Boeing problems...

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Same reason why Intel is in trouble. Non-technical managers. Too many of them. And you know what's the worst thing? These managers have an actual strong disdain for anyone with technical knowledge or who dares to ask simple but relevant questions.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Same reason why Intel is in trouble. Non-technical managers. Too many of them. And you know what's the worst thing? These managers have an actual strong disdain for anyone with technical knowledge or who dares to ask simple but relevant questions.
Sounds like MAGA
 
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The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), which is conducting a special audit following the Air India crash, said multiple defects had resurfaced "many times", suggesting lapses in oversight. While the regulator did not name the airlines involved or specify the nature of the defects, the airports in question serve key carriers such as market leader IndiGo, Air India and Air India Express.
 

quikah

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2003
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Some news on the Air India crash. Take this with a grain (block) of salt as the report is not released yet, but seems like the sudden loss of power might have been caused by fuel cutoff being thrown.

Aviation subreddit says this reporter is highly respected, so seems story might have some merit.
 

quikah

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2003
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Preliminary report released.

The Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec.
In the cockpit voice recording, one of the pilots is heard asking the other why did he cutoff.

The other pilot responded that he did not do so.

Either someone made a massive error or this was a murder/suicide.
 
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Dec 10, 2005
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Preliminary report released.

The Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec.
In the cockpit voice recording, one of the pilots is heard asking the other why did he cutoff.

The other pilot responded that he did not do so.

Either someone made a massive error or this was a murder/suicide.
From what I read, a really big fuck up considering the switches cannot be accidentally flipped - they have a locking mechanism that prevents that.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
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The Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec.
In the cockpit voice recording, one of the pilots is heard asking the other why did he cutoff.

The other pilot responded that he did not do so.

Either someone made a massive error or this was a murder/suicide.
I figure it was the latter. I figure they designed that cutoff in such a way that it could not be initiated while failing to realize what you're doing.

Quite possibly another instance of pilot mental health issues not addressed because it's usually career suicide to admit them. This is certainly true in the USA and probably in India as well.
 
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K1052

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Aug 21, 2003
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Preliminary report released.

The Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec.
In the cockpit voice recording, one of the pilots is heard asking the other why did he cutoff.

The other pilot responded that he did not do so.

Either someone made a massive error or this was a murder/suicide.

Honestly long past time to have CCTV in the cockpit of new jets. Do the same rolling two hours like the CVR.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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In my job we’d call that an inadvertent command. The design of the physical controls should always require at least two steps before the command happens and at least two controls have to be defeated before the catastrophic hazard can occur.

Training also provides mitigation to inadvertent commanding.

However, if the person at the controls thinks they are doing the right thing there’s no amount of physical hazard controls that can prevent you from doing the wrong thing.

Again training can help mitigate this but you can never completely eliminate the person doing the wrong thing when they think it’s the right thing to do.

People get tired, distracted, and make errors. I personally have several thousand of hours doing flight control sending 10,000’s of commands and over those hours I made 2-3 command errors. They didn’t have a negative impact thankfully but they were still errors. Mostly due to being tired and juggling multiple activities.

We would track command errors and have reviews to look for any trends so we could try and mitigate any systemic problems. We still couldn’t get much past 99.99% accuracy because people make mistakes.
 
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yottabit

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So tragic, it’s somehow more terrifying than I could have imagined. I’m highlighting the most relevant parts of the report below:
IMG_1400.jpeg

After the fuel cutoff was recognized someone did initiate the procedure to restart the engines but obviously they had way too little altitude.

This is what the controls in question look like:
1752339889533.jpeg
 
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In my job we’d call that an inadvertent command.
What would cause a pilot to inadvertently switch off fuel to both engines? It clearly says fuel control over there. And then telling the other pilot, no, I didn't do that. Seems like a pretty simple case of planned suicide or being influenced by threats from an external malicious entity.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Scary. Not the first time a commercial airliner was crashed due to pilot suicide. No way both of these switches were moved by accident. One of those two pilots answered in a way to cover himself. Likely the one who said it wasn’t me. He knows the CVR will pick up the conversation.
 
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Scary. Not the first time a commercial airliner was crashed due to pilot suicide. No way both of these switches were moved by accident. One of those two pilots answered in a way to cover himself. Likely the one who said it wasn’t me. He knows the CVR will pick up the conversation.
My suspicion is on the younger one but I heard someone say that the senior pilot was fed up of flying and wanted to retire to take care of his only surviving parent, his dad. If that's true, then at least the senior pilot gets ruled out automatically because he desperately wanted to care for his dad. Or did he try to be "noble" hoping that the proceeds from the airline compensation would set his dad up for the rest of his life?

Reports also mentioned significant friction between the American and Indian investigation teams, with the Americans threatening to leave because they were frustrated with how slow things were going.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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What would cause a pilot to inadvertently switch off fuel to both engines? It clearly says fuel control over there. And then telling the other pilot, no, I didn't do that. Seems like a pretty simple case of planned suicide or being influenced by threats from an external malicious entity.

People do weird stuff for strange reasons:


Could be mechanical failure
Could be human error
Could be malicious

Sadly, we will probably never know the full story. All we have is the black box data:

According to the report, the flight lasted around 30 seconds between takeoff and crash. It said that once the aircraft achieved its top recorded speed, “the Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another” within a second. The report did not say how the switches could have flipped to the cutoff position during the flight

The switches were flipped back into the run position, the report said, but the plane could not gain power quickly enough to stop its descent after the aircraft had begun to lose altitude.

Along with the cockpit recording:

The report also indicated confusion in the cockpit moments before the crash.

In the flight’s final moment, one pilot was heard on the cockpit voice recorder asking the other why he cut off the fuel. “The other pilot responded that he did not do so,” the report said.

From the picture in @yottabit post, there are two separate switches that both require special access to operate:

1752343697248.png

There was a 4-second delay between switch operations. In physical practice, that would be a two-part manually-operated movement:

1. Lift & switch #1
2. Lift & switch #2 a few seconds later

1752344905280.png

From Captain Ranganathan:

"It has to be manually done," Captain Ranganathan told NDTV when asked if there is any way fuel can be shut off to the engines of the Dreamliner. "It cannot be done automatically or due to a power failure because the fuel selectors are not the sliding type. They are designed to stay in a slot, and you have to pull them out to move them up or down. So, the possibility of inadvertently moving them to the "off" position doesn't arise. It's definitely a case of deliberate manual selection to move it to 'off'."

1752343820068.png


According to the AAIB report, both fuel control switches governing engines 1 and 2 were turned from "RUN" to "CUTOFF" within one second of each other. The switches, located on the central pedestal of the cockpit, are protected by a guard rail and require deliberate effort to toggle. They are not touch-sensitive and cannot be triggered by turbulence, power failure, or software glitch.

There was no time to recover:

“Unfortunately, the altitude was so low that the engines were only beginning to recover and they didn’t have enough time,” Tozer told Sky News.

Two observations:

1. Pilots are trained extensively on different emergency scenarios . Re: Miracle on the Hudson

2. Airliners have crazy amounts of redundancy these days. As the saying goes, every rule is written in blood.

Here's a good interview with a former Boeing 737 instructor:


"I've heard that the captain had some medical history. Nothing else explains why, at the takeoff point, just as rotation starts, both switches are moved one after the other to the 'off' position. It has to be deliberately done. According to the cockpit voice recorder, one pilot asks, 'Why did you do it?' and the other pilot responds, 'I did not do it.' This is where the report shows some discrepancies, almost like a cover-up," Captain Ranganathan told NDTV.

"It's mandatory for all pilots to use headphones during takeoff and landing. The cockpit voice recorder will clearly indicate whether the audio comes from CAM 1 (captain) or CAM 2 (co-pilot) based on the cockpit area microphone. So, using vague terms like 'one pilot said this and one pilot said that' is very poor reporting," he added.

As per cockpit procedures, the pilot flying (PF) -- in this case, First Officer Clive Kunder -- would have had both hands on the control column during takeoff. The pilot monitoring (PM), Captain Sumeet Sabharwal, would have had free hands. That point, Captain Ranganathan said, is crucial.

"The report also clearly states that the captain was the pilot monitoring, and the co-pilot was the pilot flying." he added. "The pilot flying has both hands on the control column during rotation, as it's not automatic. They are focused on rotating the aircraft and setting the autopilot, so both hands are occupied. The pilot monitoring, however, is the only one with free hands. Using vague terms to suggest otherwise seems misleading. The action was deliberate, which is why I said it has to be manually done."

The data:

1. The plane crashed due to the two fuel switches being manually tripped

2. The captain apparently had a known medical history and had been on extended medical leave prior to the crash.

3. There are no psychiatric profiles required

4. Crews are being pushed to the limit & losing their families

What we don't know is:

1. Was it malicious?

2. Was there an odd medication reaction or a panic attack involved? Sometimes people do weird stuff when under stress or under the influence of medications, which may explain why the other pilot said he didn't do anything.

3. Was sabotage involved?

Then there's this:

"I've heard that several pilots at Air India reported that the captain had a medical condition and was on medical leave for some time. If top management was unaware of this, I'd be surprised because many line pilots knew about it," Captain Ranganathan said.

Well yeah...pilots only ever get 6 month's worth of job security because your next physical could end your career, so what are the incentives? To hide your medical condition, to see doctors on the side, etc. Throw in being overworked. family stress, etc. The system could be better! Tragedy all around tho :(
 
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Paratus

Lifer
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So tragic, it’s somehow more terrifying than I could have imagined. I’m highlighting the most relevant parts of the report below:
View attachment 127024

After the fuel cutoff was recognized someone did initiate the procedure to restart the engines but obviously they had way too little altitude.

This is what the controls in question look like:
View attachment 127025
Two actions to trigger - lift and move the switch and someone correct me but if it had only happened on a single engine they would have likely been ok so two failures (both switches thrown) before realization of the catastrophic hazard.

Doesn’t seem like a Boeing problem unless there was something in the circuitry that affected both switch positions at the same time.
 
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Paratus

Lifer
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What would cause a pilot to inadvertently switch off fuel to both engines? It clearly says fuel control over there. And then telling the other pilot, no, I didn't do that. Seems like a pretty simple case of planned suicide or being influenced by threats from an external malicious entity.
One option? Tired and rushed. Triggers the wrong switches thinking they were the switches for whatever activity he was supposed to be doing.

Other pilot asks him why he hit the cutoffs and he says he didn’t because he actually believed he was doing something different.
 
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One option? Tired and rushed. Triggers the wrong switches thinking they were the switches for whatever activity he was supposed to be doing.
Any other switches that need to be used in dual mode with quick activation one after the other that a pilot routinely needs to do?
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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One option? Tired and rushed. Triggers the wrong switches thinking they were the switches for whatever activity he was supposed to be doing.

Other pilot asks him why he hit the cutoffs and he says he didn’t because he actually believed he was doing something different.

I do work for machine shops & have seen this happen on big, expensive machines that people have been using for decades. "Tired & busy" causes HUGE numbers of problems!! It's a top automotive killer as well:

Drowsy driving is a significant public health concern in the United States. Estimates suggest bmotor vehicle crashes related to drowsy driving account for roughly 20% of all motor vehicle crashes. Data from the AAA Foundation indicate that sleepiness is implicated in 21% of all motor vehicle crashes resulting in a death and 13% of motor vehicle crashes resulting inhospitalizations—totaling over 300,000 police-reported crashes, over 100,000 injuries, and asmany as 6,400 deaths in the United States each year. Moreover, these data also showed that adolescents and emerging adults (individuals aged 16-24) accounted for approximately 20% of these drowsy driving crashes.

In fact, motor vehicle crashes are the second leading cause of death among teenagers. The estimated impact of drowsy driving is similar to the estimated impact of other well-known causes of impaired driving, including drunk driving. As such, it’s no surprise that drowsy driving is often called the “fourth D” among drunk, drugged, and distracted causes of impaired driving
 
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