Bought my 1st gun!

[daniel1113]

the alternative?

Read my mind

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

"My response was that it wasn't the fault of guns being legal to own and shoot, but instead it was stupid people who enabled the situation to happen (the gun club and the father"

This is why I find your logic extremely hard to follow Disgruntledvirus, even with your own words you manage to defy your own thought process, now if you could just let go of your preconceptions, and just follow through on the one valid thought process you have started, we might begin to see some light in this topic.

Outlawing guns isn't the solution to prevent stupid people from doing stupid things. Outlawing stupid people might fix the problem though (obviously that can't happen and I'm not advocating that it should). You're trying to use the statement I made to make the claim that by restricting guns then things like that couldn't/wouldn't happen, or that's how it's stated it appears. So, should we outlaw cars? How about TV's, because they can tip over an fall on kids who pull them off balance? Stupid people do stupid things.

Add in your arguement of "well if nobody had guns" is purely a thought experiement/hypothetical situation in the US. Guns are here, and they are here to stay. Restricting their use/ownership only limits the ability of law abiding citizens to protect themselves and others from stupid people doing stupid things.

 

[JJ650]

"You'll garner no respect from many on these forums by outright calling gun owners cowards, but I suspect you don't really care."

@JJ, the only part of your post that I truly agree, and do you know what else, I don't need a gun to back me up, and everytime that trouble has found me, it has always been possible to resolve without resort to violence, or even needing the mental support of knowing, that if I couldn't handle the situation, that I've got my "piece" as a backup, as indeed I think you'll find is a regular occurrance throughout most of the world for most normal people.

"My response was that it wasn't the fault of guns being legal to own and shoot, but instead it was stupid people who enabled the situation to happen (the gun club and the father"

This is why I find your logic extremely hard to follow Disgruntledvirus, even with your own words you manage to defy your own thought process, now if you could just let go of your preconceptions, and just follow through on the one valid thought process you have started, we might begin to see some light in this topic.

"No, I'm using logic. I have two very simple arguments: 1) private ownership of firearms does not have a negative effect on crime levels, 2) even if it did, a person's right to protect himself in any single situation outweighs the societal considerations. It doesn't matter what you believe, if you would do some basic research you would know that firearms are used millions of times each year in the US for defensive purposes."

Daniel, again making the same mistakes as Disgruntledvirus, indeed point 1 makes extremely poor justification for your argument.

"How is that a negative approach? Just because you say it's negative doesn't make it so. I keep several fire extinguishers around my house, but I don't have a negative attitude towards fire. It's called being prepared because shit happens."

Again Daniel, a poor reference when considered that the primary purpose of a Fire extinguisher is save lives, whereas the primary purpose of a firearm is to extinguish life.

In regards to the last paragraph, I am not making a statement about you, I am making a statement about living in a climate of fear, and how the perpetuation of that climate of fear is used to manipulate you.It wasn't meant as a personal reference to you, perhaps we're at cross purposes with this particular concept, maybe you don't fully understand the pressure that is put on you to conform to a certain way of thinking by political forces outside your control, mainly through propaganda tools, in this case by a business, whose sole purpose is to sell death.

"This is dumb question. There will always be criminals, and criminals will also do bad things. Telling non-criminals that they don't have the right to defend themselves does not get rid of criminals and violence. Owning a firearm for defensive purposes is not violence."

Daniel, the very word defense is the partner in crime of offense, if you're saying you only want a handgun/firearm for defensive purpose, you are already in a negative mindset.You are already expecting the worse, you have given up hope, that maybe there is an alternative perhaps?. I don't get that impression, you seem to be quite an intelligent chap, I think you know that there is a different way, as yet you seem in-articulate enough to express it, but one way or another, eventually you will make your mind up, stop coming at me with weak, emotional reasons, and floor me with a solid case based on fact, not supposition, or what if. And either way, it won't offend me, nor will I feel the need to be intimidated into some one elses point of view by holding a meteaphorical gun to someones head, to make them comply with an opinion that is repugnant, not because I don't like it, but because it is morally wrong, and totally unjustifiable.

You have your own misguided preconceptions as well. I've never had my "piece" to back me if something happened. I have a CCW, but it doesn't mean I carry. I have the option to if I so desire, but I don't. I don't feel the need to. In fact, I don't own a single weapon that would be considered concealable.

I have weapons, but have never used them in a violent situation, as do many gun owners. I don't know why you think at some point I am going to just go unload on a group of helpless victims. Your label of gun owners being complete, unhinged, John Wayne "kill 'em all" types is so utterly...childish.

 

[bob4432]

This one I find particularly confusing, on the face of it appears logical. But, let's just think about this one a lttle bit more. So the natural solution to this one then, would have been that all the students at Columbine should have been carrying firearms to protect themselves. So when the first shots ring out, there's x number of students, blasting away at each other, randomly, a) because no one knows what the hell is going on, and b) hell, I'm gonna defend myself no matter what, because it's my legal right. Or c) take cover, and let the professionals take care of it, which is what happened. Now I was deeply shocked and appalled by that incident, as I know, many Americans were.And then here's something else to think of, even as unpleasant as it is, what would have been the final death toll, if either solution a or b were in force? At this juncture, surely, you should be asking what lessons have neen learnt from that, and has the correct solution been applied and any further incidents like that been prevented. Only you Americans can truthfully answer that.

well, as tragic as columbine was, since it was at a high school this is a perfect example of why teachers, obviously properly trained should be allowed to carry on campus. as far as you stating that your option c* was elected is a bit of a joke. it was the only choice, but the problem is is that while waiting for the professionals as you put it, allowed the 2 gunmen the time to carry out many additional killings knowing that the professionals would be there to just document and clean up the scene, as is the case many times. had a dozen or so teacher's at the school been carrying that day, i am sure the outcome would have been very, very different.

you need to look at virginia tech - a college campus where things could have gone much better since there are many people at the school that were of the age to carry a handgun - again, since it is illegal to carry on campus, your option c* is the only option, and again, the people didn't wait for the professionals to "take care of it", the people at virginia tech waited basically until the gunman was done doing what he wanted to do while everybody scrambled for cover, but again this could have been averted with just a few ccw people on campus - again, the professionals, or first responders during a active shooting are usually there to document the scene as the situation is usually already over after the gunman has already killed everybody they wanted to and the sight of an armed resistance usually turns into said shooter killing himself.

option c* - in your words - take cover, and let the professionals take care of it

the problem is that you rely to much on your professionals for the said incidents - a school shooting in these examples where the reaction time is many minutes and then figuring out what is going on before the professionals go in. over here, on this side of the pond, people aren't afraid of defending themselves and meeting deadly force with deadly force, it is the laws here that prevent this on a school, so guess what - that is where these things happen because the people committing the crime there will be no armed resistance at the scene. just as the criminals in your homeland know much of their contrymen are unarmed and therefore easy targets.

and you think you are so safe because of your country's firearms restrictions....that is quite funny as the criminals will always have the guns and your civilians will be the targets over and over. gun control has never lead to a reduction in gun related instances, actually it is quite the opposite as there is no deterrence for the offender, just makes the civilians that much more dependent on their government, which you obviously have been indoctrinated into the thinking they like. i am sure your knifes will be confiscated pretty soon and you will be happy with that....go along little sheep, go along.

Human Cost of Gun Control

Looks like the UK isn't immune to Gun Violence - troll your thinking fails even in your own country...what a tool

 

[sourceninja]

The only problem is that when you're caught off guard and under pressure, even a simple task like chambering a round can be difficult (or at least take longer than you expect) unless you've trained to the point where racking the slide is secondary.

But, to each his own. You do what feels right for you.

This is a job for a revolver! (Safe to keep loaded, no springs to wear out, just a point and click interface)

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

never touched a 226, but I shot a baby eagle in 40s&w and thing BEGGED to be held.

shot alright, but boy did it feel GREAT in your hand

Try one, i've never met a man who didn't like the feel of it both aiming and firing.

 

[peasant]

Way to many to catch up on all of it, please don't feel ignored because, I don't respond to your own point.

Daniel, giving up is the very reason you have guns to start with, because you only want the quick instant solution.

For those of you advocating gun for sport/hunting, again I can see the possibility of your argument, but I don't have to agree with it, it's not compulsory to hunt with a gun, and it's more than possible to hunt without a gun. For the sport, yes, a controled enviroment, no possibility of any target lined up in front of the crowd, yes why not.


Bob, excuse me, we've covered that already, with no satisfaction for either side, you are taking an argument that only perpetuates the continuance of a system that you can see with your own eyes isn't working, and is having continuing fatal consequences. My response was has anything of value been learnt and enforced, and the answer to that as you full well know is no and no again, and with the next situation, nothing will change, you complain about these things happening and very much rightly so, but Americans actually lack the balls to make a change for the good, because of a climate of fear that exists, and is being perpetuated by these atrocities.

Again, I can't stress how much of a negative.vindictive vicious circle the American populace is in.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

The only problem is that when you're caught off guard and under pressure, even a simple task like chambering a round can be difficult (or at least take longer than you expect) unless you've trained to the point where racking the slide is secondary.

But, to each his own. You do what feels right for you.

This is a real problem.

In Afghanistan.

I'd suggest you move out of there and keep your guns locked up for when you are not using them to fight terrorists or at the range.

 

[sourceninja]

Way to many to catch up on all of it, please don't feel ignored because, I don't respond to your own point.

Daniel, giving up is the very reason you have guns to start with, because you only want the quick instant solution.

For those of you advocating gun for sport/hunting, again I can see the possibility of your argument, but I don't have to agree with it, it's not compulsory to hunt with a gun, and it's more than possible to hunt without a gun. For the sport, yes, a controled enviroment, no possibility of any target lined up in front of the crowd, yes why not.


Bob, excuse me, we've covered that already, with no satisfaction for either side, you are taking an argument that only perpetuates the continuance of a system that you can see with your own eyes isn't working, and is having continuing fatal consequences. My response was has anything of value been learnt and enforced, and the answer to that as you full well know is no and no again, and with the next situation, nothing will change, you complain about these things happening and very much rightly so, but Americans actually lack the balls to make a change for the good, because of a climate of fear that exists, and is being perpetuated by these atrocities.

Again, I can't stress how much of a negative.vindictive vicious circle the American populace is in.

I usually hunt dear with a pen knife in ninja garb jumping out of trees.

 

[peasant]

Please anyone like to corrobate or deny either of these,
http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF07.htm

 

[bob4432]

Bob, excuse me, we've covered that already, with no satisfaction for either side, you are taking an argument that only perpetuates the continuance of a system that you can see with your own eyes isn't working, and is having continuing fatal consequences. My response was has anything of value been learnt and enforced, and the answer to that as you full well know is no and no again, and with the next situation, nothing will change, you complain about these things happening and very much rightly so, but Americans actually lack the balls to make a change for the good, because of a climate of fear that exists, and is being perpetuated by these atrocities.

campus carry would be a place to start...

anyway, found this in your "gun free world" for you....interesting how these thing could possibly happen when guns are outlawed....

 

[bob4432]

Please anyone like to corrobate or deny either of these,
http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF07.htm

i can find statistics to say what i want too. just look at how many people have been killed in mexico, say just the border area and mexico has very strict gun laws - i think the toll is now nearly 5k for the year...so gun control is working wonderfully there too

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Please anyone like to corrobate or deny either of these,
http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF07.htm

What you didn't get and what you still don't get is this isn't a fucking debate thread. If you want to start a fucking debate thread go ahead. Don't fucking ruin someone elses thread douche bag.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Way to many to catch up on all of it, please don't feel ignored because, I don't respond to your own point.

Daniel, giving up is the very reason you have guns to start with, because you only want the quick instant solution.

For those of you advocating gun for sport/hunting, again I can see the possibility of your argument, but I don't have to agree with it, it's not compulsory to hunt with a gun, and it's more than possible to hunt without a gun. For the sport, yes, a controled enviroment, no possibility of any target lined up in front of the crowd, yes why not.


Bob, excuse me, we've covered that already, with no satisfaction for either side, you are taking an argument that only perpetuates the continuance of a system that you can see with your own eyes isn't working, and is having continuing fatal consequences. My response was has anything of value been learnt and enforced, and the answer to that as you full well know is no and no again, and with the next situation, nothing will change, you complain about these things happening and very much rightly so, but Americans actually lack the balls to make a change for the good, because of a climate of fear that exists, and is being perpetuated by these atrocities.

Again, I can't stress how much of a negative.vindictive vicious circle the American populace is in.

I don't think it's that, they have their constitution which means jack sheit when it comes to todays situation, either the army would be on the governments side and pea shooters or not they would be toast or it would be on their side and their puny little pea shooters would not matter anyway. The days when people in the US could actually accomplish a revolution with handguns are LOOOOOONG gone and everyone who isn't just romantisicing about "the good old days" knows that.

So it moved on to self protection and pretty much all the bad guys use are "illegal firearms".

Well no sheit they are illegal, they are pretty much ALL stolen LEGAL firearms that twats who don't bother to lock their guns up properly have readily handed over to criminals.

THAT is where "illegal firearms" come from, well the overwhelming majority at least.

US? I know some very brave men from the US but most, they are just scared.

Someone actually wrote "how would you feel if you had to go to the supermarket unarmed" as a real argument.

It's quite pathetic.

 

[sourceninja]

I guess I agree. I mean there is no way a small force of rebels hiding in caves could ever outwit the might of US military and cause horrible collateral damage. No way they could ever kill thousands or bring down buildings. No way they could ever make us live in such fear we take our shoes off at airports....

There is no way small cells of resistance fighters can even survive long enough to get a strong following of the public and cause massive revolt. There is no way they could ambush soldiers and secure more advanced weapons. This just doesn't happen.....

Oh wait, it does happen right freaking now...

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

i can find statistics to say what i want too. just look at how many people have been killed in mexico, say just the border area and mexico has very strict gun laws - i think the toll is now nearly 5k for the year...so gun control is working wonderfully there too

Well, of course you can use statistics between apples and oranges and make them fit if you'd want to bad enough, which is what you are doing.

Real world statistics compare similar situations though.

Deny it all you want, no other nation is as chickenshit scared as the US, you live in and thrive on fear, fear for the brown man, fear for the black men, fear for the terrists, fear for your neighbour.

Apparently the French and us forget to return your balls afterwards, sorry about that, we fed them to the Italians.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I guess I agree. I mean there is no way a small force of rebels hiding in caves could ever outwit the might of US military and cause horrible collateral damage. No way they could ever kill thousands or bring down buildings. No way they could ever make us live in such fear we take our shoes off at airports....

There is no way small cells of resistance fighters can even survive long enough to get a strong following of the public and cause massive revolt. There is no way they could ambush soldiers and secure more advanced weapons. This just doesn't happen.....

Oh wait, it does happen right freaking now...

Oh ho ho ho....

Now you have stepped into my territory and yeah, the only reason why the Taliban and OBL are not eliminated is because the US is a pussified nation.

We had them, the LOT of them, between us and the NA they were locked in, we had air support and targeters but guess what... OBL and the Taliban wasn't important, sure, we could win the war, take out the most wanted man on earth, eradicate the safe keeping of Al Quaida BUT SH HAD WMD'S!

So left were 13k soldiers without air support.... You know why? Because the US admin managed to scare the living daylights out of the US population who shivvered in their panties.

But i assume that your whole argument is "box cutters are enough" right?

Because if you are not completely retarded you'd know that if the Admin was in any danger and could actually use the entire military as defence, well... i think that even you understand that downtown Kabul would be a happy place after the bombings in comparison.

Or are you saying that your military is not all that good and can't even handle some twats with handguns?

 

[peasant]

@sourceninja or whatever it is, And I guess, that was you stood in front of the Pentagon with your .22 popping away at that f+++ off jet that flew into it, and single handed saved your entire nation from utter destruction.

Shit sorry man, that was just a bad dream, the reality is, that's you in Afghanistan hunting down Osama single handedly.

Oh my, what a goddam hero you be, boy.

 

[nick1985]

@sourceninja or whatever it is, And I guess, that was you stood in front of the Pentagon with your .22 popping away at that f+++ off jet that flew into it, and single handed saved your entire nation from utter destruction.

Shit sorry man, that was just a bad dream, the reality is, that's you in Afghanistan hunting down Osama single handedly.

Oh my, what a goddam hero you be, boy.

get hit by a bus

 

[JJ650]

Oh...because it has worked SO well for you all

Violent fun crimes rates have increased in the UK since the ban, although the past year it did fall by 2% from the previous year.
How do you explain an increase in the use of firearms in violent crimes after the ban?
Pacifism fail. It doesn't work all of the time my friend.

As the point for hunting and not using a gun. I also use a bow, but it's tricky as hell to nail a deer a hundred plus yards out with one , let alone killing it outright if you do manage to hit it.
Bow hunting IS fun, but a rifle is the quicker kill (assuming your aim was correct).

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

@sourceninja or whatever it is, And I guess, that was you stood in front of the Pentagon with your .22 popping away at that f+++ off jet that flew into it, and single handed saved your entire nation from utter destruction.

Shit sorry man, that was just a bad dream, the reality is, that's you in Afghanistan hunting down Osama single handedly.

Oh my, what a goddam hero you be, boy.

Son, this is an American forum and they take terrorism fucking ser... hehe iously

They rea... lmao ... lly want to catch the bad guys.

So much that... oh fucking hell i can't keep a straight face.

So fucking much that they pulled almost every FUCKING soldier out of it, the President said that he didn't know where OBL was nor did he CARE and they went on to spread Al Quaida to Iraq.

Great fucking job, no one could have done a better job for recruiting new and more insane Al Quaida members.

Truth is... Handled correctly and with proper air support, it would have taken months, not even years to eradicate the Taliban and with them (and Pakistans attitude towards them) Al Quaida.

For some reason, that wasn't a good plan, against ALL military advice, bomb the sheit out of Iraq and pull almost all troops there instead. Especially us spec ops who were ordered to find anything that even resembled a WMD, leave the bunkers unguarded, perhaps someone is stupid enough to believe that the stuff stolen while we let them steal it is the WMD's... Goddammit, stuff is too old, just can't get a break.

And yes, at one point the TFB was doing something just like what you said.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Oh...because it has worked SO well for you all

Violent fun crimes rates have increased in the UK since the ban, although the past year it did fall by 2% from the previous year.
How do you explain an increase in the use of firearms in violent crimes after the ban?
Pacifism fail. It doesn't work all of the time my friend.

As the point for hunting and not using a gun. I also use a bow, but it's tricky as hell to nail a deer a hundred plus yards out with one , let alone killing it outright if you do manage to hit it.
Bow hunting IS fun, but a rifle is the quicker kill (assuming your aim was correct).

It's still less than half of the US statistics.

Most "illegal" weapons in the US are stolen legallly purchased weapons.

I mean, come the fuck on, you should buy a clue for 500 000.

 

[sourceninja]

Oh ho ho ho....

Now you have stepped into my territory and yeah, the only reason why the Taliban and OBL are not eliminated is because the US is a pussified nation.

We had them, the LOT of them, between us and the NA they were locked in, we had air support and targeters but guess what... OBL and the Taliban wasn't important, sure, we could win the war, take out the most wanted man on earth, eradicate the safe keeping of Al Quaida BUT SH HAD WMD'S!

So left were 13k soldiers without air support.... You know why? Because the US admin managed to scare the living daylights out of the US population who shivvered in their panties.

But i assume that your whole argument is "box cutters are enough" right?

Because if you are not completely retarded you'd know that if the Admin was in any danger and could actually use the entire military as defence, well... i think that even you understand that downtown Kabul would be a happy place after the bombings in comparison.

Or are you saying that your military is not all that good and can't even handle some twats with handguns?

You think the US is really going to go into it's own cities and bomb them to try to stop a revolution? Doubtful, that would only help lend a hand to winning over the military and eventually winning the war.

In a civil war battle, all you really need to worry about is land based action to get off the ground. I have equipment just as good as modern US soldiers. Hell some of my friends even have very nice fully automatic weapons (LEGALLY no less). I'm not talking about using handguns in a rifle fight either. I'm talking about using weapons like my AR-15 or AK-47 or my friends mp5 and FN-FAL to raid, secure, and use weapon locations placed around this country. Hell the gun range a mile from my house has a M249 Squad Automatic Weapon and about 100 other fully automatic weapons for rent. You also obviously wouldn't engage the forces face to face. You engage them in ways that are hard to fight, such as public places, bombings, raids, etc. You do this with decentralized cells that are hard to track down and stop. The Northern Ireland conflict, Israel conflicts, etc all show that it is extremely hard to stop a terrorist group working among your own country men.

You don't even need to 'win'. You just have to make the other side look bad enough that you are a better option.

I'm not saying this should happen and I really hope it never does. But the fact stands that if enough people in this country wanted to change it, they will find a way. Without being armed, it's that much harder. The fastest way to having no freedom is to be unarmed.

That said, I'm done debating because it is pointless. Guns are here, they are not going anywhere. The cat is out of the bag. I own many guns for many reasons. Most are for enjoyment. I love to shoot my weapons at the range. Others, such as my shotgun, revolver, and personal carry are for protection. I hope not to need them, but I have always been taught that if you are able, and it is reasonable, then you should prepare for situations.

I carry a leatherman because sometimes I need a knife, or a screw driver, or pliers. I carry a firearm because I never know if a time may come where I might need a firearm. It's small, unobtrusive, and potentially useful. There are no downsides to carrying it.

I also have a spare tire, road flares, jumper cables, kitty litter, a first aid kit, water, and a blanket in my trunk. In my house I have a fire extinguisher, weather radio, fire alarms, security system, and a fire proof safe. I own a snow blower, but I also have a shovel just in case.

I'm not scared of anything, I'm prepared. I got into firearms because it was fun, not because I needed to defend myself at the age of 5 years old. I appreciate firearms because I have seen how to use them properly and I respect the power and impact they can have. The same way I respect my live blade I bought. I don't need or even want to use a live sword for self defense. I bought it because it was cool and I wanted to learn how to use it.

 

[shortylickens]

Wow. I guess we dont have this fucking conversation enough in P&N an OT where somebody asks about gun violence. We also need it in a gun appreciation thread.

Gonna have to vote this into P&N.

 

[JJ650]

I am clued in.

How many of the weapons in the UK used in those crimes could be have been considered legal?

The fact is that it doesn't matter if the fire arm is legal or not. A criminal doesn't give two shits about that.
The gist of that was, the ban was supposed to reduce the use of firearms in violent crimes. It hasn't.
From what I understand, they can't even be used in defense should someone feel warranted enough to use one. Isn't there a case where a private citizen defended his home and himself with a shot gun is now sitting in prison because of that. You'll have to excuse me for not hunting down an article about it, but I am sure you may know more about it than I.

I'm not comparing the US to UK firearm related crimes. No shit it's higher here. Has been for a while. More guns + more people here.
Pure numbers game.


As far as the Iraq/Afghan/OBL shit...I agree. It's been pussy footed.