Building a home theater for family

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
if they have the case for it and will spend a good amount of time on it, why not let them spend the money on a top of the line HDTV and get the SONY Bravia 52in XBR5 for around $3-4k... then build the home theater around that...

Onkyo 705
etc etc etc for another $1-2k

I'm not sure they'll spend a good amount of time on it. They're not the kind of people that watch a lot of TV in the first place. Comparing the Bravia that jpeyton recommended with the XBR5, I doubt the $1K+ price premium would be worth it to them. Also, I found the Bravia KDL-52W3000 online for slightly under $2K (Yes, it's new) so it will fit nicely in their budget if they decide they want to go with it.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Maybe they'll watch it more once it's more fun than their 35" SD CRT?

One of the big things that people are constantly mentioning on the AV123 forum is that once people get their new HT speakers that they end up listening to a lot more music on it since it sounds so much better than they were used to.

I can see why you're hesitant to have them spend more money on this seeing that they might not get their money's worth out of it either because they don't use it or they aren't going to notice the difference between a $4000 system and a $8000 system.

I'm personally more worried about the audio than the video at this point as far as how much is being spent. There are a lot of really nice displays out there in the $2000-$2500 range including the Pioneer kuro mentioned already which would be my first choice.

For the audio side of things... there are a few things that are going through my mind
- For a lot of people, they'll be happy with just about anything better than TV speakers
- Some people can't hear much difference between a budget set of speakers and more expensive ones
- I have no idea what their expectations are for the sound end of this system (theater like volume levels / will it be used for music as well / etc)
- They've never experienced a HT system as a reference point
- The aesthetic consideration of small speakers up against walls is going to make putting together a great system difficult... and adding in the relatively low budget it going to make it extremely difficult
- The goal of this is to make them happy, so the motivations for making the system are not quite known with the information I have. It's not the way of thinking I'm used to as performance seems to be taking a back seat to aesthetics.
- I'm worried about how your initial choices for the components were made vs. other alternatives and how you presented these choices to them and how they came up with the 5k system as their best option. I don't think that going to BB / CC / etc. would have been a better option for them (or even a dedicated audio/video type store) as their motivation would be influenced by making money off them. At the same time, I'm not sure how much you're motivated by making money off this either. Your first response to my suggestion for a ~$1200 system that I would be confident would blow away your $800 system was that it would eat into your profits. That rubbed me the wrong way.

Overall I'm not trying to say that some of these recommendations you've been given are for sure the right way to go, but I'm not as confident in this information flow between us and the purchasers vs. what we're usually used to.
Instead of us getting feedback from the people who we're actually trying to please, we're making suggestions to you and you're filtering it for them.
I don't know if talking to them directly would give us different feedback or how your decision process is really working for how you're deciding what's best for them. I don't know their financial situation is, but I would assume that a $5000 (or more) purchase would be a significant decision for them and that's one reason they sought your external help in this matter. There are a lot of decisions to be made and everything you're going to decide on is going to mean making compromises. For me, the one more level of disconnect between the actual purchasers and us is causing a little frustration.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

^^^ Yeah, YOyoYOhowsDAjello. I understand it's difficult to make recommendations for them since you are a step away. The natural inclination for many people in here is to suggest components with the best perfromance for the money without much regard for the aesthetic restrictions that have been imposed. I understand that position but I have to take their wishes into consideration.

I just got back from vistiing them and offered them a long list of alternatives. I also spoke to them about the Olevia TV and the potential pitfalls of that TV should anything go wrong. They agreed they didn't want to go with Olevia so I offered the Sony as an alternative and the man of the house didn't like the reduced screen size. They were trying to visualize the screen size and happened to have a mirror hanging in the room that measured 52" diagonal and was nearly a perfect 16:9 aspect ratio. I also spoke about PQ and asked them if they minded taking a road trip so we could look at TVs. We took a quick trip to Sam's, a place I've never been, and Sam's just happened to have a decent mix of TVs. For LCDs they had a 52" Sony KDL sitting right next to a Sharp Aquos 52". The uncle appreciated the PQ but decided that the screen was too small. He wanted a larger screen and we settled on a size somewhere between 55" and 60". I told him that LCDs in that size of any quality would cost a pretty penny so we settled on a plasma since a larger screen, 1080p plasma (Yes, he wants 1080p and won't settle for 720p) is agreeable even if it does jack up the price a couple of grand+. So far I've looked at the 60" LG (LG 60PY3D) and the 58" Panny (TH-58PZ700U) and both will fit into the budget, the LG just barely and the Panasonic easily. If anyone else has suggestions for a quality 55"+ plasma that runs @ $4K or less, please chime in.

For the speakers they are hell bent on the aesthetic route. They want the smallest and least obtrusive speakers possible and they want them in white. I'm possibly considering the Mirage Omnisats or Nanosats. I have a pair of Mirage Omnisats for my rear surrounds and I love them. They are pretty amazing for their size. I'll just be buying fronts and a center of the Mirage. For the rear speakers they want an in-wall set which will fit nicely in the nook for the bay window. The sub will be hidden behind furniture so the aesthetics aren't all that important.

They decided to go with the PS3 and the HD-A3. They wanted the option to play either format and they like the idea of the great grandkids being able to play games.

So that's where I'm at right now. He's already given me 5 grand to get started and I'll add on to that based on the final TV selection, along with another $125 for the HD-A3.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

The Pioneer 6010 would be another one to look at and that runs just a little over 4k.

If they really need the speakers as small as possible then yeah... omnisats and a few other alternatives I have listed in my Bose-alternatives would be a good way to go.

Sounds like the video trip was productive. They wouldn't want to take a similar trip based on audio?

EDIT: They know that speakers don't have to be black boxes, right?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
The Pioneer 6010 would be another one to look at and that runs just a little over 4k.

How about the Pioneer PDP-6070HD? It runs a bit under $4K and has some good reviews.

If they really need the speakers as small as possible then yeah... omnisats and a few other alternatives I have listed in my Bose-alternatives would be a good way to go.

Sounds like the video trip was productive. They wouldn't want to take a similar trip based on audio?

EDIT: They know that speakers don't have to be black boxes, right?

Yeah, I explained that I could manage speakers that would match or come close to matching the existing furniture wood, which is a basic oak. They still weren't interested. I also explained that they'd be losing quite a bit of audio fidelity by restricting themselves to small wall mounts and in-walls. They didn't care. For speakers the aesthetics is way more important to them. I'll try to give them the best audio bang for their buck based on the restrictions but it's a still a bummer they won't go for something with a bit more audio meat.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Looks like the 6070 is not 1080p as per your requirements + off the top of my head I don't know how it compares to the 6010.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Looks like the 6070 is not 1080p as per your requirements + off the top of my head I don't know how it compares to the 6010.

Just saw that. Some of the specs they were giving on that weren't very clear about the native res but I finally ran across one that designated it as 720p.

Strike that set.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Looks like the 6070 is not 1080p as per your requirements + off the top of my head I don't know how it compares to the 6010.

Just saw that. Some of the specs they were giving on that weren't very clear about the native res but I finally ran across one that designated it as 720p.

Strike that set.

Yeah it's 1365x768 or something close to that as a lot of "720p" sets are.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

very questionable selection you have there.
you'll get them a nice receiver, yet claim they're not audiophiles.
then you get them a crap tv and say that their not videophiles, yet people's eyes are much more discerning than their ears, especially on a product that not only stands out when they're watching movies on it, but acts as a furniture piece when off, as well as a conversation starter.

if i went to a friend's house and saw the olevia tv and was then told it was recommended by their relative who claims to have helped them put together this "respectable" system, i would probably be laughing inside.

do your relatives a favor and get them a better tv.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
very questionable selection you have there.
you'll get them a nice receiver, yet claim they're not audiophiles.
then you get them a crap tv and say that their not videophiles, yet people's eyes are much more discerning than their ears, especially on a product that not only stands out when they're watching movies on it, but acts as a furniture piece when off, as well as a conversation starter.

if i went to a friend's house and saw the olevia tv and was then told it was recommended by their relative who claims to have helped them put together this "respectable" system, i would probably be laughing inside.

do your relatives a favor and get them a better tv.

The TV itself is not crap. I saw the 65" version yesterday and it's not as if it has a horrid picture. Its picture was actually slightly better than I expected. The concern is more about service if something should go wrong. Honestly, it seems some people just have a natural dislike for certain companies and will bash them because that's what they see others do, kind of like the Microsoft haters.

If you haven't read anything past the OP, the Olevia doesn't matter anyway because they decided to go with another brand. Right now they're deciding between a 60" LG, a 60" Pioneer, or a 58" Panasonic...all 1080p plasmas.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Honestly, it seems some people just have a natural dislike for certain companies and will bash them because that's what they see others do, kind of like the Microsoft haters.

I told you so?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Honestly, it seems some people just have a natural dislike for certain companies and will bash them because that's what they see others do, kind of like the Microsoft haters.

I told you so?

Fair enough.

But I have a 60" 720p LG plasma sitting in my garage right now waiting for them to get back from vacation. That's the one they decided on because they wanted the largest screen possible for their money, which is what the Olevia would have provided at the 55" size. They also decided they really couldn't see enough difference between 720p and 1080p to justify the price difference.

I was asking for suggestions based on the criteria I provided. You could have made those suggestions without all the associated sturm and drang, and the name-calling, and they would have gone down much easier. Like I said, this is not the P&N free-for-all. So throttle back some in here next time.

btw, they also decided they wanted all in-wall speakers. I found some JBLs that fit the bill, including a subwoofer, and that met their budget. I'll be installing their system the week after next and will provide some pics of the process and finished product.

 

[daveymark]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I was asking for suggestions based on the criteria I provided....But I have a 60" 720p LG plasma sitting in my garage right now

I knew it would happen

I had some better pricing I was going to suggest on larger 720p TV's, but you said 1080p was the only way. I was going to recommend them in spite of you saying 1080p only, but after your responses to jpeyton I decided to hold back, as you seemed quite clear that your requirements must not vary from what you were looking for.

there seem to be quite a bit of suggestions that can be made about your setup, but they may not fall EXACTLY in line with what you(r family) want(s). IMO it's precisely because they are NOT a/v enthusiasts that they should be able to embrace pliability. if you're open to the suggestions, let us know


of course, your setup sounds nice as it is. good luck with it

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: daveymark

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I was asking for suggestions based on the criteria I provided....But I have a 60" 720p LG plasma sitting in my garage right now

I knew it would happen

I had some better pricing I was going to suggest on larger 720p TV's, but you said 1080p was the only way. I was going to recommend them in spite of you saying 1080p only, but after your responses to jpeyton I decided to hold back, as you seemed quite clear that your requirements must not vary from what you were looking for.

there seem to be quite a bit of suggestions that can be made about your setup, but they may not fall EXACTLY in line with what you(r family) want(s). IMO it's precisely because they are NOT a/v enthusiasts that they should be able to embrace pliability. if you're open to the suggestions, let us know


of course, your setup sounds nice as it is. good luck with it

Initially they only wanted 1080p but after looking at TVs and seeing the price premium between 720 and 1080 for the larger screens they decided that 720p would suit them just fine. I tried to sell them on 1080p because of the future proofing but ultimately it comes down to whatever the customer decides. If they want 720p and in-wall speakers instead, trading some fidelity for aesthetics, no problem. Whatever makes them happy.

Still, it'll be be leaps and bounds beyond what they have currently. In a few years I'll be happy to upgrade them again and by then 120MHz 1080p will probably be much cheaper; maybe 70" or larger will be affordable? We're all well aware in here that what was THE shit last year is shit this year.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Here's an update on progress so far, with pics too.

The install began on Tuesday. Bringing the TV inside and unpacking it my Uncle commented that looked ah heck than he'd thoughit would be. "I looked at 60" TVs at Sam's and they didn't seem that big. This thing is huge." I just smiled.

Cut-in a box behind the TV with a recessed electrical outlet and an outlet for the HDMI cable too. A flat-panel wall mount with a 200 lb+ capacity was added and the TV was put on the wall. Connected the HD-DVD and put on Bourne Identitty. The LG displays a really nice picture from an HD-DHD player.

http://i216.photobucket.com/al...Chicken_bucket/ht1.jpg

After watching a few minutes of the movie my uncle told me "I don't get excited about many things, but I'm really excited about this."

Yesterday I started cutting in all the speakers. Today I ran the wiring and got them installed in the wall.

http://i216.photobucket.com/al...Chicken_bucket/ht2.jpg

The picture is a bit misleading because irl you can't actually see the speakers behind the grills like you do in the pictures.

Here are the rear speakers:

http://i216.photobucket.com/al...Chicken_bucket/ht3.jpg

Here's a shot of the wiring and the area where the receiver/hd-dvd/PS3/cable box/ will be placed.

http://i216.photobucket.com/al...Chicken_bucket/ht4.jpg

The receiver/HD-DVD/PS3/cable box were all wired up this afternoon but I didn't take any pics of that yet. Those will be coming tomorrow. Next week I'll be installing a separate 300W plate amp for the sub to give them some kick too.

Tomorrow I'll be programming the Logitech 890 and finishing up a few minor details. When the plate amp is installed I'll take the final pics and post them.

No dount some people may be wondering a few things, such as why the center channel was positioned verticaly instead of horizontally. (We even had to make a frame for it.) There was one rmajor restriction Between the right edge of the center channel and the left-edge subwoofer there used to be a door. My Uncle closed it up, but now there's just paneling covering the front side, and the opposite side is a shelving unit. I could not build into that area. Had to work around it.

 

[FP]

Nice finish work.

In-wall sub you say? Interesting. Hope it doesn't rattle the TV off the wall!

Any reason they did want to go with a floor standing sub other than looks?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: binister
Nice finish work.

In-wall sub you say? Interesting. Hope it does rattle the TV off the wall!

Any reason they did want to go with a floor standing sub other than looks?

I was worried about rattles too but fortunately the front wall is 1/4" wood paneling that's not only nailed down but is glued to the studs as well. Because of the restrictions with the in-wall speakers (they didn't want anything on the floor, so it was done purely for aesthetics) I was concerned that it wouldn't sound all that great, but it has a very nice tone/imagining and can get surprisingly loud with crystal clarity.

 

[montypythizzle]

LOL VHS tapes.

 

[montypythizzle]

I haz a LG plasma, only 50" though.

 

[iRONic]

Excellent work, Mike!

 

[Muadib]

Originally posted by: iRONic
Excellent work, Mike!

I agree! Can you post the items you finally went with, and their cost?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Thanks Ron. Did you get the check today?

Originally posted by: Muadib

Originally posted by: iRONic
Excellent work, Mike!

I agree! Can you post the items you finally went with, and their cost?

Sure.

60" LG Plasma 60PC1D - $2499

Onkyo TX-SR605 - $388

JBL Speakers, In-Wall
HTI-55 center - $185
HTI-6 rears - $145
HTI-8 fronts - $150
HTI-88 sub - $390

PS3 Spiderman Edition - $400

Toshiba HDA30 - $150

Logitech 890 remote w/ RF extender - $300

Flat panel wall mount - $70

Cables and wiring from Monoprice - $160

Bash 300W Plate Amp (subwoofer) - $160

Adding in taxes (some parts were shipped from Florida so I got taxed on them) and shipping the total damage was @ $5200.

Finished setting everything up today and programmed the remote. Everything works great, except you can't control the PS3 with the remote because Sony, in their infinite wisdom, decided to make the PS3 a Bluetooth device. Go figure. The trim was replaced and the front wall painted. Here's a pic of the finished product:

http://i216.photobucket.com/al...Chicken_bucket/ht7.jpg

Here's a pic of the components in the cabinet. It's still a bit messy but I have to go back next week to install the plate amp for the sub and I'll do some cable management then.

http://i216.photobucket.com/al...Chicken_bucket/ht6.jpg

Out of sight, out of mind for that stuff anyway. The RF->IR converter allows the cabinet to be closed and it works very well. I thought it might be a headache to set up but ended up being fairly easy. My aunt and uncle and even managed to comprehend how to use the remote after a short briefing. Not doubt there will be some calls in the future asking "How do I..." but I made it as simple as possible for them.

They are extremely happy with the final results.

Edit: Dammit. It's showing the wrong pic.

Edit 2: Fixed pic.

 

[emfiend]

This is a cool setup. I like the clean look of the wall the TV is mounted on.

About the placement of the rear speakers.... are they over the seating area or still far enough behind? How is the spatial representation of the sound with them mounted overhead? And do they have pointable tweeters?

I've got to deal with a similar arrangement where the only place it would make sense to mount the rears is overhead (in the ceiling). If necessary, I could mount them on long poles down to ear-level but in my case it would make for a cleaner install to leave them in the ceiling... But then I'm worried about hearing something as though it should be behind sounding like its over your head instead.

Edit: grammar

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: emfiend
This is a cool setup. I like the clean look of the wall the TV is mounted on.

About the placement of the rear speakers.... are they over the seating area or still far enough behind? How is the spatial representation of the sound with them mounted overhead? And do they have pointable tweeters?

I've got to deal with a similar arrangement where the only place it would make sense to mount the rears is overhead (in the ceiling). If necessary, I could mount them on long poles down to ear-level but in my case it would make for a cleaner install to leave them in the ceiling... But then I'm worried about hearing something as though it should be behind sounding like its over your head instead.

Edit: grammar

They are actually still far enough behind. They are located in the ceiling of a bay window. I was worried that their sound might get lost but a little tweaking of the Onkyo level calibration allowed for them to create a nice little spacial image. I was surprised how well those speakers sound, tbh. I didn't hold out much hope for them but they can really crank. Of course, ideally you'd want these speakers on the side instead, but the layout of their living area didn't allow for that configuration.

I can't wait to get the sub amp installed and get some serious thump going since the low end is prety subdued right now. It's really going to freak them out when they hear the sub kicking.

 

[iRONic]

No check today, Mike. Prolly tomano.

That's a fine finish job on the HT, mang. :thumbsup: