Bush, Jesus, and Easter blessings

[etech]

LilBlinbBlahIce

Exactly, Tariq Aziz is a Christian, so what are you saying the Iraqi's had no religious freedom Alistar? It's propbably the only country in the ME that was somewhat religiously tolerant, lets hope is stays that way. As for Afghanistan, we never free them from the Soviets, get your facts straight, we armed them to fight our enemy and then abandoned them to anarchy.

Yes. the US helped the Afghanis fight the Soviets than we very politely got the hell out of their country just as now many people are calling for the US to get the hell out of Iraq after removing their tyrant.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

It's either be accused of hegemony or actually stay and help set up a stable government.

As for BBD, despite his protestations to the contrary, he doesn't like Pres. Bush and will do or say anything about him. That is all.

 

[AAjax]

Originally posted by: Ultra Quiet
Quit trolling Doc. It's beneath you.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Go dig up my posts. Sure, I may on occasion get a little overzealous . . . but often it is an attempt to substitute fact (Bush has a track record of incompetence in personal affairs, business affairs, and as a politician) for fiction (Bush is a heralded servant of Christ, has beaucoup business acumen, and is the patron saint of political leadership).

That's the part that really galls me. The same people who feel Bush can do no wrong would have crucified Clinton (or any other Democrat) who carried Bush's baggage. The only reason Bush is President is because the RNC insiders annointed him, in spite of his lack of qualifications and ability. I think I could stomach this if the Republicans were honest and admitted, "Yeah, he's a doofus but we thought Gore was worse." Instead, they pretend Bush is wonderful.

I always thought that was such a shame because they really had a strong leader in McCain. Not perfect, of course, and nowhere near as easy for the big donors to manipulate, but he would have been a President most of the country could support. Oh well.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Go dig up my posts. Sure, I may on occasion get a little overzealous . . . but often it is an attempt to substitute fact (Bush has a track record of incompetence in personal affairs, business affairs, and as a politician) for fiction (Bush is a heralded servant of Christ, has beaucoup business acumen, and is the patron saint of political leadership).

One other thought: When someone claims to have personal direction from God, don't we usually institutionalize them?

 

[Michael]

1) Bush won the election. That galls so many here. How can someone so stupid and with so much baggage win? And then win again in the mid-term elections.

2) BBD is a Bush-hater. He is blinded by his ideology (as are the vast majority of posters on any Internet BBS).

Case in point - tort reform would go a long way towards helping the healthcare system. That is a big Bush initiative. Award caps in California (who would have thought that such a liberal state has that type of law in place?) makes it almsot affordable to have malpractice insurance.

Case in point - the different healthcare companies robbed the government blind and Clinton's government did zero to stop it. The worst of the Enron-type activites also happened under Clinton/Gore and the damage is still being felt.

I have no idea how BBD became an expert on what a "good" Christian is. I guess he's enough of an expert that he could label Bush a bad one. I don't know why he is, BBD didn't present any points to back it up.

I find nothing wrong with the President of the USA with troops in the field making a special point to pray for Americans. I could even argue that praying for the American forces is almsot the same as praying for the world.

Michael

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: Michael
1)

I find nothing wrong with the President of the USA with troops in the field making a special point to pray for Americans. I could even argue that praying for the American forces is almsot the same as praying for the world.

Michael

What? How do you figure that? Just out of curiosity.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Case in point - tort reform would go a long way towards helping the healthcare system. That is a big Bush initiative. Award caps in California (who would have thought that such a liberal state has that type of law in place?) makes it almsot affordable to have malpractice insurance.
Utter nonsense . . . CA instituted tort reform AND insurance caps at the SAME time. Furthermore, they capped non-economic damages at 250K 20 years ago. Our healthcare system has a myriad of problems . . . but the explosion in costs does not lie at the feet of trial lawyers. Sure the slimey bastards are leeches on the system . . . but so are insurance companies, HMOs, and some specialty clinics. Only the latter provides a service . . . the others just feed at the trough.

I support a variety of tort reform items but only idiots and the ignorant believe THE solution to multiple healthcare problems is tort reform.

Case in point - the different healthcare companies robbed the government blind and Clinton's government did zero to stop it. The worst of the Enron-type activites also happened under Clinton/Gore and the damage is still being felt.
Well . . . guess what Dems and Repubs alike lined their pockets with industry largesse. In exchange, they handicapped most regulatory agencies b/c . . . regulations bad . . . industry good. When HealthSouth, Aetna, and HCAColumbia (see Sen. Frist) rob the public it's Clinton's fault but I guess the GOP Congress gets credit for flush government coffers and the budget surplus? Enron-type activities were still going on at Enron up until October 2001 . . . actually as recently as last year Enron received a tax rebate . . . oh and I wonder who the single largest contributer to the 2000 Bush campaign might be . . .

I have no idea how BBD became an expert on what a "good" Christian is. I guess he's enough of an expert that he could label Bush a bad one. I don't know why he is, BBD didn't present any points to back it up.
Well, I'm not surprised you don't know what a good Christian looks like or how they behave. No man is qualified to judge the full character of another . . . I'm just saying Bush's actions in office are NOT Christ-like and have little in common with the road of service and sacrifice that Christ requires of his followers. I don't know if Christ would endorse any war . . . but IMHO Christ would never endorse a war of conquest. He might endorse a war of liberation . . . so why not liberate Angola, Congo, Chechnya, or the Sudan?! Have a seat with a RSV or new RSV and read the New Testament . . . when you find a reference to Bush's actions in office . . . you let me know.

I find nothing wrong with the President of the USA with troops in the field making a special point to pray for Americans. I could even argue that praying for the American forces is almsot the same as praying for the world.
You could make an argument that praying for American forces is almost the same as praying for the world. How about feeding American troops from Saddam's game preserve is the same as feeding Iraqis? Salvation . . . as delivered by the 2nd (or 3rd covenant) is for all mankind. All subsequent blessings are for all mankind . . . if you or Bush doubt it . . . then the message was apparently wasted on you.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Case in point - tort reform would go a long way towards helping the healthcare system. That is a big Bush initiative. Award caps in California (who would have thought that such a liberal state has that type of law in place?) makes it almsot affordable to have malpractice insurance.
Utter nonsense . . . CA instituted tort reform AND insurance caps at the SAME time. Furthermore, they capped non-economic damages at 250K 20 years ago. Our healthcare system has a myriad of problems . . . but the explosion in costs does not lie at the feet of trial lawyers. Sure the slimey bastards are leeches on the system . . . but so are insurance companies, HMOs, and some specialty clinics. Only the latter provides a service . . . the others just feed at the trough.

I support a variety of tort reform items but only idiots and the ignorant believe THE solution to multiple healthcare problems is tort reform.

Case in point - the different healthcare companies robbed the government blind and Clinton's government did zero to stop it. The worst of the Enron-type activites also happened under Clinton/Gore and the damage is still being felt.
Well . . . guess what Dems and Repubs alike lined their pockets with industry largesse. In exchange, they handicapped most regulatory agencies b/c . . . regulations bad . . . industry good. When HealthSouth, Aetna, and HCAColumbia (see Sen. Frist) rob the public it's Clinton's fault but I guess the GOP Congress gets credit for flush government coffers and the budget surplus? Enron-type activities were still going on at Enron up until October 2001 . . . actually as recently as last year Enron received a tax rebate . . . oh and I wonder who the single largest contributer to the 2000 Bush campaign might be . . .

I have no idea how BBD became an expert on what a "good" Christian is. I guess he's enough of an expert that he could label Bush a bad one. I don't know why he is, BBD didn't present any points to back it up.
Well, I'm not surprised you don't know what a good Christian looks like or how they behave. No man is qualified to judge the full character of another . . . I'm just saying Bush's actions in office are NOT Christ-like and have little in common with the road of service and sacrifice that Christ requires of his followers. I don't know if Christ would endorse any war . . . but IMHO Christ would never endorse a war of conquest. He might endorse a war of liberation . . . so why not liberate Angola, Congo, Chechnya, or the Sudan?! Have a seat with a RSV or new RSV and read the New Testament . . . when you find a reference to Bush's actions in office . . . you let me know.

I find nothing wrong with the President of the USA with troops in the field making a special point to pray for Americans. I could even argue that praying for the American forces is almsot the same as praying for the world.
You could make an argument that praying for American forces is almost the same as praying for the world. How about feeding American troops from Saddam's game preserve is the same as feeding Iraqis? Salvation . . . as delivered by the 2nd (or 3rd covenant) is for all mankind. All subsequent blessings are for all mankind . . . if you or Bush doubt it . . . then the message was apparently wasted on you.

Cheers.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Really, find a link that he has provided that is not basically a trolling attempt or biased information to support his anti-bush views, maybe I should try your approach and just attack anothers intellect.

I doubt you looked very hard. And for the last time . . . I am not anti-Bush . . . I just hate his policy and proselytizing. You could certainly try attacking my intellect. If you like we can limit it to PM . . . public evisceration can get messy.

Funny, today in Iraq pilgrimages outlawed or strictly limited under Saddam went on freely and Iraqi's used their newfound freedom to express their Islamic religion, thanks to said doofus's decisions. Afghanistan is Islamic in nature as well, we have freed them twice from oppression, once from the Soviets, once from the Taliban and their new buddies AL-Queeda.

Iraq was one of the few Muslim societies that had the semblance of a secular culture. They were amongst the best educated (men and women) in the region. Saddam was a POS but most Iraqis were not prohibited from practicing their religion . . . various minority groups from Coptics to Jews could practice without fear of an oppressive theocratic regime. Saddam typically put the clamps on clerics who didn't endorse his regime . . . otherwise he only cracked down on those linked to the Shia or Iran. Saddam might have forbidden pilgrimages b/c he justifiably feared mass movements of people within the country . . . most despots are a touch paranoid.

America freed Afghanistan from the Soviets? Who are we going to free next . . . Tibet?

Exactly, Tariq Aziz is a Christian, so what are you saying the Iraqi's had no religious freedom Alistar? It's propbably the only country in the ME that was somewhat religiously tolerant, lets hope is stays that way. As for Afghanistan, we never free them from the Soviets, get your facts straight, we armed them to fight our enemy and then abandoned them to anarchy.

First of all religion was not allowed to be practiced freely in Iraq, notice they are publicvly going on a pilgrimage that would have led to imprisionment before, I hope THAT doesn't stay the same. A govt. shouldn't put the clamps of a religion who disagrees with his policy, that is hardly a truly secular state.

Yes ,we did free Afghanistan, we PAID for it, almost 6 billion through the CIA. We were also their latrgest donor BEOFRE the soviet inbvasion, while the EU did little or nothing. You say we abandoned them to anarchy, we were NEVER THERE REMEMBER. We financied their freedom and allowed them to choose their own govt. Is it OUR fault they made the choices they did afterwards?> hardly, get your facts straight.

 

[jackschmittusa]

I'll come right out and say that I'm anti-Bush and I'm getting a little tired of his righteous Christian crap. Christian leadership gave us: the Crusades to kill the non-believers and steal everything from them, the invasion, killing and stealing of the non-belivers in S. America, the notion of "Manifest Destiny" which was license to kill and steal from the Native Americans, and now we have Bush - onward Christian soldiers. If there is a god, people like Bush and Osama must have it rolling on the floor of heaven laughing every time they open their mouths.

 

[Stark]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
I'll come right out and say that I'm anti-Bush and I'm getting a little tired of his righteous Christian crap. Christian leadership gave us: the Crusades to kill the non-believers and steal everything from them, the invasion, killing and stealing of the non-belivers in S. America, the notion of "Manifest Destiny" which was license to kill and steal from the Native Americans, and now we have Bush - onward Christian soldiers. If there is a god, people like Bush and Osama must have it rolling on the floor of heaven laughing every time they open their mouths.

this is about as good as the tripe babydoc and moonie post.

You should also be tired of all this righteous Muslim crap. Mohammed gave us: the spread of Islam by the sword to kill the non-believers and steal everything from them, the invasion, killing and stealing of the non-believers in N. Africa, the notion of "jihad" which was license to kill and steam from [insert infidel group here], and now we have critics like you - condemn the Christians, soldiers or not. Because there is a god, people like Bush have to put up with morons offering uninformed critiques about them every time they open their mouths.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: Stark

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
I'll come right out and say that I'm anti-Bush and I'm getting a little tired of his righteous Christian crap. Christian leadership gave us: the Crusades to kill the non-believers and steal everything from them, the invasion, killing and stealing of the non-belivers in S. America, the notion of "Manifest Destiny" which was license to kill and steal from the Native Americans, and now we have Bush - onward Christian soldiers. If there is a god, people like Bush and Osama must have it rolling on the floor of heaven laughing every time they open their mouths.

this is about as good as the tripe babydoc and moonie post.

You should also be tired of all this righteous Muslim crap. Mohammed gave us: the spread of Islam by the sword to kill the non-believers and steal everything from them, the invasion, killing and stealing of the non-believers in N. Africa, the notion of "jihad" which was license to kill and steam from [insert infidel group here], and now we have critics like you - condemn the Christians, soldiers or not. Because there is a god, people like Bush have to put up with morons offering uninformed critiques about them every time they open their mouths.

Actually, my uninformed friend, while there were some war lead conversions in N. Africa, the majority converted willingly as Islam spread through trade. In fact, Islam's most important contribution to Africa was literacy and under Islamic rule, Africa flourished. I know you would't beleive me, so I included a non biased (read written by non-Muslim researchers) link:
Trade and spread of Islam - courtesy of the Met Museum
If you want to talk about mistreating Africans, we can talk about the slave trade in the US.
As for jihad, it is a concept abused by extremists to justify their actions.
If you can honestly claim that Christians got people to convert using only peaceful means, you obviously failed history. Don't forget the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the forced conversion of Native Indians in the America's, the forced conversion of slaves in the US etc. Neither religion is innocent, and that is not because either is flawed, it is because the actions of humans are.

 

[Alistar7]

Look at all the Indians we converted here.....

The African slave trade was prevelant before the US, we were just a new and developing market at that time, human slavery still persists there today though with less export, that hardly makes it just.

There are still to this day those being brought into the US for slave labor, and those being taken OUT of America for slave trades, AMERICANS, WHITE PEOPLE, being sold as slaves. Want one? lol.

We put the very existence of this country at risk over our beliefs in the values we treasure and the rights we feel all men are entitled to, while that might have been a civil war, that was still a fight for freedom and the values associated with our country.

How about the effects of EU imperialism and colonialism worldwide throughout history?

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Look at all the Indians we converted here.....

The African slave trade was prevelant before the US, we were just a new and developing market at that time, human slavery still persists there today though with less export, that hardly makes it just.

-Yes, but we took it to new hights with the slaves we brought and mistreated in the States, come on now, African Americans got their civil rights less than half a century ago.

How about the effects of EU imperialism and colonialism worldwide throughout history?

-No one is disputing those, we were talking about Chritianity vs. Islam.

 

[Alistar7]

The historical problems religion has caused and continues to cause is exactly why it should be kept out of governance.

Religion in it's purest form, untouched by man, is perfect, alas, anything touched by man becomes corrupted.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
The historical problems religion has caused and continues to cause is exactly why it should be kept out of governance.

Religion in it's purest form, untouched by man, is perfect, alas, anything touched by man becomes corrupted.

aka: People suck!!

 

[jackschmittusa]

Stark
You must be extraordinarily perceptive to have identified me as "uninformed" and "a moron" from so short a post. I actually consider myself rather well informed and would bet the farm on my I.Q. exceeding yours. Your response is a glaring example of how it is impossible to have an intellectual dialogue with one of your ilk. I mentioned Osama in the post. Both he and Bush pray for the same things, i.e. that all of the good guys go to heaven, that god will intervene on the side of the righteous (keep the prisoners safe, etc.), help to defeat evil - guide us to victory. That's what the world needs more of for sure - leaders who control destructive forces counting on supernatural support to smite their enemies and hoist them to the high moral ground. Bush's constant reference to god and prayer is an effort to point out that his Christian god is the superior god ("see, we won") and it will only infuriate those who are just as sure that they are right. Mixing god and government usually leads to less than desireable results.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Stark
You must be extraordinarily perceptive to have identified me as "uninformed" and "a moron" from so short a post. I actually consider myself rather well informed and would bet the farm on my I.Q. exceeding yours. Your response is a glaring example of how it is impossible to have an intellectual dialogue with one of your ilk. I mentioned Osama in the post. Both he and Bush pray for the same things, i.e. that all of the good guys go to heaven, that god will intervene on the side of the righteous (keep the prisoners safe, etc.), help to defeat evil - guide us to victory. That's what the world needs more of for sure - leaders who control destructive forces counting on supernatural support to smite their enemies and hoist them to the high moral ground. Bush's constant reference to god and prayer is an effort to point out that his Christian god is the superior god ("see, we won") and it will only infuriate those who are just as sure that they are right. Mixing god and government usually leads to less than desireable results.

What he said. America is a secular nation = separation of church and state. Certain people tend to forget that every so often.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Stark
You must be extraordinarily perceptive to have identified me as "uninformed" and "a moron" from so short a post. I actually consider myself rather well informed and would bet the farm on my I.Q. exceeding yours. Your response is a glaring example of how it is impossible to have an intellectual dialogue with one of your ilk. I mentioned Osama in the post. Both he and Bush pray for the same things, i.e. that all of the good guys go to heaven, that god will intervene on the side of the righteous (keep the prisoners safe, etc.), help to defeat evil - guide us to victory. That's what the world needs more of for sure - leaders who control destructive forces counting on supernatural support to smite their enemies and hoist them to the high moral ground. Bush's constant reference to god and prayer is an effort to point out that his Christian god is the superior god ("see, we won") and it will only infuriate those who are just as sure that they are right. Mixing god and government usually leads to less than desireable results.

What he said. America is a secular nation = separation of church and state. Certain people tend to forget that every so often.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

It's probably a waste but here Alistar7 . . . if you want to end your ignorance of what life was like for Christians under Saddam:

International Christian Concern

Assyrian Christians courtesy of the Presbyterian Church In America . . . or as I like to calm them . . . a poor excuse for a Calvinist
According to Wilfred Alkhas, who edits a magazine for the Assyrian Diaspora, ?One of the little known facts concerning the Middle East is the role of the Christians. Before the rise of Khomeini in Iran, Islam was generally a tolerant religion. Large groups of Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and others lived peacefully in majority Muslim populations for generations throughout the Middle East.?
contradicts most of your posts

Another problem that has plagued the Christians of Iraq is an Iraqi government program to ?Arabize? all citizens. Human Rights organizing say that the Assyrian Christians as with other minorities in the region have suffered under the Arabizatoin programs. Although they are not Arabs they have been forced to sign national correction forms that require them to renounce their ethnic ideates, religion and declare themselves to be Arabs.
consistent with your posts

Following the radicalization of Islam, though according to sources in the Assyrian Diaspora, perhaps up to 70% of the Christians in the Middle East have left finding it impossible to live under the oppression of radicalized Islamic states.
Saddam actually suppressed radical Islam within Iraq

Iraq for all its faults is a secular nation government by a secular Baath Party. The Vice President, Mr. Tariq Aziz is a Christian and the Church of the East is allowed more freedom than in many other Middle Eastern nation.

?We are in a critical state today,? says another Assyrian leader. ?We have the Arabs on one side and the Kurds on the other, and although we have good relations with our Kurdish brothers in northern Iraq unfortunately now the Kurds are behaving in the rod of a big bother.?

The leaders of the KDP Kurdish Democratic Party and the PUK Patriotic Union of Kurdistan the leading Kurd parties publicly say they have no plans for an independent Kurdistan but in recent weeks have put together a constriction, convened their parliament and are making all the moves towards an independent Kurdistan encompassing the Assyrian, Christian areas.

 

[Stark]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Stark
You must be extraordinarily perceptive to have identified me as "uninformed" and "a moron" from so short a post. I actually consider myself rather well informed and would bet the farm on my I.Q. exceeding yours. Your response is a glaring example of how it is impossible to have an intellectual dialogue with one of your ilk. I mentioned Osama in the post. Both he and Bush pray for the same things, i.e. that all of the good guys go to heaven, that god will intervene on the side of the righteous (keep the prisoners safe, etc.), help to defeat evil - guide us to victory. That's what the world needs more of for sure - leaders who control destructive forces counting on supernatural support to smite their enemies and hoist them to the high moral ground. Bush's constant reference to god and prayer is an effort to point out that his Christian god is the superior god ("see, we won") and it will only infuriate those who are just as sure that they are right. Mixing god and government usually leads to less than desireable results.

you took it upon yourself to equate bush with the christian crusaders of history.

Following your reasoning, either christians should not be president, or even in government at worst or they should shut up about their faith once they get in office at best.

Like it or not, the US is a Judeo-Christian country and most of it's citizens worship the Judeo-Christian God (who was later renamed Allah by Mohammed). Politicians are not required to forfeit their beliefs once they assume office. Eisenhower called on God to help the troops in D-Day. Another President who led the US during wartime said this:

"We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us," he wrote, "And have vainly imagined that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us."

It seems that Bush is taking the advice of Lincoln in calling on the Supreme Creator to help us through times of crisis.

But this sort of behavior is "crap" to you and makes you tired.

And the islamic re-write was in no way intended to be completely factual or historically sound, just as the original should not be viewed as a balanced survey of the history of Christians.

 

[jackschmittusa]

The majority race in the U.S. is caucasian. Whould you call it a "white nation"? The U.S. is not a nation predicated on any religion or group of religions. Bush is supposed to represent the Wiccans, the agnostics, the atheists, the Hindus, etc. that live in this country. Bush is entitled to believe any religious folklore he wants. There is also no doubt that it will color his thinking on many issues. But, as head of a free nation, he should shut up about it when he addresses the world. The stupid idea that we need to insert god into our government to differentiate us from "the godless commies"(insert "Arab radicals, or whatever) is as dead as the rest of the McCarthy BS.

 

[Stark]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
The majority race in the U.S. is caucasian. Whould you call it a "white nation"? The U.S. is not a nation predicated on any religion or group of religions. Bush is supposed to represent the Wiccans, the agnostics, the atheists, the Hindus, etc. that live in this country. Bush is entitled to believe any religious folklore he wants. There is also no doubt that it will color his thinking on many issues. But, as head of a free nation, he should shut up about it when he addresses the world. The stupid idea that we need to insert god into our government to differentiate us from "the godless commies"(insert "Arab radicals, or whatever) is as dead as the rest of the McCarthy BS.

when a wiccan, agnostic, atheist, or hindu gets elected to office you may have a point. But that's never happened and probably won't for a few more decades at least.

Bush didn't hide his faith when he campaigned for office and he has the right (like all other citizens) to pray to God when and where he likes, especially on the holiest day for Christians worldwide.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: Stark

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Stark


Like it or not, the US is a Judeo-Christian country and most of it's citizens worship the Judeo-Christian God (who was later renamed Allah by Mohammed).

Open an English-Arabic dictionary, Allah is the translation for the word "God", and is used by Arab Christians as well.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Bush didn't hide it when he ran, but he should keep it to himself now. Christianity is no better than any other (or no) religion. It only degrades politics just as Islam does when it is mixed in. Religion evokes emotion when we need clear heads to look at things logically. It is clearly time that we, as a species, begin to use the big brains that we are so proud of, whether we believe they evolved or just popped into existence by god's magic.