Bush, Jesus, and Easter blessings

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Bush didn't hide it when he ran, but he should keep it to himself now. Christianity is no better than any other (or no) religion. It only degrades politics just as Islam does when it is mixed in. Religion evokes emotion when we need clear heads to look at things logically. It is clearly time that we, as a species, begin to use the big brains that we are so proud of, whether we believe they evolved or just popped into existence by god's magic.

Separation of church and state is elemental to the US. In fact, most of our founding fathers were either deists or athiests. Here's what they thought about religion
Quotes by the founding fathers on religion.
I'm sure if Bush was around back then, they would have shot him.

 

[jackschmittusa]

LilBlinbBlahIce

Thanks for the link. An excellent read and more eloquent than I have expressed myself.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Bush didn't hide it when he ran, but he should keep it to himself now. Christianity is no better than any other (or no) religion. It only degrades politics just as Islam does when it is mixed in. Religion evokes emotion when we need clear heads to look at things logically. It is clearly time that we, as a species, begin to use the big brains that we are so proud of, whether we believe they evolved or just popped into existence by god's magic.

Separation of church and state is elemental to the US. In fact, most of our founding fathers were either deists or athiests. Here's what they thought about religion
Quotes by the founding fathers on religion.
I'm sure if Bush was around back then, they would have shot him.

So if your position is complete and total seperation of church and state..

A Muslim woman should be forced to remove her veil to get a driver's license photo.

The hijab should be banned at all government-funded schools.

The military should not take into account any dietary restrictions of Muslim prisoners.

etc.

Right? We can't let any religion be acknowledged in any way by the government now can we?

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Bush didn't hide it when he ran, but he should keep it to himself now. Christianity is no better than any other (or no) religion. It only degrades politics just as Islam does when it is mixed in. Religion evokes emotion when we need clear heads to look at things logically. It is clearly time that we, as a species, begin to use the big brains that we are so proud of, whether we believe they evolved or just popped into existence by god's magic.

Separation of church and state is elemental to the US. In fact, most of our founding fathers were either deists or athiests. Here's what they thought about religion
Quotes by the founding fathers on religion.
I'm sure if Bush was around back then, they would have shot him.

So if your position is complete and total seperation of church and state..

A Muslim woman should be forced to remove her veil to get a driver's license photo.

The hijab should be banned at all government-funded schools.

The military should not take into account any dietary restrictions of Muslim prisoners.

etc.

Right? We can't let any religion be acknowledged in any way by the government now can we?

Being tolerant towards someone's religious beleifs is very much different than professing yours on others or representing the United States as though it were a Christian Nation. There is no comparison between what you are suggesting and Bush's "divine mandate" way of justifying or supporting his actions.

 

[Jani]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
How about the effects of EU imperialism and colonialism worldwide throughout history?

Throughtout EU's history which started 1995 I haven't heard any imperialism or colonialism in EU. Five countries joined EU in 1995 and those countries had local elections where they choose to join. Few weeks ago 10 new countries decided to join and again those countries had elections where they choose to join. Please explain wha do mean with EU & colonialism and imperialism.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Back in the old days when Asia, Africa, and the Americas were pillaged by European powers.

 

[jackschmittusa]

I have no problem with the government making accomidations for most religious rules that people choose to live by. I would draw the line at things like human sacrifice for example as it infringes on the rights of the sacrificed. So, etech, if you think that I meant that separating church and state means that the state should pretend that religion doesn't exist or should be so inflexable as to deny any of its citizens the pursuit of happiness; I could probably explain it in very simple terms if you want. I want a government that fosters a culture that allows everyone to feel happy, secure, and included.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
I have no problem with the government making accomidations for most religious rules that people choose to live by. I would draw the line at things like human sacrifice for example as it infringes on the rights of the sacrificed. So, etech, if you think that I meant that separating church and state means that the state should pretend that religion doesn't exist or should be so inflexable as to deny any of its citizens the pursuit of happiness; I could probably explain it in very simple terms if you want. I want a government that fosters a culture that allows everyone to feel happy, secure, and included.

Well said. I can guarantee there are a lot of people in this country who don't feel "included" right now thanks to Bush & Co.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

They are included . . . he will pray for all of them to find Jesus so they won't suffer eternal damnation for following the wrong religion.

 

[jackschmittusa]

BaliBabyDoc

As long as he does it in private, I don't care what he prays to or for.

 

[Athanasius]

sandorski quote:

According to the Bible, even the Anti-Christ is part of God's plan. So Bush should be careful!

An excellent point, even if said in jest. I am not stating any opinion on the war here, but everyone should consider that those who embrace the Devil's work should be prpepared to receive his wages. Consider the following:

Fine weapons are implements of ill omen: people despise them
So those with the Way do not dwell on them.

Weapons, being instruments of ill omen, are not the tools of the cultured,
who use them only when unavoidable.

Thus they win without beautifying killing.
Those who beautify killing enjoy killing people.

Those who enjoy killing people cannot be allowed to get their will in the world.

That means when you are in ascendancy of power,
you handle it as you would a mourning.

When you have killed many people,
you weep for them in sorrow.

When you win a war,
you celebrate by mourning.

Leo Tse, "Tao te Ching," circa 600 BC

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
I have no problem with the government making accomidations for most religious rules that people choose to live by. I would draw the line at things like human sacrifice for example as it infringes on the rights of the sacrificed. So, etech, if you think that I meant that separating church and state means that the state should pretend that religion doesn't exist or should be so inflexable as to deny any of its citizens the pursuit of happiness; I could probably explain it in very simple terms if you want. I want a government that fosters a culture that allows everyone to feel happy, secure, and included.

Well said. I can guarantee there are a lot of people in this country who don't feel "included" right now thanks to Bush & Co.

Who?

and why?

 

[Athanasius]

etech quote:

Who?

and why?

A legitimate question. Our Constitution says Congress (acting as an authoritative legal entity) shall make no law regarding the establishment of one particular religion and shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Bush isn't even in the congressional, legislative branch, and his personal example is by no means establishing a legal religion or prohibiting anyone else's right to practice their own beliefs.

Some may feel like it is in bad taste, but let's not try to make Bush's personal practice of his beliefs a constitutional issue.

Apparently some think our President is not entitled to the free exercise of his religion. You may find it tasteless, politically motivated, hypocritical, shortsighted, or whatever. Fine. Vote accordingly. But don't try to twist it into a First Amendment issue.


BTW, I know that America has never been a specifically Christian nation. Article VI of the original Constitution makes that clear two years before the Bill of Rights was even added to the Constitution. America has never been a specifically Christian nation, and George Bush has never made that claim (to my knowledge).

Why is a deist, functioning as an individual and an executive (not as a legislative, legally binding body) allowed to invoke "Providence" but George Bush is not allowed to invoke Jesus?
But America is a "faith friendly" nation?

But this thread has strayed far from the War and the Middle East and probably needs to die, get back on topic, or move to the Off Topic Forum.

 

[kleinesarschloch]

So if your position is complete and total seperation of church and state..

A Muslim woman should be forced to remove her veil to get a driver's license photo.

The hijab should be banned at all government-funded schools.

The military should not take into account any dietary restrictions of Muslim prisoners.

i'd say yes on all of those, except for banning the hijab. it doesn't make sense because a lot of people wear some werid stuff for completely non-religious reasons. one thing is to be religious, the other is to be blinded enough to follow these completely arbitrary rules.
ofcourse a muslim woman should show her face on the drivers license, we all do. muslim prisoners should be treated like other prisoners: if other prisoners get a choice of food, then so do the muslims. if not tough luck.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
They are included . . . he will pray for all of them to find Jesus so they won't suffer eternal damnation for following the wrong religion.

LOL

 

[jackschmittusa]

Athanasius
Bush's use of Christian references in his public speaking may well be perceived as taunting or a declaration of superiority by people of other faiths and he knows it or is stupid as hell. This is no way for the leader of a free country to act. There are no legal prohibitions against him that the white race will prevail, or that men are the superior gender either, but these are still not things to be said publicly even if he belived these things.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Athanasius
Bush's use of Christian references in his public speaking may well be perceived as taunting or a declaration of superiority by people of other faiths and he knows it or is stupid as hell. This is no way for the leader of a free country to act. There are no legal prohibitions against him that the white race will prevail, or that men are the superior gender either, but these are still not things to be said publicly even if he belived these things.

He is the president of the United States and should be held to a higher standard. I personally think hes a combination of "dumb as $hit" and "playing to the audience". Who'se his support base? Conservatives. I think he's trying to appeal to his voters but I don't think he realizes just how crusade like he sounds.

 

[ConclamoLudus]

I'm sure GW's intentions weren't to insult everyone except his supporters. Man you guys are harsh. The guy gives a blessing to some soldiers that risked their lives for him, and now he's a monster?

 

[Judgement]

Originally posted by: ConclamoLudus
I'm sure GW's intentions weren't to insult everyone except his supporters. Man you guys are harsh. The guy gives a blessing to some soldiers that risked their lives for him, and now he's a monster?

He is satan reincarnated, duh! Where have you been?!

 

[ConclamoLudus]

I've got that FOX news chip stuck in my brain I guess.

 

[jackschmittusa]

ConclamoLudus

Nobody risked or lost his life for Bush! His foreign policy, yes.

 

[ConclamoLudus]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
ConclamoLudus

Nobody risked or lost his life for Bush! His foreign policy, yes.

I stand corrected:

I'm sure GW's intentions weren't to insult everyone except his supporters. Man you guys are harsh. The guy gives a blessing to some soldiers that risked their lives for U.S. Foreign Policy, and now he's a monster?

Are there any other requests?

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ConclamoLudus

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
ConclamoLudus

Nobody risked or lost his life for Bush! His foreign policy, yes.

I stand corrected:

I'm sure GW's intentions weren't to insult everyone except his supporters. Man you guys are harsh. The guy gives a blessing to some soldiers that risked their lives for U.S. Foreign Policy, and now he's a monster?

Are there any other requests?

No one's saying anything about him giving his blessings to soldiers, we're talking about his general rhetoric throught the war in regards to the conflict at hand. For examples look thorough this thread, I think someone posted some, or check google.

 

[Athanasius]

jackschmittusa reply:

Athanasius
Bush's use of Christian references in his public speaking may well be perceived as taunting or a declaration of superiority by people of other faiths and he knows it or is stupid as hell. This is no way for the leader of a free country to act. There are no legal prohibitions against him that the white race will prevail, or that men are the superior gender either, but these are still not things to be said publicly even if he believed these things.

Well, it may be perceived as taunting and it might be perceived as a declaration of superiority. In similar vein, a college professor who espouses his atheistic convictions to the class might be perceived as taunting those of faith or claiming superiority over them. So is that professor's individual statement repressing the free exercise of religion?

Perhaps Bush shouldn't act that way. If that is so, neither should the college professor (though it is common enough). But I think Bush is sincere in what he happens to believe and knew that it would be politically beneficial for him to say it. So his motive was a mix of personal religion and political gain. He is more savvy than many believe, even if that shrewdness is more a matter of intuition and instinct rather than high intellect.

So I ask once again: Why is a deist (like many of our founding fathers), functioning as an individual politician (not as a legislative, legally binding body) allowed to invoke "Providence" as part of his personal religion but George Bush is not allowed to invoke God as part of his? If the deist was not violating the Constitution that he was an historical peer of, how is George W. Bush? If it is in bad taste, than it has been for this country's entire history from the Declaration of Independence until the present day.

Earlier you said:

The stupid idea that we need to insert god into our government to differentiate us from "the godless commies"(insert "Arab radicals, or whatever) is as dead as the rest of the McCarthy BS.

Well, McCarthyism should be dead, and any attempt to insert God as a way of presenting himself as superior to the "Arab radicals" is obviously McCarthy-istic and a stupid idea. But it simply is not historically legitimate to say that any political leader mentioning a "god" or asking for his blessings is inserting god into our government in a way that violates this nation's constitution or its overall history. Such a tendency far predates McCarthyism.

 

[jackschmittusa]

The McCarthy era is the starting point (more or less) when political news in the U.S. became world news. The U.S. had great influence in the world. TV made exporting news a much easier task. It was wrong for earlier presidents to use Christian references in their speeches too, but it is much worse now with the whole world listening. We bash the Arab world because they mix religion and politics and yet they must see Bush as doing the same thing.