"Bodybuilding" routine

[presidentender]

3 day split. Each day is built around a compound lift. Ab work may be inserted where desired. Isolateral work is performed to encourage symmetry. Redundancies are intentional where present. Justifications follow exercises in parenthesis.

I don't think this is the best ev-ar, or that it's a SS replacement.

Bench day:
Barbell Bench press (base lift)
Pec flyes (delts and triceps are likely to be the limiting factor on bench press; pec flyes allow you to continue to work our pecs after the failure of the smaller muscles. Grants a great pump.)
Dumbbell lateral raises (bench press engages mostly anterior delts; these keep us from becoming unbalanced)
Isolateral Dumbbell Triceps extensions (bench press engages mostly the medial and lateral heads of the triceps; these engage the long head more effectively if performed with good form, without involving the deltoids)
Dumbbell curls or Dumbbell biceps isolation curls (the Biceps are dynamic stabilizers only in bench press; here, they're more effectively stimulated as prime movers)
Rectus Abdominus exercise of choice.

Squat day:
Barbell Squats (base lift)(go deep to engage glutes as much as possible. Given the choice, add depth, rather than weight)
Isolateral leg extensions (pump for quads)
Isolateral hamstring curls (hamstrings are targeted directly. They get some love in squats, but not as much as they can handle).
Jump squats, or calf raises, if concerned about joints. (Again, squats target calves, but not as strongly as they can handle being targeted)

Deadlift day:
Barbell or trap bar deadlifts (base lift)
Dumbbell rows (targets the upper back much more strongly than deadlifts)
Dumbbell shrugs (isolates traps)
Dumbbell side bends (obliques)
Dumbbell rear raises (isolates posterior delts, which have received little attention elsewhere)
Pull-ups, assisted pull-ups, or lat pull-downs (targets lats)

My preference is relatively low reps on the base exercises, and relatively high reps and number of sets on the isolation exercises. New lifters should err on the side of too many sets with too light weight, in order to aid in development of muscle memory for good form.

Alright, tear it apart.

EDIT: Forgot pull-ups. lulz guyz.

 

[SlitheryDee]

I've always built my workouts with this kind of routine in mind. I've never seen anything wrong with it and I get great results. I also don't see where this kind of workout would be terribly deficient in the functional strength category because it's still giving the most emphasis to the major compound lifts, but it adds more isolation exercises to address the aesthetic goals of the lifter. I may not do the exact exercises listed here but the philosophy behind it is one I mostly agree with.

 

[brikis98]

Over the years, my weight lifting progression has been:

1. Walking into a gym knowing nothing and doing workouts that almost exclusively focused on the "beach muscles" - chest, biceps, abs.
2. Finding crappy bodybuilding routines online, but still only focusing on the upper body.
3. Finding better bodybuilding routines online and doing a 3 day split that hits each body part once a week. In other words, roughly the routine you outline above.
4. Picked up Starting Strength. Learned about proper strength training and about focusing on performance rather than looks. Massive facepalm. Switched to the Bill Starr 5x5 routine.
5. Became interested in improving not only my strength, but also my endurance, speed, power, coordination, etc. Switched to Crossfit.

Roughly speaking, as I went from stage 1 to stage 5 above, my routine got more and more effective at producing results quickly, safely and functionally. Obviously, stages 1 and 2 were just plain ignorance and aren't worth discussing. However, relevant to to this thread is the transition from stage 3 to stage 4.

I spent the most time in stage 3, roughly 1.5 years, and the entire time I did a routine *very* similar to what you posted above. My #1 priority was, well, too look good naked: I worked really hard to get a big chest, huge biceps, chiseled shoulders, visible six pack and big quads. Gains in strength were just a (nice) side effect that didn't overly concern me.

How did I do? Firstly, I looked nothing like a bodybuilder. Part of this I'm sure was due to a less than perfect diet, but in reality, I just didn't put on all that much muscle mass. I made some good strength gains in a few lifts - especially the bench press - but was pretty mediocre in most of the other lifts. Worse still, a lot of the strength I had worked on proved quite useless to me in daily life. For example, I spent lots of time doing leg extensions, leg press and hamstring curls, but I saw no improvements in my sprinting, jumping or skating (I played hockey at the time) abilities. I could curl a huge amount of weight... but my pull-up strength sucked. Not caring about functional strength, I would deadlift with straps, so I also had a pitifully weak grip. Finally, I had a number of nagging injuries as a result of this routine. My rotator cuff took a severe beating from a lot of very heavy bench combined with too many dumbbell raises as I didn't do nearly enough pull-ups, rows or overhead press (which, incidentally, is missing from your routine) to compensate.

After I finally switched to the Bill Starr 5x5 routine I made some incredible progress. Even though I was no beginner by then, in some 3 months, I added ~50lbs to my squat, ~85lbs to my deadlift, 40lbs to my bench press, and 30lbs to my OH press. I immediately started seeing the benefits of this in my daily life: every stride I made in hockey was noticeably more explosive. Helping my sister move a huge ass couch up several flights of stairs was relatively easy. Picking my gf up and carrying her around (just for fun) was a breeze. I weened myself off of straps and developed some serious grip strength. I also added about 20lbs during the time, although a little too much of it was fat because my diet was still pretty crappy. And the ultimate irony was this: my body looked *much* better and more bodybuilder like after these 3 months. My chest, shoulders, back and legs all got noticeably bigger and I frequently got the "how often do you workout?" type questions.

So does that mean the BB routine you posted is crap? No, not at all. It will produce results, especially if you have a better diet than I did and take special care to balance your exercises. However, in my experience, for the beginner and even most intermediate lifters, a strength training routine will ultimately still produce better results across the board. The fact that you'll get stronger and your strength will be more functional from a strength training routine is almost a given. As long as you follow a well designed routine (such as SS or Bill Starr), safety is also largely guaranteed. So the only thing left is muscle size. For a beginner, there probably won't be any difference in hypertrophy between a BB routine and a strength training routine. For an intermediate, if there is any difference, it would be small, and largely nullified if the strength training routine ultimately lets you use significantly heavier weights.

 

[skace]

"So really - there are no golden programs. Don't listen to anyone telling you there otherwise. There is only training and progression through said training. Everyone else is selling something or trying to get you to buy into their 'thing' so they feel better about themselves. If progress is happening, for the most part the program is doing it's job and you don't need to be thinking about it until it stops working."

You look at your stages as if the previous ones were failures brikis, but they were all parts of progress. The only problem is when there isn't any progress and you refuse to change what you are doing.

As to the OP, day 1 and 3 look real busy, but maybe that's just me.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: skace
"So really - there are no golden programs. Don't listen to anyone telling you there otherwise. There is only training and progression through said training. Everyone else is selling something or trying to get you to buy into their 'thing' so they feel better about themselves. If progress is happening, for the most part the program is doing it's job and you don't need to be thinking about it until it stops working."

You look at your stages as if the previous ones were failures brikis, but they were all parts of progress. The only problem is when there isn't any progress and you refuse to change what you are doing.

That's a very short sited approach to anything in life. It doesn't take into account:

1. That even if you're making progress, you could be making progress faster or more efficiently with a better routine.
2. Making progress on just a small percentage of your goals - e.g. just bench press - is nowhere near as good as making progress across the board.
3. Making progress at the risk of injury is not worth it.

The fact is that everyone has a finite amount of time to do their training and striving for anything less than a "golden program" is a waste of your time. An inferior routine, even if it does produce some kind of results, is still the wrong choice.

 

[presidentender]

Originally posted by: skace

As to the OP, day 1 and 3 look real busy, but maybe that's just me.

They are, at least compared to Squat day. I tend to do more cardio and auxiliary stuff on Squat day (sometimes, I add leg press or another calf exercise; other times, I'll do more abs). You can get through all the isolation exercises relatively quick because you don't need rest between them.

Originally posted by: brikis98
The fact is that everyone has a finite amount of time to do their training and striving for anything less than a "golden program" is a waste of your time. An inferior routine, even if it does produce some kind of results, is still the wrong choice.

True dat. I wish I'd come in to the weight room the first time knowing what I know now.

 

[Eric62]

I like your routine for the most part - except for one area that almost the entire world overlooks:
You base your routine on the 7 day week - correct?
The week is a arbitrarily created measure of time not based on any natural events, such as; The day is based on the rotation of the Earth on it's axis, the month is based upon the moons rotation around the Earth, and the year is based on the Earths rotation around the Sun. The week is completely baseless.
So why would you assume your body will be completely recovered and ready for another squat workout (for example) in one week? It may, or it may not. Most likely not.
Recovery has always been my weakest link. My ability to enter the pain zone and train my deepest fibers is my strong suit. To balance the two, I need 9 to 10 days off between training deadlifts.
My basic routine - as an example, not a recommendation:
Day 1: Legs (centered around the squat) and Abs.
Day 2: Chest (centered around the bench) and Arms.
Day 3: Back (centered around the deadlift, followed by Lats) and Abs.
Day 4: Shoulders (centered around the overhead BB press), Arms, and Rotator Cuffs.
I do three of those work outs per week, picking up were I left off the following week.
Week 1: 1,2,3.
Week 2: 4,1,2.
Week 3: 3,4,1.
Week 4: 2,3,4. Ect...
Cardio I do for 30 minutes after weights - but only when not peaking for a powerlifting meet - then I don't do any cardio for at least a month.
I really agree with your low reps on compound movements, and higher reps on isolation work.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: Eric62
I like your routine for the most part - except for one area that almost the entire world overlooks:
You base your routine on the 7 day week - correct?
The week is a arbitrarily created measure of time not based on any natural events, such as; The day is based on the rotation of the Earth on it's axis, the month is based upon the moons rotation around the Earth, and the year is based on the Earths rotation around the Sun. The week is completely baseless.
So why would you assume your body will be completely recovered and ready for another squat workout (for example) in one week? It may, or it may not. Most likely not.
Recovery has always been my weakest link. My ability to enter the pain zone and train my deepest fibers is my strong suit. To balance the two, I need 9 to 10 days off between training deadlifts.
My basic routine - as an example, not a recommendation:
Day 1: Legs (centered around the squat) and Abs.
Day 2: Chest (centered around the bench) and Arms.
Day 3: Back (centered around the deadlift, followed by Lats) and Abs.
Day 4: Shoulders (centered around the overhead BB press), Arms, and Rotator Cuffs.
I do three of those work outs per week, picking up were I left off the following week.
Week 1: 1,2,3.
Week 2: 4,1,2.
Week 3: 3,4,1.
Week 4: 2,3,4. Ect...
Cardio I do for 30 minutes after weights - but only when not peaking for a powerlifting meet - then I don't do any cardio for at least a month.
I really agree with your low reps on compound movements, and higher reps on isolation work.

Uh, what? What makes you think your body is NOT recovered from squats in a week? What do you say to those millions of people who do squats 3x a week? Those professional powerlifters and o-lifters? What you're saying has little biological basis and I'd like to see some sort of research for your claims. You cannot do the same weighted exercise on back-to-back days obviously, but you underestimate the healing capabilities of the body when it comes to hypertrophy and muscle repair.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Uh, what? What makes you think your body is NOT recovered from squats in a week? What do you say to those millions of people who do squats 3x a week? Those professional powerlifters and o-lifters? What you're saying has little biological basis and I'd like to see some sort of research for your claims. You cannot do the same weighted exercise on back-to-back days obviously, but you underestimate the healing capabilities of the body when it comes to hypertrophy and muscle repair.

:thumbsup:

Though, I'd amend your argument a little. If you're interested in maximizing muscle mass, then you definitely shouldn't be working the same muscles two days in a row. Crossfit, for example, values strength and endurance over raw mass and often has workouts that do squats one day, air squats the next, or something like that.

That being said, there is no reason you can't squat 3x per week. Everything I've read indicates your body needs 24 hours or so to completely recover.

 

[Deeko]

I am going to publicly refrain from commenting on this topic.

 

[Eric62]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: Eric62
I like your routine for the most part - except for one area that almost the entire world overlooks:
You base your routine on the 7 day week - correct?
The week is a arbitrarily created measure of time not based on any natural events, such as; The day is based on the rotation of the Earth on it's axis, the month is based upon the moons rotation around the Earth, and the year is based on the Earths rotation around the Sun. The week is completely baseless.
So why would you assume your body will be completely recovered and ready for another squat workout (for example) in one week? It may, or it may not. Most likely not.
Recovery has always been my weakest link. My ability to enter the pain zone and train my deepest fibers is my strong suit. To balance the two, I need 9 to 10 days off between training deadlifts.
My basic routine - as an example, not a recommendation:
Day 1: Legs (centered around the squat) and Abs.
Day 2: Chest (centered around the bench) and Arms.
Day 3: Back (centered around the deadlift, followed by Lats) and Abs.
Day 4: Shoulders (centered around the overhead BB press), Arms, and Rotator Cuffs.
I do three of those work outs per week, picking up were I left off the following week.
Week 1: 1,2,3.
Week 2: 4,1,2.
Week 3: 3,4,1.
Week 4: 2,3,4. Ect...
Cardio I do for 30 minutes after weights - but only when not peaking for a powerlifting meet - then I don't do any cardio for at least a month.
I really agree with your low reps on compound movements, and higher reps on isolation work.

Uh, what? What makes you think your body is NOT recovered from squats in a week? What do you say to those millions of people who do squats 3x a week? Those professional powerlifters and o-lifters? What you're saying has little biological basis and I'd like to see some sort of research for your claims. You cannot do the same weighted exercise on back-to-back days obviously, but you underestimate the healing capabilities of the body when it comes to hypertrophy and muscle repair.

Name one professional powerlifter that squats 3 times a week. To the millions of regular Joe's that squat 3 times a week I say I'm bigger, stronger and better (physically) than you (and can prove it) - why don't you try it my way.
I KNOW my body doesn't recover from squats in one week - i.e. strength goes down, instead of up. What evidence do you have that you're completely recovered in one week? Last I read you keep skipping squats 'cause your back hurts - and your going to question my training strategy?
I'm sure you're good at something. Knowledge of powerlifting and bodybuilding isn't it.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: Eric62

Name one professional powerlifter that squats 3 times a week. To the millions of regular Joe's that squat 3 times a week I say I'm bigger, stronger and better (physically) than you (and can prove it) - why don't you try it my way.
I KNOW my body doesn't recover from squats in one week - i.e. strength goes down, instead of up. What evidence do you have that you're completely recovered in one week? Last I read you keep skipping squats 'cause your back hurts - and your going to question my training strategy?
I'm sure you're good at something. Knowledge of powerlifting and bodybuilding isn't it.

Whoa there tiger, maybe you want to hold on to your horses.

First of all, squatting 3x per week is a great way to build strength. That's an undisputed fact in the lifting world. It is why most beginner and intermediate programs are built around squatting 3x per week. Programs like SS and 5x5 do a great job of finding the right balance of rest and work to build mass and strength.

If you are squatting a huge amount of weight, you are in a completely different category than most people and you obviously can't do that 3x a week without risking serious injury. Nobody is disputing that, either. In fact, if you read any books about programming, all of them suggest moving away from squatting heavy three times a week.

In this case, the OP is asking a question about a routine and specifically mentions Starting Strength. Hence, it's pretty easy to see why everyone assumed (and I think correctly) that he isn't squatting something extremely heavy. That means he definitely fits into the beginner / intermediate level of lifter, which means that squatting 3x per week is probably a good thing, not a bad thing.

If you aren't squatting super-heavy, you're just missing out on opportunities to get work in if you are squatting once a week or less.

 

[Eric62]

The OP is asking about a 3 day split routine. My original response was - well you can read it yourself.
The OP's routine is IMO AND experience superior to any 5x5, or squat 3 times a week routine. I merely pointed out the fact that any routine based upon a 7 day week has no natural bases. It's a completely arbitrary measure of time.
I then outlined a routine that has been successful for myself and more importantly, my training partner - who increased his deadlift from 300 (in the Gym) to 551 in competition (drug tested WABDL) in 1 1/2 years of training.
You don't want to try my routine - cool. Just don't criticize it when you've never tried it, AND the routine you're presently using is failing for you i.e. SociallyChallenged!
I don't claim my routine is the best for everyone. Personality, and genetic traits are big factors. I have a high tolerance for pain, and a fragile central nervous system. I've tried the Westside Barbell training system (high volume) maybe a dozen times - I over train and get sick every time. Despite my limitations I've built roughly 130lbs of muscle in 19 1/2 years.
http://www.myspace.com/powerbuilder333 Me at 303 lbs and 46 years of age. Results speak louder than theories...

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: Eric62

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: Eric62
I like your routine for the most part - except for one area that almost the entire world overlooks:
You base your routine on the 7 day week - correct?
The week is a arbitrarily created measure of time not based on any natural events, such as; The day is based on the rotation of the Earth on it's axis, the month is based upon the moons rotation around the Earth, and the year is based on the Earths rotation around the Sun. The week is completely baseless.
So why would you assume your body will be completely recovered and ready for another squat workout (for example) in one week? It may, or it may not. Most likely not.
Recovery has always been my weakest link. My ability to enter the pain zone and train my deepest fibers is my strong suit. To balance the two, I need 9 to 10 days off between training deadlifts.
My basic routine - as an example, not a recommendation:
Day 1: Legs (centered around the squat) and Abs.
Day 2: Chest (centered around the bench) and Arms.
Day 3: Back (centered around the deadlift, followed by Lats) and Abs.
Day 4: Shoulders (centered around the overhead BB press), Arms, and Rotator Cuffs.
I do three of those work outs per week, picking up were I left off the following week.
Week 1: 1,2,3.
Week 2: 4,1,2.
Week 3: 3,4,1.
Week 4: 2,3,4. Ect...
Cardio I do for 30 minutes after weights - but only when not peaking for a powerlifting meet - then I don't do any cardio for at least a month.
I really agree with your low reps on compound movements, and higher reps on isolation work.

Uh, what? What makes you think your body is NOT recovered from squats in a week? What do you say to those millions of people who do squats 3x a week? Those professional powerlifters and o-lifters? What you're saying has little biological basis and I'd like to see some sort of research for your claims. You cannot do the same weighted exercise on back-to-back days obviously, but you underestimate the healing capabilities of the body when it comes to hypertrophy and muscle repair.

Name one professional powerlifter that squats 3 times a week. To the millions of regular Joe's that squat 3 times a week I say I'm bigger, stronger and better (physically) than you (and can prove it) - why don't you try it my way.
I KNOW my body doesn't recover from squats in one week - i.e. strength goes down, instead of up. What evidence do you have that you're completely recovered in one week? Last I read you keep skipping squats 'cause your back hurts - and your going to question my training strategy?
I'm sure you're good at something. Knowledge of powerlifting and bodybuilding isn't it.

You may be bigger or stronger, but your genetics don't come into place on this. I'm a small guy, I have been battling injuries caused by genetic weaknesses (shoulder impingement, bad hip flexors) and have been continually perfecting my form. I was squatting 300 pounds at 150 pounds BW, if you really wanna go there, in 10 weeks of training.

I was rather asking for you to refer to pro powerlifters who didn't get to where they are by training squats more than onec a week. You THINK your body doesn't recover from squats in one week because you haven't trained them. First week into a program with squats 3x a week is hard. Your body is still sore the next time you have to lift. After the first week, things even out, your body adapts, and you can squat 3x a week without any type of strength decrease. I used to squat once a week and I never felt like I could do it 3x a week. I do it 3x a week now with no problem because of the body's ability to adapt to new situations.

Also, as I explained, I skipped squats because I didn't want to aggravate an injury that may have been caused by one potentially bad training session. You're bringing up issues that have to do with me personally, but have no real bearing on this argument. That's called ad hominem, friend. Look it up when you want to make a real argument.

How about you take some classes on how things work at the cellular level and then come back and we'll talk. If you're gonna look things up on me, you should have at least realized that my major is EXERCISE BIOLOGY.

 

[presidentender]

Originally posted by: Deeko
I am going to publicly refrain from commenting on this topic.

You're actually one of the people I wanted a response from, Deeko.

 

[Eric62]

Yes SociallyChallenged, you've mentioned your studies before. Yawn. You really ought to be better at lifting weights given it's your expertise.
I have AA in administrative criminal justice - but I don't pretend to be a cop.
There's no one right way to train, but you're arrogant enough to think there is, with no proof to offer? You fail in your own training routine, yet you recommend it to others? You can't squat, or deadlift and blame your parents for it?
Little (short) people have huge advantages in powerlifting - less distance to lift the weight, and in bodybuilding - less bone structure to fill out. You can be successful at weight training - it's your no-it-all attitude that's holding you back.
Yes I've squatted 3x a week, why would you think I hadn't? Like most routines it worked - for awhile. then muscle gains stalled and strength diminished.
Have you found a pro powerlifter that squats 3x a week (your claim) yet? I didn't think so.
Westsiders will squat (not necessarily BB squat) twice a week. One max effort day as part of a 3 week circa max routine, and one speed day. Westside has produced the most world class powerlifters of any gym. So yes, some people CAN accomplish incredible feats of strength by squatting more than once every 9 or 10 days. I'm not one of them, and neither are most people.
If my routine failed me as badly as yours does you, I'd be open minded enough to try something new. But hey - that's just me...
BTW I'd love to see you squatting double body weight. I respect all who can walk the walk, and none who merely talk the talk.
I'm not here to argue with you or anybody else. I offered my opinion based on personal experience. Take it, or leave it.

 

[KoolDrew]

There's no one right way to train

I think this sums up everything. Arguing over which type of routine is optimal is just plain retarded. Everybody's body is different, and obviously as you get stronger squatting heavy 3x a week is definitely not going to happen, not even close.

SS is a great beginners program, and I often recommend something similar to beginners because they get plenty of practice in the compound lifts. However, it gets kind of ridiculous when everybody seems to think that it's the most optimal way to train regardless of anything and you must squat 3x a week to see optimal results, even people like Eric who are obviously far from a beginner, where such a routine may be beneficial. It's not the only way to train and it definitely wouldn't be good for anybody past the newbie phase.

Just like anything else in lifting - it depends. There's never one way to do things. It depends on the circumstances and obviously if the routine is working for him, it is optimal for him. It doesn't matter what may be optimal for everybody else on this forum, which is what a lot of people need to realize. Not everything is as black and white as everybody makes it out to be. This doesn't just go for this topic either. I see the same type of mentality with other topics as well. HIIT being superior to SS cardio, free weights being superior to machines, etc. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages and a lot of things often thought of as wrong (often mistakenly) can be very beneficial if implemented correctly. The key is to be open minded, understand the advantages and disadvantages, and introduce things and see how you respond to them.

Anyway, Eric... I definitely appreciate you posting even if nobody else does.

 

[brikis98]

A few comments for Eric62:

1. As far as I can tell, you are (a) a competitive powerlifter, (b) weigh over 300lbs, (c) have probably been weightlifting for a long time and (d) are putting up massive amounts of weight. The routine you are proposing is probably best suited - and obviously has worked well - for an individual like you. However, the vast majority of people on this forum do NOT fit into any of those 4 categories above. Most are beginners who still lift very light. I think crt1530 is one of the few exceptions as he recently deadlifted 616lbs at a BW of 209 (I haven't looked into his exact routine, but he definitely seems to squat much more than once per 10 days). The point here is that your routine is probably not appropriate for the vast majority of people on this forum, including the OP.

2. Your comments towards SociallyChallenged - namely, insulting him because of an injury - are completely inappropriate. It should go without saying that injuries are a very common part of any sport or training and will happen even with a "perfect" routine, and that's not counting pre-existing genetic factors. I'm sure you've been injured plenty of times yourself, so using that as some sort of counter point is quite dumb and not at all relevant to the argument.

3. Moreover, claiming a routine someone recommends is bad because that person is not putting up insane amounts of weight is just stupid. If SociallyChallenged had made up the routine all by himself, then yes, you'd expect him to have "walked the walk" before recommending it. But routines involving squatting 3 times per week were developed by those who could "walk the walk", including Bill Starr, Glenn Pendlay, and Mark Rippetoe. There are versions of it for advanced lifters, but that's not the target audience here. The target audience on this forum is the beginner or intermediate who is just trying to get into pretty good shape and not competitive powerlifters with years of experience. For the relative newbies, squatting 3 times per week HAS been shown, over and over again, to be incredibly effective.

4. The recovery time for your (a) muscles and (b) central nervous system is a pretty complicated topic. The exact answer will depend on genetics, training experience, weight being lifted, routine, etc. However, in general, the more weight you lift, the more recovery time your body (especially the CNS) needs. At your level, this may be a week or more. For the beginner, it is likely going to be much much less. According to coaches that have trained countless athletes, it takes no more than 48 hours or so. Since squatting is so effective for building strength, these coaches use it as often as possible (which works out to about 3 times per week) for as long as possible (which is as long as it takes for the trainee to become an advanced lifter).

 

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

There's a bunch of ways to train. There's only one right way. Balls to the wall :Þ. Seriously though, there's so many different ways to train. Why limit yourself with only one program. There's HIT, 10x10, 5x5, 10x3, EDT, GVT, etc. Don't be so narrow minded.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: M0oG0oGaiPan
There's a bunch of ways to train. There's only one right way. Balls to the wall :Þ. Seriously though, there's so many different ways to train. Why limit yourself with only one program. There's HIT, 10x10, 5x5, 10x3, EDT, GVT, etc. Don't be so narrow minded.

This is one thing I'll agree with. As long as you put forth some real effort and dedication pretty much any regimen you choose is going to net you impressive results. Eat well, Sleep well, don't leave any muscle group out, be careful when trying new things. Most of all, lift hard and don't stop. I don't think I've EVER used any specific workout program I've read or heard about. I always mix and match as I please, sort of changing things as I feel I need to. What that means is that my workouts are probably not all that optimal, but I still get results I'm satisfied with because whatever I'm doing I do it as hard as can be done safely and with proper form.

 

[presidentender]

Originally posted by: M0oG0oGaiPan
There's a bunch of ways to train. There's only one right way. Balls to the wall :Þ.

Depends on your definition of balls to the walls. If you aren't giving yourself enough recovery time, you will get overtrained, and that sucks. If you aren't sleeping right or eating right, working harder in the gym isn't doing you any favors.

Note: OP's not a "this is the only program." I'm not even on it right now. It's because I kept getting crap for writing the words "bodybuilding routine," which immediately conjured images in everyone's mind of half benches and six types of curls. Joe Wieder's book I keep linking to (figure I should stop that) mentions a bunch more, and they're all very different.

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: presidentender

Originally posted by: Deeko
I am going to publicly refrain from commenting on this topic.

You're actually one of the people I wanted a response from, Deeko.

YGPM

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: Eric62
Yes SociallyChallenged, you've mentioned your studies before. Yawn. You really ought to be better at lifting weights given it's your expertise.
I have AA in administrative criminal justice - but I don't pretend to be a cop.
There's no one right way to train, but you're arrogant enough to think there is, with no proof to offer? You fail in your own training routine, yet you recommend it to others? You can't squat, or deadlift and blame your parents for it?
Little (short) people have huge advantages in powerlifting - less distance to lift the weight, and in bodybuilding - less bone structure to fill out. You can be successful at weight training - it's your no-it-all attitude that's holding you back.
Yes I've squatted 3x a week, why would you think I hadn't? Like most routines it worked - for awhile. then muscle gains stalled and strength diminished.
Have you found a pro powerlifter that squats 3x a week (your claim) yet? I didn't think so.
Westsiders will squat (not necessarily BB squat) twice a week. One max effort day as part of a 3 week circa max routine, and one speed day. Westside has produced the most world class powerlifters of any gym. So yes, some people CAN accomplish incredible feats of strength by squatting more than once every 9 or 10 days. I'm not one of them, and neither are most people.
If my routine failed me as badly as yours does you, I'd be open minded enough to try something new. But hey - that's just me...
BTW I'd love to see you squatting double body weight. I respect all who can walk the walk, and none who merely talk the talk.
I'm not here to argue with you or anybody else. I offered my opinion based on personal experience. Take it, or leave it.

Well, what I was saying before this became a bitching match was that there are multiple ways to train. You said squat once a week. I said you can squat up to 3x. Neither of us is right or wrong. 3x can be better for a beginner, but I do understand that as weight increases that volume must be cut.

Have I failed at my routine? I don't believe I have failed at all in any respect. I hardly view a lapse in form while striving for greater depth as a failure. I view it as a dynamic situation where something I tried didn't work very well. I'm sure you can understand that in your experience.

I'm unsure if I said it, but I did not mean that powerlifters DO squat 3x a week. I highly doubt it. I meant moreso that there are many that train squats more than once a week. I can understand what you mean though and I will respect that frequent squatting doesn't work for you. What I was trying to do was let the people reading this thread know that there are other options (playing devil's advocate).

Yeah, last year before the injuries popped up from the Max-OT program, I was squatting 300, deadlifting 340, pressing 140, and benching 215. I cannot do those now since I'm striving for a more maintainable strength (aka not wrecking my joints) and since quite frankly I don't have the time to train 5 days a week.

I respect your statements and apologize that the whole discussion got on the wrong track. I wanted to discuss potential programs for different people and it became a pissing match somehow. No worries. I wanted to let people know, just like you do, that different things work for different people. I'm a 3x a week squatter atm. You're not. That's just how things work when you're at different levels and built differently.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: brikis98
A few comments for Eric62:

1. As far as I can tell, you are (a) a competitive powerlifter, (b) weigh over 300lbs, (c) have probably been weightlifting for a long time and (d) are putting up massive amounts of weight. The routine you are proposing is probably best suited - and obviously has worked well - for an individual like you. However, the vast majority of people on this forum do NOT fit into any of those 4 categories above. Most are beginners who still lift very light. I think crt1530 is one of the few exceptions as he recently deadlifted 616lbs at a BW of 209 (I haven't looked into his exact routine, but he definitely seems to squat much more than once per 10 days). The point here is that your routine is probably not appropriate for the vast majority of people on this forum, including the OP.

2. Your comments towards SociallyChallenged - namely, insulting him because of an injury - are completely inappropriate. It should go without saying that injuries are a very common part of any sport or training and will happen even with a "perfect" routine, and that's not counting pre-existing genetic factors. I'm sure you've been injured plenty of times yourself, so using that as some sort of counter point is quite dumb and not at all relevant to the argument.

3. Moreover, claiming a routine someone recommends is bad because that person is not putting up insane amounts of weight is just stupid. If SociallyChallenged had made up the routine all by himself, then yes, you'd expect him to have "walked the walk" before recommending it. But routines involving squatting 3 times per week were developed by those who could "walk the walk", including Bill Starr, Glenn Pendlay, and Mark Rippetoe. There are versions of it for advanced lifters, but that's not the target audience here. The target audience on this forum is the beginner or intermediate who is just trying to get into pretty good shape and not competitive powerlifters with years of experience. For the relative newbies, squatting 3 times per week HAS been shown, over and over again, to be incredibly effective.

4. The recovery time for your (a) muscles and (b) central nervous system is a pretty complicated topic. The exact answer will depend on genetics, training experience, weight being lifted, routine, etc. However, in general, the more weight you lift, the more recovery time your body (especially the CNS) needs. At your level, this may be a week or more. For the beginner, it is likely going to be much much less. According to coaches that have trained countless athletes, it takes no more than 48 hours or so. Since squatting is so effective for building strength, these coaches use it as often as possible (which works out to about 3 times per week) for as long as possible (which is as long as it takes for the trainee to become an advanced lifter).

I was about to post something .. but brikis98 said it perfectly.

 

[Eric62]

Socially Challenged: I accept and appreciate your apology, and hope you will accept mine in return. I felt that you were attacking my credibility for a second time. Muscle building isn't just a hobby to me, it's a way of life.

Reply to brikis98:
1) I joined AnandTech Forums thinking none of you lifted weights, and everybody knew more about computers. I've enjoyed the learning experience.
My basic routine and training strategy will work for anybody. At least for awhile. Then it would need to be tailored towards your individual goals, recovery ability, personality, ect. I think that can also be said for most other routines.
I'll repeat (just one more time - honest) that any routine structured around the 7 day week is flawed, as it's a man created measure of time with no natural basis. All routines based on the 7 day week are used for convenience - not for optimal results. 'Nuff said.
2) You are 100% correct. I apologize for insulting anyone. Yes I have suffered through several grievous injuries. I'm addicted to my lifestyle enough to train through (or around) everyone of them except my 2nd hernia - when I took 3 months off. I was wrong to ridicule, and I'm sorry.
As a side note; My routine gives your bodyparts more time to heal. Do you really want to squat 3x a week with arthritic knees? I don't, so I try to get the biggest bang out of my leg training with the least amount of inflammation - while still keeping an eye on my competitive goals.
3) I first read about the 5x5 two decades ago in a article written by Bill Starr in MMI magazine. Like fashion styles, it keeps coming back. Obviously it works for many, otherwise it would have been discarded long ago. Not aware of the people you mentioned being world class powerlifters/bodybuilders, or having trained any? Like you said that's not the target audience here.
I'm not against any routine that produces results. I am against every routine that produces overuse injuries and illnesses (weakened immune system from overtraining). If that doesn't apply to you - fantastic!
4) Coaches (and personal trainers) are for people who can't (OR don't want to) learn for themselves, and think for themselves. Nothing wrong with that. Just doesn't suit my personality. I won't comment on football coaches who have their players doing half squats...

Team sports always annoyed me, probably because there's no "I" in "team", so I'm out of here - lol.