financially, as opposed to merely 'cutting-in' to their play time and lifestyle, however deeply.

But you cannot deny that millions - literally - millions of Americans piss-away substantial portions of their income during their prime wage-earning years on materialistic "instant gratification" pursuits to the exclusion of things like savings and retirement. Then, when crunch-time comes, whether its being laid-off, or being injured, some unpredictable (but not entirely unforeseeable) event puts a crushing strain on their finances, they groan loudly, not in acknowlegement of all the money they pissed-away and shouldn't have, but blaming some external target.

In all too many cases, its not that they "can't" afford it, its that they made a lot of choices of their own volition which had the effect of siphoning away a substantial portion of the income they earned over many years and putting themselves in a very tenuous or vulnerable position.

I'm sorry, but nobody has any right to complain about a $20,000 hospital bill when they've pissed-away THREE TIMES that amount on motorcycles, boats, ATVs, SUVs they don't need, sports cars they don't need, home entertainment centers, vacations, lottery tickets, casinos, pool tables, sporting goods, etc. etc.
 

Squisher

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
21,204
66
91
I think most of the space program is an excessive luxury and would prefer the money spent elsewhere.

Who doesn't crave knowledge, but at what cost?

The advances in technology that might be gained by the massive amounts of money being funneled into the program to solve the problems of space flight could be obtained much more efficiently if the money had been spent directly on those technologies rather than coming about as off-shoots of the space program.

Satellite technology=high benefit to cost ratio

Far Space exploration=low benefit to cost ratio

 

mAdD INDIAN

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
7,804
1
0
Originally posted by: stormbv
Originally posted by: mAdD INDIAN
tcsenter: Good post. Your right. We value luxury over necessety. We all do it. I believe its called high commodity potential and low commodity potential.

Material goods are at the high potential, while other things (that can't be signified by its monetary value..but may be more important) are at low potentials.

Simple analogy would be cd players to actual guitar music. It takes to much time to learn the guitar and play music yourself (which sounsd much richer and fulfilling, so we go out and buy a music cd hwihc is easier and gives us that music instantly..even tho we dont have teh benefit of making it ourselves).

Sorry for the ramble.

That's not living. That's sitting around bored, waiting to die. I'm not like that, so please don't lump me with yourselves.

I'm not saying one shouldn't indulge themselves. But there should be limits.

it's like drinking. Its ok to drink in moderation, but its not good to be an alchoholic.
 

TheAudit

Diamond Member
May 2, 2003
4,194
0
0
I can't wait until Bush builds some affordable housing on the moon.

I have my eye on this sweet two bedroom dome. It's right next door to an oxygen plant and across the street from a Starbucks.