• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Bush officially stepping up war on drugs, 5 year plan seeks to decrease use by 25%

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.


<< can you name some household foods that can cause cancer, kill brain cells, and lower sperm counts >>

No, but I can name foods that, if abused, can eventually lead to heart attacks. Also, please note that marijuana causes NONE of the symptoms you described. The only one that may be remotely true is that it causes cancer, which has yet to be proven. EVEN IF it were proven, that's only due to smoking it. Vaporizing marijuana or cooking and eating it eliminates all chances of getting cancer. Want proof? here

<< Apparently, you are the one needing the "research"............prove with facts any of your claims please........... As for alcohol........you can claim anything you wish concerning it! I've stated several times I do not drink alcohol, could care less if it were made illegal, and also consider it in line with other drugs in it's effects and abuse................you're not telling me anything, but, the fact remains that throughout the world there are those whom do not agree with what you describe, or I concur with...............several leading physicians annually post findings on the advantages health wise to alcohol consumption, in limited quantities, in place of using drugs like blood thinners...............Also, can you deny that one can partake of a limited amount of aldohol without having altering affects????? Thsi can and has been proven. Now, on the other hand, what other possible use does say, Meth have other than to produce a mind altering affect????? >>

prove with facts any of my claims? Here, read this and see just how harmful marijuana is, especially when its vaporized or cooked instead of smoked. And yes, as dangerous of a drug as alcohol is, when used responsibly it can be beneficial to the user. The same goes for the vast majority of drugs out there

<< jobberd - I'm old enough and experienced enough to know that arguing such an idiotic point will simply lower me to your point of inanity. They're obviously different, there is nothing to argue or discuss and I generally don't like sophistry on points like this. If you want to believe that cheeseburgers and pot/heroin are the same thing, there is no logic I can use to sway you from that point, so I'm not even going to bother. >>

Well then why did you attempt to in the other thread? I refuted your comments there with simple logic and for a while you did respond. And I never said they're the same thing, only that there are similarities with one another. Perhaps if you actually responded to my posts instead of writing full ones explaining WHY you won't respond to them you could see what I'm trying to say.
 


<< Oh, and BTW.......I'm not "spitting out rhetoric"...............these are my conclusions and opinions! I could care less if you sit around and smoke dope all day..........your loss not mine! Problem is............sometimes............not EVERY time, but sometimes, especially when it includes children, this casual use of pot leads to other more dangerous tendancies..............would it not be better to avoid them completely at least as far as children are concerned??? >>



This is a pretty weak argument here. Oh no, when people drive cars the problem is....sometimes...not EVERY time, but sometimes, especially when it includes children, this casual act of driving on the interstate leads to wrecks which includes injury and death.

You could say that dumb sh!t for a million and one different things.

Drugs aren't the problem, its the people using drugs. If you can smoke dope all day and life your life without affecting mine, why the hell do I care. Stay out of my business. Don't make laws that restrict what I can do to myself without adversely affecting others. If I committe a crime while high or drunk, you're tax money should be there to have officers to arrest and prosecute me. But spending my money to ensure that I can't get drugs that I want is rediculous. And the part that burns most pro-drug activists is how fvcking hypocritical the government is about this. Cigs and alcohol are legal but weed isn't? Coke isn't? You gotta be kidding. Coke can kill you...so what, alcohol has a much bigger body count right now. Weed can be harmful...so are plenty of things you ingest on a daily basis.

And you can relate this to food. We are considered the most obese people in the world. Over eating is a problem that should be as offensive as drug use. I've seen plenty of obese parents with children that can barely stand because they are so big. There is the ten year old kid that is always eating and huffs and puffs to get up a flight a stairs. But I don't see you crying that this is a punishable offense. And this is happening to the child right now. They start over eating from the time they are born. Parents encourage it.

What most pro-drug folks want is for the drug money that is being squandered on silly programs like Dare be put to a different use. Throw more in for teachers. Require a better drug program in schools to teach the affects of such drugs and why they shouldn't be used. Teach good eating habits. Teach manners in public and how to behave around others. Quit throwing it away on preventing people from buying them, housing peaceful users in jail. Really, put the money into treatment centers. If you think they don't work, then put the money into researching ways to help those that want help.

There is always going to be drugs. If you believe in Jesus, then you know his best party trick was turning water into wine. He was always drinking wine. People have always loved drugs and altering their minds. Why not? Why do you have to be so pure? What good is that doing you? Maybe you get a few more years to live...but who cares? If I killed myself right now, why would you care? Then again, why do I care about what you do and don't do...I don't unless you are a voting member of the government or plan to be one.

 


<< please note that marijuana causes NONE of the symptoms you described. >>



actually they have all been proven and before you say, wheres the proof, suck it trebek

emeril says BAM

there are hundreds of other sites that say the same thing, go look at them if you don't believe this one

edit: who the hell eats marijuana
 
Arguing this here is getting nowhere..............all I can say is I'm glad that the worldwide concensus is that drugs should be and should remain illegal. For every reason and link you give in favor of your drugs, there will be at least an equal or greater number showing opposing views and "facts"!😉 So, in essence, this is a pointless conversation/discussion which will never be solved, or won by either side!
 


<<
edit: who the hell eats marijuana
>>



Lots of people. Never had a KIND brownie? Really, brownies and cakes are popular with pot users that like baking (well, what pot user doesn't like to bake?).

 


<< edit: who the hell eats marijuana >>



Ain't been to college have you? If you ever go don't eat brownies at a party. Dope brownies are really fairly common for the more cooking inclined doper, not only do they get high they satisfy some of the munchies in getting high.
 


<< Arguing this here is getting nowhere..............all I can say is I'm glad that the worldwide concensus is that drugs should be and should remain illegal. For every reason and link you give in favor of your drugs, there will be at least an equal or greater number showing opposing views and "facts"!😉 So, in essence, this is a pointless conversation/discussion which will never be solved, or won by either side! >>



I'll agree that neither side can win...

 


<< Ain't been to college have you? If you ever go don't eat brownies at a party. Dope brownies are really fairly common for the more cooking inclined doper, not only do they get high they satisfy some of the munchies in getting high. >>



If you ever go see Phish, moe., String Cheese, Phil Lesh, Ratdog, Widespread Panic....don't eat the brownies there either.
 


<< It's funny how so many people bash any attempt by the government to reduce drug usage in this country. Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that the people doing the bashing like to smoke a little pot or sniff a little coke from time to time >>

Yeah right. And it's logical that you are a sexual deviant because you post nonsense at forums on the internet..what ?? it's not logical?? well neither is your assertion.

I don't do drugs and I don't want my tax dollars being wasted trying to combat it. I'd rather see the money go to education and the drugs taxed for more revenue. I'd also like to see the righteous few stop telling others how they live their lives unless they agree to do it in front of a target at a shooting range, especially the School Marms here
 


<< actually they have all been proven and before you say, wheres the proof, suck it trebek

emeril says BAM

there are hundreds of other sites that say the same thing, go look at them if you don't believe this one
>>

Did you even READ the link I gave? Also, your link says nothing about marijuana killing brain cells. Even if it did, it does much less then alcohol which is a perfectly legal drug.



<< edit: who the hell eats marijuana >>

I guess you've never heard of special brownies? Jeez, it even mentions it in your link:

<< The advantage of using the
enteral route (by mouth or suppository) bypassing the lung, and allowing for
a more prolonged effect which decreases the frequency of an inhaled
preparation was demonstrated. The added advantage of this route is that It
avoids the toxic effects of the tars and other noxious chemicals contained in
the smoke.
>>

Did you even read your link fully?
 


<<

<< Arguing this here is getting nowhere..............all I can say is I'm glad that the worldwide concensus is that drugs should be and should remain illegal. For every reason and link you give in favor of your drugs, there will be at least an equal or greater number showing opposing views and "facts"!😉 So, in essence, this is a pointless conversation/discussion which will never be solved, or won by either side! >>



I'll agree that neither side can win...
>>


LOL! What's sad is..........you can't even agree to disagree with some of you!
rolleye.gif


Come up with all the BS comparisons you will, but, the fact is, not only the majority of people, but, the majority of physicians and other scholars worldwide agree that drug use is a real problem! If you choose to do it.............I suppose that is your perogative, but, do not expect sympathy from others when problems arrise due to drugs. I'm also well aware that marajuana use is most likely much safer than alcohol or cigarettes................that still does not make it right either! One has to do what is good for your body and mind..................if you honestly feel smoking pot and doing meth, or abusing alcohol and smoking cigarettes is in your best intrests.............please, feel free to take the risks and proceed as planned...........😉
rolleye.gif


OK..........you edited out your "hitler" comparison before I posted.........😉
 

I think we argued this point in a few more threads this past few weeks.

The conclusion again:

there will be those that will believe blindly in what THE MAN is telling them and not do any research for themselves to learn some more about the facts. so there is no point in arguing with them.
just like there is no point to argue with those that will not do any research and just say that drugs don't do any harm. they do. alcohol does too. it's a drug. it's legal. it kills more ppl than other drugs.

so the point? if one drug that kills is legal why shouldn't they all be? because there is more money to be made by fighting a "war on drugs". after all it's an economics based society right?

so ppl. do your research and then come up with your own coclusions, but until you do that, leave the freaking subject alone if you just base your opinion on tv or your local pothead.
 
It seems that some people are willing to make half the population into DEA agents who will systematically put the other half in jail. Get a clue peeps, the law enforcement and prison industries are growing crazy mad!
 
Alright I am leaving work so this will be my final post for the day and I hope this tread has died by tomorrow. First of all the question about what foods are really harmfull, well almost all of them are. For example seafoodcan contain large amounts of mercury and how about water? When I say this I am not even talking about the possibilty of lead, those plastic bottles that everyone buys are actually putting plastic in your blood stream. You may have also seen the article that was on fark about flame retardent is being found in breast milk.
Also, I am pretty sure that even the hard core anti drug people would agree that the government is going to far

Edit: One more thing....Its very easy to condem what you do not understand. "

<< See, I think drugs have done some good things for us. I really do, If you don't believe that drugs have done good things for us do me a favor go home tonight and take all your albums all your tapes all your cds and burn them. Because you know what the musicians that have made all that great music that have enhanced your lives throughout the years..reeeeaaaal high on drugs. >>





<< "Today a young man on acid realized realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. That we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death. Life is only a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves." >>

 


<< Want proof? here >>



Am I the only one that isn't swayed by pro-marijuana "proof" that comes from a site operated by the "organization to reform marijuana laws?" 🙂

I've been through college, and I've already had plenty of marijuana-saturated druggies try to explain the benefits of pot to me. (Generally around 1AM, around finals time)

My scientific findings:
[*]I've never met any pot-head who wouldn't be better off without the pot
[*]Pot makes you oblivious to how badly you stink of pot. Smoke in the shower or something.

If Bush thinks he can round up all the druggies with a few more dollars, I'm all for it. It seems like 90% of the crime I hear of is linked to drugs.

-Russ
 


<< It seems like 90% of the crime I hear of is linked to drugs. >>



Oh please!

It's more related to economic problems.

Though I would agree that a lot of those people might use drugs as well. But they probably use them to help them feel better about how bad their lives are.

But I will also admit that SOME of them my be in that situation because of drugs.

I wish they would draw a line between pot and other drugs though.
I'm sure there are very few instances of pot user's (if POT is ALL they use) robbing or killing someone for money for POT. Probably MORE likely that some one hooked on booze would do those kinds of things.

Some people have seen too much "reefer madness" 😉
 


<< It seems like 90% of the crime I hear of is linked to drugs. >>



Might that be because drug use is illegal? And the drug trade is an illegal market? Jesus people, arguing facts isn't going to work here because for every 'fact' you state to support your argument, someone else can state the opposite 'fact' to support theirs. The whole issue has been so muddled by half-truths and propaganda by both sides, the only way to to argue it is by what makes BASIC, LOGICAL SENSE.

And I'll go ahead and spell it out for those who slept through it in history class. PROHIBITION DOES NOT WORK.
 


<< Am I the only one that isn't swayed by pro-marijuana "proof" that comes from a site operated by the "organization to reform marijuana laws?" >>

NORML's goal is to be heard by the government. Any amount of misinformation on that page would result in the government dismissing all their cases away. They aren't exactly one-sided either, they state the benefits and dangers of marijuana use.

<< I've never met any pot-head who wouldn't be better off without the pot >>

I've never met an alcoholic who wouldn't be better off without the alcohol.

<< Pot makes you oblivious to how badly you stink of pot. Smoke in the shower or something. >>

My god, he's right! criminalize it!

<< If Bush thinks he can round up all the druggies with a few more dollars, I'm all for it. It seems like 90% of the crime I hear of is linked to drugs. >>

If you legalize it, the majority of drug-linked crime disappears.
 
Bush is out on the campaign trail masqueraiding as the leader of reform for the country at every campaign stop in one way or another. He has yet to come up with anything that is his own. This is the same crap as Reagan and "Just say NO". How can anyone take him seriously when he never confeesses his own drug use, and yet he chides parents for having kids that use drugs when he can't even control his own. WTF:disgust:

If you ask me(and I know most of you wouldn't😀),I think his administration has run flat. He has no issues, he has re-nigged on most all his original campaign promises, his economic stymulus program is in the toilet and produced nothing to gain consumer confidence. He and Cheney continue to stonewall congress and are forcing a legal battle that more than likely will show inproprieties in how energy policy was derived, all thw while major corporations are toppling like dominoes and fat cats with golden parachutes are pleading the 5th, daring anyone to take them on.

The only thing he has is the war on terrorism, and sadly he is riding that misery foe all its worth and for his politacal gain. Yet ,the moron once again puts the US in a bad light globally with his bushism Evil Axis tyraid in what should have been a better thought out speech for the State of the Union address.

This show just gets better and better. And in an election year no less. (Oh,that is truly why we have a daily new policy update as he travels around the country setting up $1000 plate dinners for the republican party. Too bad he reads them out of reagans book of secrets to get the next message to deliver.😉)
 


<< In 1999 the Arrestees Drug Abuse Monitoring (ADAM) program collected data from more than 30,000 adult male arrestees in 34 sites and from more than 10,000 adult female arrestees in 32 sites. Data were collected from more than 2,500 juvenile male detainees in 9 sites, and more than 400 juvenile females detainees in 6 sites.

In most sites, about two-thirds of the adult arrestees and more than half of the juvenile arrestees tested positive for at least one drug.

For adult arrestees testing positive for marijuana use ranged from:

51% in Omaha to 28% in Las Vegas for males.
39% in Oklahoma City to 9% in Laredo for females.
>>



(Bureau of Justice Statistics: Drug use and crime)

So, of the 40,000 arrestees they gathered data from, more than half tested positive for some sort of drug. Varying by site, as many as half of them tested positive for marijuana.

-Russ
 
I will step in line with Brutuskend and say that those statistics, like all statistics, are misleading. First, you must consider, "How many of those people were arrested because they were clearly under the influence?" Second, and more importantly, you should ask yourself, "Are the problems caused by drugs, or is it just that people with problems are more likely to end up using drugs? "

Furthermore, if drugs are such horrible things, why are so many European governments decriminalizing the softer drugs? We'd like to think that we're the pinnacle of thought here in the US, but we are horribly conservative here, thus we are behind the world in political trends. As per the person who said that drug use may go up as a result of decriminalization, you are only partially correct. In Holland, following decriminalization, drug use peaked for a short period of time, then fell back to lower levels than when it was illegal.

Why the extremes? I don't see much of the phrase "causual/recreational marijuana user." Instead, it is always the extreme: potheads. Propagnda.

And finally, I'll let New Scientist's Special Marijuana Report do the speaking (this is only one article out of 20+):

Most people think of marijuana users as dreamers with the attention span of a gnat and no memory worth the name. Wrong. The picture emerging from psychology labs is that there is at most a kernel of truth in this stereotype, while some studies find no evidence of even subtle mental impairment in heavy users. And even those that do are open to a range of interpretations -- not necessarily worrying to marijuana users.

Take the latest findings on which the above claim is based. Harrison Pope and his team at Harvard University compared 65 college students who smoked marijuana daily with a control group of students who smoked it most every other month. After a drug-free day, the subjects completed a range of standard mental tests. Mostly, differences between the two groups were slight. When it came to remembering lists of words, for example, the heavy users recalled about 1 in 10 fewer words than the light users.

But in one test the heavy users underperformed more noticeably. The test involved watching and mimicking the simple rules used by an experimenter to match cards with coloured shapes on them, and then adapting whenever the rule changed. Students who rarely smoked marijuana mistakenly carried on with the old sorting rule on about 5 out of 100 occasions, while heavy users made about 8 mistakes. Pope takes this seriously. "In the real world," he says, "people have to deal all the time with situations in which rules are changing..."

Fine. But over the years, much stronger claims have surfaced: heavy marijuana users do badly at work or school, are more likely to be delinquent and develop psychiatric problems, or have abnormal brain waves. Time and again, however, such studies encounter the same objection: are the problems caused by smoking marijuana, or is it just that people with problems are more likely to end up using marijuana heavily?

In the case of delinquency, schizophrenia and mental illnesses, the balance of the evidence points to the second explanation. Marijuana doesn't cause the problems, although it may make them worse. Some schizophrenics, for example, are drawn to the drug because it eases their sense of alienation. And most researchers now accept that the evidence linking marijuana to abnormal brain waves vanishes when people with psychiatric problems, illnesses or a history of general drug abuse are excluded from studies.

But what about subtler problems like the card sorting deficiencies? After all, it might just be that smart college students tend to smoke lightly while others smoke heavily. In which case the card sorting results may have little to do with marijuana.

Here opinions diverge. Pope believes the deficiency does have something to with marijuana because his team controlled for such obvious things as IQ differences, psychiatric histories and heavy use of other drugs. But others are not convinced. What worries some critics is that in this study, as in others, the women drug users did so much better than the men in most tests.

Deviant males


"I know of no reason why there should be a gender difference in cognitive response to cannabis," says John Morgan, a pharmacologist at the City University of New York Medical School and co-author of a controversial new book advocating decriminalisation, Marijuana Myths Marijuana Facts. Morgan believes the reason the males underperform in such studies is that they are "deviant" in subtle ways that escape the researchers' notice.

And what if the poor test results do turn out to be linked to marijuana? It doesn't automatically follow that heavy marijuana use is causing long-lasting brain damage. One possibility is that, deprived of their favourite drug for a day, heavy users suffer withdrawal symptoms or become so grumpy and distracted that they do badly in tests. Another is that a single drug-free day is not long enough for the effect of their last smoke to have disappeared. The Harvard team's follow-on experiments, in which marijuana users are being tested over a 28-day "dry" period, should provide answers.


Other research suggests that evidence of dramatic mental decline is unlikely to be found, even as a result of long-term heavy use. Over the past 25 years, Jack Fletcher at the University of Texas in Houston and his colleagues have been visiting Costa Rica to test the mental skills of very heavy users. Although some of them have smoked 10 joints a day for more than 30 years, their ability to learn and remember lists of words is only mildly impaired (see diagram below). And even when struggling with more demanding tasks, such as recalling information while pressing a tapper as fast as possible, their scores fall well within the normal range.


Spot the difference: What cannabis does to memory skills

"The effects are subtle and subclinical," says Brian Page, an anthropologist from the University of Miami, who was involved in the study. "Although they could be bad for somebody who's trying to be an arbitrage trader or Wall Street lawyer." And, Page adds: "People who sell bicycles had better not ride while under the influence."

Or at any rate common sense suggests they should not. The verdict from research into the impact of marijuana on road safety skills is less clear. In Britain as many as 1 in 10 motorists involved in serious accidents test positive for cannabis. And figures as high as 37 per cent have emerged from studies in urban areas of the US. However, many of these drivers also test positive for alcohol, and even the cases involving just cannabis cannot be equated with people driving under the influence because the drug lingers so long in the body.

In driving simulators, marijuana does impair visual skills and mental dexterity. But studies of actual driving show that even high doses of marijuana have less impact than alcohol, perhaps because smoking it doesn't usually make people so reckless. In one study, low doses of marijuana made drivers more cautious.

The same broad message is likely to be true for the subtler, longer-lasting effects of marijuana on the brain. Researchers like Pope and Morgan may look at the data very differently, but they agree about one thing: heavy boozing is worse for your neurons than dope.
 


<<

Though I would agree that a lot of those people might use drugs as well. But they probably use them to help them feel better about how bad their lives are.
>>



there was a nice discussion about this a few weeks ago on kuro5hin if i remember corectly.
someone pointed to a study done of primates in which they gave them free access to cocaine.
they noticed that the alpha males/females (i.e.) the leaders of the groups of primates never used the cocaine, while the lower caste of monkeys used it quite frequently. they concluded that being in charge and having the power is it's own drug, while those primates lower on the social scale in the group abused drugs to feel better about their situation and to help them cope.

they were trying to make some parallels i guess to humans, but the social/economic interactions for humans are a lot more complex than the primates. still a good point though.
 
There has been a lot of good discussion here, and a lot of insanity.

First off, alcohol is a drug. Anyone that insists that alcohol is not a mood altering substance is either insane, or has never been drunk. More crimes are comitted under the influence of alcohol than under all illegal drugs combined. Alcohol kills more each year than every other drug combined. If you want references, PM me.

Second off, decriminalization works. Much of Europe (England, Switzerland, Netherlands to name a few) have tried decriminalization to varying degrees and with varying degrees of success. The goal of decriminalization is to seperate crime from addiction, and allow addicts to deal with their addiction without having to deal with legal problems too. Herion/methadone maintenance programs don't create new addicts - they allow addicts to function as productive members of society without being forced to turn to crime. A friend of mine works at a methadone clinic as a counselor, and she relays a little known fact: methadone clinics will turn away people. Generally if someone pukes from thier first methadone dose (meaning they are not really severely addicted to opiates yet) they will generally be told come back later. If you want references to scientific studies in this area, PM me.

Third off, controlling the supply perpetuates availability. Numerous economics papers have been written analyzing the "war on drugs" from a purely economic perspective, and almost all conclude that supply would decline from lack of profit margins if the prices on drugs were not artificially inflated by their illegal status. Elsewhere in the world, drug cultivation has become economically institutionalized by the fact that few other crops can net comparable money. Columbia has coca growers unions for pete's sake!

Fourth off, I don't use drugs and I don't advocate their use. I'm no stoner. 🙂 I feel that the US drug policy is more about subjugating a segment of the population, cleverly bringing racial prejudice into the law by varied penalties that are most severe for drugs used mainly by the poorest segments of our population and a refusal to acknowledge accepted scientific knowledge in the field of addiction studies (and psycholoogy/medicine in general) that points repeatedly to one fact: controling demand works, controlling supply increases prices and crime.

This is an important topic to talk about, as it will affect nearly everyone. If not yourself, it is statistically likely someone in your family or one of your best friends will have a run in with substance abuse. How such incidents are handled can radically shape the level of prejudice or compassion in our society. What kind of place do YOU want to live in?

edit: typos
 


<< How such incidents are handled can radically shape the level of prejudice or compassion in our society. >>



I'll be the first to admit that I'm severely predujiced and compassion-free when it comes to criminals.

The message we should be sending is: "work hard, be responsible for yourself." Decriminalizing drugs and shielding addicts from the reality that they created for themselves doesn't help anyone.

I'd much rather see my tax money spent tracking down drugs and locking up the criminals who sell and buy them, then see it wasted on buying methodone and paying welfare to support the drug trade. I save my compassion for people who end up in bad situations by no fault of their own. I've seen plenty of people in poverty and pain, and they got by on hard work, without drugs. Nobody is forced into drug use.

Anybody who uses drugs within my field of vision is reported to the police. It's illegal, and I don't have any tolerance for that kind of nonsense.

-Russ
 
Back
Top