If minorities countered against previous racism, I can assure you that we would only be shopping in our own respective stores for a very very long time creating even further racial division.
If minorities countered against previous racism, I can assure you that we would only be shopping in our own respective stores for a very very long time creating even further racial division.
Again, "racism" and "creates racial division" are not the same thing.
There have been periods where things like Jazz or Rap have been concentrated among blacks, and thereby 'increased racial divisions' - but that doesn't mean that they were racist, created for that purpose, against whites. Jazz is the better example, so that I don't have to complicate the example by addressing that incidentally, som Rap music *is* racist for other rwasons, the lyrics.
I understand there's a correlation between 'racist' and 'creating racial division', since so much racism is reflected by choices to implement segregation - but as I've said, the key thing is the motive. Segregation is almost always racist in its motive. In this case, there *might* be a motive that's not racist.
If I find African languages beatuful and start classes on them, and only blacks are interested and take the classes, might that not 'increase division' yet not be racist?
Craig, you can come up with whatever definitions you'd like to suit your argument, but according to merriam-webster, this is one of the two definitions: racial prejudice or discrimination.
Discrimination: 3 a: the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b: prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment
Clearly, purchasing from certain stores based specifically on the race of the owner of the store is falls under the definition of "discrimination". In turn, the act of discrimination based on race is by definition racist.
Discrimination: 3 a: the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b: prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment
Clearly, purchasing from certain stores based specifically on the race of the owner of the store is falls under the definition of "discrimination". In turn, the act of discrimination based on race is by definition racist.
Nonsense, the definition of discrimination is:
3. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.
Synonyms:
3. discernment, taste, acumen, perception.
Racism is bad but discrimination is good. Don't play games with word. English is my native language.
You're obnoxious to make the accusation I'm 'coming up with a definition to suit my argument'.
I understand the various definitions of racism technically, and it's my opinion that the definition relevant to this threat topic is only one of them, the one related to bigotry.
My argument follows from the definition that it's my opinion is relevant - I'm not modifying any definitions for it.
Racism has at least the following definitions I'll paraphrase rather than cut and paste (and the UN has its own definition related to racism):
- Institutional racism is when policies are set up to deny one or more groups equal benefits (political economic, freedom, etc. - that's the UN definition)
- A belief in the biological superiority of one ore more races over one or more others
- Distinguishing based on race
- Bigotry/hate towards one or more races
I explaned why I"m saying that their behavior may not be "racist" in the sense of the word I think it relevant - the bigotry/hate one, not some neutral technical use.
I stand by my point, and we've at least each stated our positions.
nobodyknows
Diamond Member
- Sep 28, 2008
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They are boycotting white owned stores. I fail to see why it matters if it's based on "good" intentions or not? IMO it teaches people the wrong lesson.
I assume they are also boycotting stores that may be managed/ran by black people in favor of black owned stores. What exactly is that saying?
Your opinion on whether the lesson it teaches is right or wrong doesn't make it racism.
You might say reparations for Japenese internees 'sent the wrong message', but as I explained above, that doesn't make it racist.
You seem to be confusing 'race-related acts you don't like' and 'racist'.
nobodyknows
Diamond Member
- Sep 28, 2008
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I didn't address the Japanese internment because it's not relevant to this situation. Answer the bolded question please. I'm interested in what you have to say about that.
I see this a lot among immigrants. I associate it with people being in their comfort zone when around a social setting that they can relate with. Some, perhaps, are drawn in to social groups, or in this case business, that can function using similar culture features whether it is language, atittude, or customs.
I believe there are different levels of racism. I vaguely remember it being discussed in an Intercultural Communications class I took long ago. But the levels basically boil down to being biased, prejudice, discriminatory, racist, and ultimately xenophobic to the best of my recollection. The lines aren't as clear as some would have you believe. With that said, I wouldn't label them as being racist, but attribute them to being prejudice.
They seem to have good intensions, but in the grand scheme of things, their approach is neither effective or, for that matter, useful in my opinion. If the business is to survive, it would need more than the help of a faction. That is not to say it wouldn't hurt though.
I believe there are different levels of racism. I vaguely remember it being discussed in an Intercultural Communications class I took long ago. But the levels basically boil down to being biased, prejudice, discriminatory, racist, and ultimately xenophobic to the best of my recollection. The lines aren't as clear as some would have you believe. With that said, I wouldn't label them as being racist, but attribute them to being prejudice.
They seem to have good intensions, but in the grand scheme of things, their approach is neither effective or, for that matter, useful in my opinion. If the business is to survive, it would need more than the help of a faction. That is not to say it wouldn't hurt though.
Same reason we find ourselves in the Filipino grocery frequently.
Exactly. I'm very price driven, and if a merchant offers me the best price, I don't care if he/she is bright blue with neon pink stripes. Frankly, out in the suburban wilds, most 'merchants' are just part of national chains, so the "owner" is some faceless corporation and skin-color is irrelevant. Even if the store is a franchise owned by an actual person, I almost never know the skin color of the owner when I go in, and if I actually meet the owner on some rare occasion, I just don't care about ethnicity.
I haven't said anything about my opinion of whether what they're doing is a good idea or not, much less split hairs about managed versus owned.
My same comments would apply regardless of whther they boycott black-managed stores, in terms of whether it's racist - it depends on their intent.
Where they draw the line is simply a detail about how they define the issue and what they're trying to accomplish.
It's a little like asking whether it's ok for someone trying to boycott Chinese-made goods whether it's ok to buy USA-made goods at Wal-Mart, since that supports Wal-Mart and they are respondible for a lot of the Chinese goods imported. They could answer that either way depending on their opinion.
If their focus is to support black ownership, they might prefer to pass up black-managed stores not owned by blacks, even though part of the loss is felt by the black manager.
retrospooty
Platinum Member
- Apr 3, 2002
- 2,031
- 74
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I dont know... I really dont know, but to be honest. I am tired of the question already.
When will we just get over it.
nobodyknows
Diamond Member
- Sep 28, 2008
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We're obviously not communicating - the points I made previously are clearly flying right past you, on why race-based behavior isn't always racist behavior.
As for the if, you are the one who asked to postulate possibilities that they either are shopping at black owned, or are also including black managed.
That leaves open the possibility of different motibes and goals - and thus 'if' one of those possible goals is the case. If you don't like that, don't set it up and ask for comment on it.
mugs
Lifer
- Apr 29, 2003
- 48,920
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:laugh: Around here (central NJ) just about every franchise business is owned by Asians. Non-franchise businesses have more variety (and more white owners), but they rarely have black owners.
I don't have a problem with a black person preferring to shop at stores that are owned by black people. If they're doing it because they don't like white people, that's clearly racist.
Black people are still feeling the long-term effects of institutional racism, and in the short term an artificial boost is useful for breaking the cycle of poverty that would otherwise continue.
How the hell do you know who the owner of a business is and what race they are? With the possible exception of shops actually run on a day-to-day basis by said owner so you can SEE who they are and what race they are, how do you know?
Frankly I don't see the point of their little exercise - shop where you're comfortable, where the prices and merchandise are to your liking. Who cares if the owners are black or white?
Frankly I don't see the point of their little exercise - shop where you're comfortable, where the prices and merchandise are to your liking. Who cares if the owners are black or white?
nobodyknows
Diamond Member
- Sep 28, 2008
- 5,474
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I already defined why it was racism for you. You try to excuse it because it well intentioned racism. That may be, but it's still racism.
Aikouka
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2001
- 30,383
- 912
- 126
It is considered racism based on the definition, but we don't necessarily care about this form because it doesn't have any visible effects. If there are enough people performing it, it can possibly cause the discriminated business owner(s) to go out of business from the lack of sales regardless of their level of service and goods. Although, one could also argue that the business owner did not do his homework if he chose a local that would end up being a poor spot because of community support and not being able to reach enough people outside of said community to sustain his business.
All in all, I don't really care about this story... I didn't watch the video to get the tone, but there's a good chance it's just another sensationalist piece.
All in all, I don't really care about this story... I didn't watch the video to get the tone, but there's a good chance it's just another sensationalist piece.
AshPhoenix
Member
- Mar 12, 2008
- 187
- 0
- 0
PricklyPete
Lifer
- Sep 17, 2002
- 14,582
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I agree... My wife is Filipino and we shop at some Philippine grocery stores as well as other Asian stores at least 2x per month. Much of the stuff she gets you can't get in 'regular' grocery stores while some things you can but they're cheaper. Sometimes we'll buy the common items that cost a little more just to support the store. The way I see it, supporting the store helps keep it in business and allows her to have somewhere to shop for things she can't find at Publix, Sweetbay, etc.
Edit: In regard to the OP... If these people are shopping at black owned business to support their community/race I don't find it racist. If they are shopping there because they don't like whites, Asians, Indians, etc then that is racist.
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