Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
No where have I insisted it be produced. You're either lying or can't read worth a damn.
Since you bring it up would suggest that the at least consider doing so if it's not a 'call-in' version. Contrary to your assertion this is hurting the GOP - nope. The area I live in is full of swing voters, and they went Obama last election. However, whether rational or not, these pople have become mightily concerned about this and failure to produce it may cause lost votes next time around. There is no reason to risk that when the document can easily be produced.
BTW: I have noted your profile indicates your'e from IL.
Fern
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
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I did actually. Did you read the factcheck link? Further, when the certified "legally sufficient" non-digital with a raised state seal short form birth cert that fact check held in their very hands and took photos of was produced, Corsi and others denounced it as a fake and said FactCheck was in on it since it was founded by the Annenberg foundation who Obama had a relationship with. Why exactly would the nutters give any credence to the long form birth certificate were it produced? Answer: they would not.
Right, so the nutters must believe the HI official is lying about it too.
So the info presented, as you've admitted, is legally sufficient enough for the FBI, NSA, and CIA to brief him with our most highly classified state secrets, intelligent briefings and nuclear launch codes, but apparently the redneck nutters know better than the intelligence community. This is called cognitive dissonance. Obama's fooled the CIA but he can't pull one over on old Joe the Plumber, no sireebob!
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
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There is no non-digital anybody but the HA state official has seen, there certainly isn't on eposted on factcheck. And no you haven't read what I've posted.
I have never said the birthers have a claim about the produced document being fraud/forged etc. I've said iyt's not actual BC and HA doesn't deny that, they simply aren't in the habit of running to the records dept, yanking the real one and running it through the photocopier. They simply print out the digital certification you see on factcheck.
Nope, that's not what I said, and is in fact is completely the opposite (RCFTL). What i said above is it is an offical certificate that some form of BC exists.
No one is saying that he HA official is lying - strawman FTL. (Much like the claims that someone believes a conspiracy existed 50 years to plant false birth announcements in the paper)
If the courts say it's legally sufficient, then it is.
Are you claiming that the CIA, FBI etc have verified Obama's qualifications? If so, link it up. I'm sure the birthers would like to see it.
From what I've seen that is not their domian and they have no business checking it. It should be a scandel if they did (again, the courts say the certification is sufficient, CIA 's got nothing to do with it). So, claims of cognitive dissonance are misplaced.
Let me ask you - do you know what an actual BC looks like, and do you agree that the one produced so far is not one (although it is legally sufficient)?
Fern
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
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From my link, here's the photos of the fully certified (you agreed "legally sufficient") non-digitalwith a raised state seal short form birth certificate:
http://www.factcheck.org/Uploa...irth_certificate_3.jpg
http://www.factcheck.org/Uploa...irth_certificate_1.jpg
This is a document called a short form birth certificate, it was printed and stamped and certified by the proper HI authorities and resided at Obama's HQ at the time Factcheck looked at it. This form is legally sufficient to satisfy every government authority in the United States. But it's not good enough for the truthers.
No, what you said was that if Obama produced the long form hospital birth certificate then it would "put a stop to all this" and all the truthers would go away. The fact that they called the fully certified and legally sufficient document produced above a fake/fraud/forgery ought to tell you something fern. These people don't care about truth and will never be satisfied. They KNOW he was born in Kenya and nothing you say, do or show them can convince them otherwise.
Yes, that's why I keep using the term short-form birth cert as factcheck did. HI doesn't produce the long form hospital one for some reason, but the state officials have certified that they have it on record. All of which is irrelevent since what has been produced thus far is legally sufficient and has still been called a fake/fraud/phoney. The same claims would be repeated for any document produced.
People will believe what they want, hell, some people still think scientists planted dinosaur bones to contradict the bible. These people don't believe in carbon dating, geology, astrology, radiation half lives, or anything else. They are 100% certain and you don't bother reasoning with such people.
If you believe producing the long form birth cert would quell this group, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
- 106
Umm, actually I didn't make that claim either.
One thing you ought to get straigt is that lumping all those in doubt, and who want to see the real BC into the same catergory is nothing but rank generalization and therefore bogus.
At the begining I posted because it's easy to mis-characterize those who want confirmation as the nuts believing the certification is forged, that the HA state officials are lying, and that there was a conspiracy 50 years to get an announcment in the newspaper. Nope, I was attempting to explain that's not what's it's about for most. really, the only reason to mis-characterize them is to be able to easily more dismiss them.
You see their concerns lie elsewhere. They know that there are (IIRC) 4 kinds of BC's issued by HA (They may still have 4, they get their laws into better shape in the 1970's and that was a result of SS# application changes). It's a unique state. They're aware that HA has (maybe stiil will) issued a BC for a foreign born child upon the parent signing an affidavit stating that they have been a resident of HA previously. They are aware of the 'call-in' BC's.
They also know that regardless of what type of BC you were intially issued, the (PC generated) certificate (short) forms all look the same. No way to tell what the original BC was.
What they do want is to know what kind of original BC Obama has. I suspect because they're not getting it they're suspicious. For the nuts, and I suspect those are few, perhaps nothing will change their minds. Regardless the rest, I suspect, have difficulty in understanding why if Obama has a 'regular' BC he won't show it.
I don't believe this will go away. The MSM has been mis-characterizing this (like this forum) for some time now (if not being downright inaccurate). Still hasn't stopped it. H3ll, hasn't even slowed it down. In my line of work I meet with a lot of otherwise perfectly normal upper middle-class types. Some are retired execs from the NE (and a lot from the Mid West) and others are business owners; I'm amazed how many mention this issue.
IDK, maybe mis-characterizing and ridiculing them will work, but then again maybe not. My guess, though, is that we'll see this again next Presidential election and they'll likely be something more fact-based (like info on HA habits wrt BC's) and less kooky.
As I wrote above, we currently have no system verifying a candidate's qualifications and there is proposed legislation to correct that. Quite likely the Dems will be able to quash it, but if not look for Obama to possibly have to produce the original (long form) BC next election. And if it's not a regular one look for more trouble.
EDIT: BTW, I've seen sites with Hawaiian law, copies of various BC's etc. They claim the way to tell (contrary to what I said above) a 'call-in' or late filed BC is by comparing the birth date with the registration date. If they are same it is likely a 'regular' BC. If the registration date is later it is a call-in/late filed BC. On the copies of his certification the registration date is (IIRC) 4 days after his given birth date. IDK if their info is correct or not.
Fern
- Nov 20, 1999
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This is the reason why Obama won't show his BC:
Note: these guys are already CRAZY... to think that there are wingnuts crazier than even them (crazy enough to call them out on it) is pretty hilarious.
This is the same reason obama wants to link Rush Limbaugh as the de facto head of the republican party.
Note: these guys are already CRAZY... to think that there are wingnuts crazier than even them (crazy enough to call them out on it) is pretty hilarious.
This is the same reason obama wants to link Rush Limbaugh as the de facto head of the republican party.
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
- 20
- 81
You are drawing distinctions between "nutters" and "concerned common folk". There's no such thing. Absolutely anyone who looks at what has been produced thus far and is unsatisfied or feels there's a conspiracy afoot or that the entire country has been hoodwinked is a nutter.
thraashman
Lifer
- Apr 10, 2000
- 11,112
- 1,587
- 126
I was just about to say this. Quite frankly I think this mistake alone proves he doesn't know what he's talking about. I have a serious problem believing a person can know much of anything about a state when he not once, not twice, but at least 20 times failed to even get the abbreviation of the state right.
Also, many states will not release an actual birth certificate, but only certified copies. I can't even get my birth certificate in my state.
Regarding the first two you list, whether or not you agree with them and their tactics, PETA is concerned with real animals, Greenpeace is concerned with the environment. Both advocate non-violent action.
ELF is a different story because they have a history of resorting to violence beyond simple civil disobedience.
Unlike PETA, Greenpeace and ELF are different from all of them because their focus and objectives are completely detached from reality. The good news about the birthers, so far, is that, unlike ELF, they haven't resorted to violence so, unless that changes, we can afford the luxury of laughing at their ridiculous antics. :laugh:
I figured you would like them.
And besides, democratic town-halls are full of politicians feeding bullshit to the people. Sounds worse than the other way around.
Did I say they aren't?
You asked how they're more or less whacko. Unlike the birthers, PETA isn't concerned about imaginary problems or imaginary animals. OTOH, the birthers reality check bounced and their account is way overdrawn long ago.
Maybe PETA could protest Williams' cruelty to a dumb animal. :laugh:
CallMeJoe
Diamond Member
- Jul 30, 2004
- 6,938
- 5
- 81
Per the Birther report on NBC Nightly, Hawaii state law does not allow release of copies of the original long-form birth certificate. If Mr. Obama did not retain his parents' copy of the document, he likely does not have one. He may be entirely unable to comply with the Birthers' demands, even if he wished to do so.
NPR segment on "birthers"
They actually brought a neuroscience professor to talk about why people persist in believing conspiracies, despite overwhelming controverting evidence.
I liked this listener comment:
To the birthers who have the time to waste on their protests, I say get a fucking job.
They actually brought a neuroscience professor to talk about why people persist in believing conspiracies, despite overwhelming controverting evidence.
I liked this listener comment:
Most people who believe in conspiracy theories do so because its easier to believe you are the hapless victim of intergalactic reptilian interlopers than to take responsility for your own failure of an existence.
The woman screaming and shouting in this report is obviously a moonshine swigging hill person.
Someone mentioned race earlier. Its not just downtrodden whites that are prone to these scapegoat beliefs. Ironically enough, downtrodden black people hold many of the identical beliefs. Especially about the government. I guess what makes those beliefs for frightening when manifested in whites, is that there are more of them
To the birthers who have the time to waste on their protests, I say get a fucking job.
What a fool believes he sees,
No wise man has the power to reason away. :music:
~ Michael McDonald/Kenny Loggins
~ Doobie Brothers
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