Bush, Jesus, and Easter blessings

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etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Athanasius

I wish you would post more often. I may not always agree with you but I always admire the wisdom and style of your posts.
 

NightTrain

Platinum Member
Apr 1, 2001
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Originally posted by: etech
Athanasius

I wish you would post more often. I may not always agree with you but I always admire the wisdom and style of your posts.


I'll second that.

 

OneManArmy

Junior Member
Apr 22, 2003
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Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Bush didn't hide it when he ran, but he should keep it to himself now. Christianity is no better than any other (or no) religion. It only degrades politics just as Islam does when it is mixed in. Religion evokes emotion when we need clear heads to look at things logically. It is clearly time that we, as a species, begin to use the big brains that we are so proud of, whether we believe they evolved or just popped into existence by god's magic.

Separation of church and state is elemental to the US. In fact, most of our founding fathers were either deists or athiests. Here's what they thought about religion
Quotes by the founding fathers on religion.
I'm sure if Bush was around back then, they would have shot him.

So if your position is complete and total seperation of church and state..


A Muslim woman should be forced to remove her veil to get a driver's license photo.

The hijab should be banned at all government-funded schools.

The military should not take into account any dietary restrictions of Muslim prisoners.

etc.

Right? We can't let any religion be acknowledged in any way by the government now can we?

Being tolerant towards someone's religious beleifs is very much different than professing yours on others or representing the United States as though it were a Christian Nation. There is no comparison between what you are suggesting and Bush's "divine mandate" way of justifying or supporting his actions.


Thanks for stating that so clearly. etech has a tendency to become misguided.
 

OneManArmy

Junior Member
Apr 22, 2003
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Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
They are included . . . he will pray for all of them to find Jesus so they won't suffer eternal damnation for following the wrong religion.

lol. excellente!
 

OneManArmy

Junior Member
Apr 22, 2003
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Originally posted by: ConclamoLudus
I'm sure GW's intentions weren't to insult everyone except his supporters. Man you guys are harsh. The guy gives a blessing to some soldiers that risked their lives for him, and now he's a monster?

No, just a born again idiot.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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LilBlinbBlahIce

Being tolerant towards someone's religious beleifs is very much different than professing yours on others or representing the United States as though it were a Christian Nation.

Saying ?God Bless America? at the end of a speech does neither.


There is no comparison between what you are suggesting and Bush's "divine mandate" way of justifying or supporting his actions.

I love your rhetoric but will you supply specific examples of how Pres. Bush uses a ?divine mandate? as a way of justifying or supporting his actions? A hint of "God's" divine plan does not qualify.


 

NightTrain

Platinum Member
Apr 1, 2001
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Originally posted by: OneManArmy
Thanks for stating that so clearly. etech has a tendency to become misguided.

You must have come to that conclusion based on all the experience you've gained during your whole hour of membership.



 

ConclamoLudus

Senior member
Jan 16, 2003
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I'll tolerate anybody's freedom to SAY what they believe, even Bush's, and if I disagree, I'll vote. Toleration goes both ways.
 

Athanasius

Senior member
Nov 16, 1999
975
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etech:

Thanks for the encouragement. Thank God you don't always agree with me. I am often wrong. If I had more time or something more valuable to say, I would post more often.

jackschmittusa quote:

The McCarthy era is the starting point (more or less) when political news in the U.S. became world news. The U.S. had great influence in the world. TV made exporting news a much easier task. It was wrong for earlier presidents to use Christian references in their speeches too, but it is much worse now with the whole world listening. We bash the Arab world because they mix religion and politics and yet they must see Bush as doing the same thing.

I do not bash the Arab world for mixing religion and politics. Everyone will inevitably mix their values with their politics. I "bash" any political system that suppresses appropriate freedom of religion. In its root meaning, "politics" is simply the realm of citizenship. Every citizen (from Greek: "polites," from which we get "politics") brings his beliefs or value systems to the table.

It sounds lofty and wise to say that we must separate religion and politics, but it is impossible in the real world without squelching the free exercise of religion. In the very moment that one forces an absolute separation of politics and belief, one finds that he has established by politcal might one particular belief: his own. He has summoned the demon he thought he was exorcising. He has been possessed by that which he thought to destroy.

Our founding fathers understood that and that is why they balanced religion and politics by forbidding government suppression of religion and forbidding the government from establishing one legal religion or denomination.

I think you make a good point is stating that the McCarthy era is the starting point of American globalism from a media perspective. But the faith friendly, free-speech, free-press, pluralistic nature of our government is part of what got us to the point where we became globally pre-eminent.

So what got us there is now to be discarded because some don't view one man's particular statements to be politically correct?

You may sincerely believe that it was "wrong" for previous presidents to use Christian or Deistic references in their speeches. The wonderful thing about this country is that you are free to express that. You could have been a high school student in Iraq who wrote an anti-government statement on the blackboard and henceforth vanished along with his entire senior class (see the Washington Post for confirmation of this story.)

But what is the basis for you saying it is wrong? Since many of the framers of our Constitution freely invoked God, Providence, or the Creator, it is self-evident that the very men who lived in the constitutional era and in some cases helped write the Constituion saw no problem with it.

Here lies the fundamental point of debate. The "enlightened modernist" (say post 1945)feels like he understands the foundation of this nation and the "spirit" of our Constitution better than the previous generations and sometimes better than the men who wrote it.

I consider that a severely flawed system of interpretation. First we must understand what the document meant to those who framed it by seeing how they applied it to their everyday lives. Then we can seek to apply it to our present circumstance. If we judge the Constitution to be flawed, then we ammend it. If we feel like some political leader's actions are unconstitutional or illegal, then we press forward on those grounds and seek his removal from office.

If there is no legal, constitutional issue, then we live and let live. And we argue about it on AT. :)
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
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The framers of the Consitution had no concept of instaneous, world-wide communication. Bush is the world-wide spokesman for the U.S. and many people in other countries see him as the representation of what the U.S. is. Bush believes that the U.S. is a Christian nation and projects that. The Administration has made it clear that a fundamentalist Islamic government is a bad thing in any Arab country. By constantly making religeous comments in his public speaking, it is not much of a leap for others to conclude that he means "Islam=bad; Christianity=good". This in no way is in the best interests of the citizens of this country. Right now Bush & co. are worried that free elections in Iraq will result in a Shiite fundamentalist government. Unlike the early leaders of this country, the President no longer speaks just to the leader of another country, but is heard by most of its citizens as well. To serve our country best, Bush must speak as though everyone who hears his voice is his peer.
 

LilBlinbBlahIce

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2001
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Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
The framers of the Consitution had no concept of instaneous, world-wide communication. Bush is the world-wide spokesman for the U.S. and many people in other countries see him as the representation of what the U.S. is. Bush believes that the U.S. is a Christian nation and projects that. The Administration has made it clear that a fundamentalist Islamic government is a bad thing in any Arab country. By constantly making religeous comments in his public speaking, it is not much of a leap for others to conclude that he means "Islam=bad; Christianity=good". This in no way is in the best interests of the citizens of this country. Right now Bush & co. are worried that free elections in Iraq will result in a Shiite fundamentalist government. Unlike the early leaders of this country, the President no longer speaks just to the leader of another country, but is heard by most of its citizens as well. To serve our country best, Bush must speak as though everyone who hears his voice is his peer.

Exactly, besides, there is an entire region of people who are convinced, be it for ignorance or whatever, that this is a war between Christianity and Islam. It is easy for mullahs to convince the masses citing Bush's rhetoric as an example. As I said before, freedom of speach is all fine and dandy, but Bush is the president of the US. He is held to a different standard as he has different responsabilities. For the good of this country, he should keep his born again BS to himself. It's pretty hard to claim that this is a crusade if the president doesn't cite God every two words.