Bioware dev talks about misogyny, racism and homophobia in games

[desura]

It's not so much that stereotypes need to be challenged in games as much as developers seem to think that they need what amounts to soft porn in their games.

Case in point: Cortana in Halo CE:

And Cortana in Halo 4:

It seems to me that developers are so anxious about making sales (recall Bioshock Infinite's cover controvery?) that they feel that they have to insert jiggling boobs whenever they can.

 

[cmdrdredd]

It seems to me that developers are so anxious about making sales (recall Bioshock Infinite's cover controvery?) that they feel that they have to insert jiggling boobs whenever they can.

What controversy with the cover art?

 

[Red Hawk]

And Jack's clothes clearly display that she is a strong independent woman who doesn't need a man! Miranda as well. Every female humanoid in ME has a low cut top or form fitting clothes with large breasts. Perhaps, if they wanted them to be more than sex objects, they shouldn't make them be. The male characters are far more diverse. Joker doesn't even have working legs!

Jack, of all BioWare characters, is not supposed to be attractive (not in ME2 where she was introduced, at least). Her character design fits in with her character. The point of her character is not that she's a "strong independent woman" (Nostalgia Chick reference?). Nothing so shallow. It's that she's a human being who has been hurt a lot in the past, and because of that she pushes people away and behaves recklessly. Her arc in ME2 makes the point that it's unhealthy and self-destructive for her to behave like that.

Btw, Joker's legs do work, he's just pretty fragile overall. If physical characteristics count as "diversity", there's Tali's reliance on her environment suit, Liara's long lifespan, EDI's existence as an AI, Miranda's genetic engineering, etc.

I guess you were too busy jerking it to Miranda to notice Jacob's bulge. All characters in the game wear skintight suits.

Good point. Female and male characters in BioWare games get sexualized. Jacob, Thane, James, Zevran, Fenris. The males in the games tend to be fit and wear tight clothing themselves. BioWare doesn't have a problem with making characters, of either gender, sexy. The point is that should not be all female characters are used for.

 

[thedosbox]

The only thing you don't see in games imo are fat people

This is a good point. The majority of characters should be overweight and unable to run for more than a few meters if we want to see the "core" gamers represented properly.

Well, at least most games get one part right

 

[cmdrdredd]

Dead Rising 3 had a boss character who was a fat lady in a power scooter who was raiding the buffet restaurant and wanted to kill you because she thinks you are going to steal her food. One of her attacks is where she barfs on the floor and you slip on it, leaving you vulnerable to be damaged.

Anyway fat people are represented.

 

[Arsinek]

Question, why would I want to look at a fat ugly woman?

 

[irishScott]

Question, why would I want to look at a fat ugly woman?

This.

To expand:
Question, why should I appreciate my entertainment being interrupted by condescending yet shallow social commentary that tells me nothing I didn't already know?


It's like that gay shuttle pilot in Mass Effect 3. When he started off with "I had a husband..." I just rolled my eyes and facepalmed. His being gay added nothing to the character, nothing to the story; just a preachy "we're taking time out of the entertainment you payed for to show off how politically correct we are!"


Simple fact is a game made up entirely of decent-good looking, straight white people isn't innately "stereotypical" because in many localities that's how things are. Hell I'm sitting in a University food court right now and looking around in an ~20' radius of my table, I see one Indian guy, one black girl, one Asian girl, and about 30 white people, all of whom are decent looking and statistically likely to be straight. ZOMG the universe isn't being politically correct! Grab your torches and pitchforks!

 

[Aikouka]

What controversy with the cover art?

I'm guessing that he's talking about this:

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/12/bioshock-infinite-box-art/

Apparently, the box art was designed to have more appeal among those that exdeath would call "dudebros".

Dead Rising 3 had a boss character who was a fat lady in a power scooter who was raiding the buffet restaurant and wanted to kill you because she thinks you are going to steal her food. One of her attacks is where she barfs on the floor and you slip on it, leaving you vulnerable to be damaged.

Anyway fat people are represented.

There's Ellie from Borderlands 2.

 

[darkewaffle]

It's like that gay shuttle pilot in Mass Effect 3. When he started off with "I had a husband..." I just rolled my eyes and facepalmed. His being gay added nothing to the character, nothing to the story; just a preachy "we're taking time out of the entertainment you payed for to show off how politically correct we are!"

I agree that it's hard to not make it come off as contrived, but in a sense I think that "being gay added nothing to the character" is the right way to go about it. The simple fact that being gay is relatively uncommon means that him saying "I lost my husband" is somewhat surprising/attention grabbing to the collective "us" I think, but ultimately no different than him saying "I lost my wife" imo, which I think is the right way to handle it. It was about loss, not "gay loss".

 

[nageov3t]

honestly, the only time perceived homophobia really annoyed me in a game was SW:TOR.

it literally would have taken almost no effort to make companion romances accessible regardless of which gender the play, but the devs locked it down such that characters could only engage in the romance subplots with companions of opposite gender.

a human can romance an anthropomorphic slug and it's fine as long of they're of different genders, but heaven forbid a human wants to romance another human of the same gender.

player reactions, otoh, are a whole different story... it smacks of bias to decry gay characters as "introducing sex into a video game" or something along those lines when heterosexual sex is already there.

 

[Red Hawk]

It's like that gay shuttle pilot in Mass Effect 3. When he started off with "I had a husband..." I just rolled my eyes and facepalmed. His being gay added nothing to the character, nothing to the story; just a preachy "we're taking time out of the entertainment you payed for to show off how politically correct we are!"

Why should it add to the character any more than being straight adds to a character? True diversity, IMO, is when diverse characters are simply there, not when the narrative makes a point about them being there. Cortez is written as a human being who happens to be gay; that it comes off preachy to you is more of a sign of how unused to that you personally are.

 

[tential]

I haven't read the whole thread so sorry in advance but here is my take.

People are paying to be entertained. Most people don't want to watch an ugly person for 5+ hours at a time when gaming. Look at HDTV for an example. Most females on every show are attractive. The men are too for the most part.

I don't want to spend my time watching a grotesque person for hours at a time and neither do most people.

Oversexualization of women in games is really just a joke. It's a form of entertainment. Did anyone complain about Magic Mike and how women were sexualizing Channing Tatum? Nope. It's entertainment and we want to see attractive people.

As for having a female protagonist, I think it's usually poorly done. First off, your player base is male so most won't be able to sympathize with a female protagonist. Two, most of the scenarios aren't really realistic or even feasible. The Dev talks about Dragons not being real so therefore women can fight dragons. That's not it at all. The point is that a woman could barely pick up a sword yet she's going to kill a dragon?
I'll use watching The Closer, for example. The lead character is female. She has crazy mood swings and has other typical female characteristics. Watching the show drove me crazy and I only finished it because I had already started (bad I know sunk cost don't remind me). I couldn't relate at all.
Tomb Raider was a similar experience. At least with Tomb Raider the game play and general story line were good. But in terms of relating towards the main character? The main character could have been male or female. The game didn't put any parts into it that "Oh ok, I'm a female." The one part of the game where it's "Omg, I'm a female and these guys are going to rape me." was hugely controversial. This is funny in that female vulnerability is all over TV and Movies (Book of Eli in which being a woman in the postapocalypse isn't fun when there are no laws, Spartacus where women are basically property, etc.).

I think including female issues, sexual issues and race issues into games usually go HORRIBLY wrong because mainstream media takes it EXTREMELY out of context. As we saw with tombraider (in which the bad guy clearly looked like he was about to rape you), mainstream media isn't ready for that type of stuff in games, and no publisher is going to take that kind of backlash.

 

[irishScott]

Why should it add to the character any more than being straight adds to a character? True diversity, IMO, is when diverse characters are simply there, not when the narrative makes a point about them being there. Cortez is written as a human being who happens to be gay; that it comes off preachy to you is more of a sign of how unused to that you personally are.

It's true. Statistically gays are an extreme minority, and in my day-to-day life I don't knowingly encounter them in more than a passing fashion. I have no close friends who are gay, and I'm pretty sure no acquaintances either (at least none that are open about it). But that's beside the point.

If it wouldn't make a difference, then why not make him straight? It would be more statistically realistic and relate more easily to a much larger player-base; easing the consumption of whatever they were trying to accomplish with the character. The only reason to make him gay was for social commentary (which isn't much of a stretch, as Mass Effect is generally chocked full of social commentary) and then they failed to substantially commentate. They might as well have put a Rainbow Flag in one of the shops that you could buy and hang in your cabin. Cortez was the "gay one" in the lineup, alongside the "black one", "hispanic one" and "love interest", and note they made him a minor character. He's as "token" as they come.

Contrast Cortez to characters like Mitch and Cameron on Modern Family. Their gayness is actually used to great comedic and personal effect by the writers, and provides more social commentary in 5 minutes of screen-time than Cortez did in several hours of gameplay.

Don't get me wrong it's not like it ruined the game for me (that's what the endings were for) but it just struck me as bandwagon rainbow-flag-waving fluff that only made the character less relatable.

 

[Topweasel]

It's true. Statistically gays are an extreme minority, and in my day-to-day life I don't knowingly encounter them in more than a passing fashion. I have no close friends who are gay, and I'm pretty sure no acquaintances either (at least none that are open about it). But that's beside the point.

If it wouldn't make a difference, then why not make him straight? It would be more statistically realistic and relate more easily to a much larger player-base; easing the consumption of whatever they were trying to accomplish with the character. The only reason to make him gay was for social commentary (which isn't much of a stretch, as Mass Effect is generally chocked full of social commentary) and then they failed to substantially commentate. They might as well have put a Rainbow Flag in one of the shops that you could buy and hang in your cabin. Cortez was the "gay one" in the lineup, alongside the "black one", "hispanic one" and "love interest", and note they made him a minor character. He's as "token" as they come.

Contrast Cortez to characters like Mitch and Cameron on Modern Family. Their gayness is actually used to great comedic and personal effect by the writers, and provides more social commentary in 5 minutes of screen-time than Cortez did in several hours of gameplay.

Don't get me wrong it's not like it ruined the game for me (that's what the endings were for) but it just struck me as bandwagon rainbow-flag-waving fluff that only made the character less relatable.

In Bioware's defense they wanted to expand options for gay players. Cortez wasn't there just for some kind of social commentary. Since including Liara as a love interest for Femshep they had been trying expand relationships for the gay communities for their Role play. Cortez just happened to be the only male character without a pre-established back-story that they could offer people who wanted a Gay Male Shepard. The only other character they had that they could work with (and did offer him up) was Kaiden, but gay or straight, playing Make shep or Femshep, 85% of the people out there had already killed him off.

I guess they could have used Vega, but I think that would have taken a bit out of the character.

Sure as someone that doesn't partake in the lifestyle I groaned for half a second Husband. But is my disinterest in the gay lifestyle really that big of an issue that I can't let my Role playing games include a couple lines for those who might be interested in it for their Role playing. Also to note that both characters talk about it casually, its the players that get worked up over it's usage. I would hope that in 400 years the human race would be accepting enough of it that people can be open like that to their commanding officer.

 

[irishScott]

In Bioware's defense they wanted to expand options for gay players. Cortez wasn't there just for some kind of social commentary. Since including Liara as a love interest for Femshep they had been trying expand relationships for the gay communities for their Role play. Cortez just happened to be the only male character without a pre-established back-story that they could offer people who wanted a Gay Male Shepard. The only other character they had that they could work with (and did offer him up) was Kaiden, but gay or straight, playing Make shep or Femshep, 85% of the people out there had already killed him off.

I guess they could have used Vega, but I think that would have taken a bit out of the character.

Sure as someone that doesn't partake in the lifestyle I groaned for half a second Husband. But is my disinterest in the gay lifestyle really that big of an issue that I can't let my Role playing games include a couple lines for those who might be interested in it for their Role playing. Also to note that both characters talk about it casually, its the players that get worked up over it's usage. I would hope that in 400 years the human race would be accepting enough of it that people can be open like that to their commanding officer.

What's wrong with making Thane go both ways? If providing gay options was their objective they could have done it much better and come off as less shoe-horned. Of course the same could be said about the endings.

And it didn't get me "worked up" for more than a second or two, but going back to my original use of Cortez as an example of annoying commentary, I'm just afraid that more games are going to go that route; and otherwise good story-driven games marred by shitty commentary that the developers threw in to jump on the PC bandwagon. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the never-ending Power Rangers franchise gets a Rainbow Ranger with a Unicorn Zord in a few years.

Just look at modern games depicting any given battle. Historically a lot of famous battles were won and lost exclusively by straight white males. But even mindless shooters like Gears of War and near-non-existant campaigns like Titanfall's inevitably have at least one black guy thrown in.

 

[Topweasel]

What's wrong with making Thane go both ways? If providing gay options was their objective they could have done it much better and come off as less shoe-horned. Of course the same could be said about the endings.

And it didn't get me "worked up" for more than a second or two, but going back to my original use of Cortez as an example of annoying commentary, I'm just afraid that more games are going to go that route; and otherwise good story-driven games marred by shitty commentary that the developers threw in to jump on the PC bandwagon. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the never-ending Power Rangers franchise gets a Rainbow Ranger with a Unicorn Zord in a few years.

Just look at modern games depicting any given battle. Historically a lot of famous battles were won and lost exclusively by straight white males. But even mindless shooters like Gears of War and near-non-existant campaigns like Titanfall's inevitably have at least one black guy thrown in.

Thane wasn't an active character on ME3. He showed up 2 times with almost zero interaction. Generally they want a love interest that is available before the last big mission. So it required an active member of the crew, the two engineer kids were together, so that leaves Garrus (pre-established character), Ghost of Kaiden, the head Engineer, Vega, Joker (pre-established character).

Vega was better served as straight option for Femshep. Kaiden was probably dead. Joker and Garrus where pretty well establish and I liked the approach to using Joker/AI as the real gay social commentary (man loving AI being in 400 years being treated like the populous treat gays now). It really wouldn't matter which of the two (Cortez or Engineer) because what you are saying could be used for both, bit players, forced commentary. That's why I said what I said. It's not commentary. Joker/Edi is the real commentary, the general way he talks about his husband, without any kind of reaction from Shepard (Fem or Male, gay or straight) is commentary on its own, but the words and stories aren't. It's an out of closet gay dude because they don't have to hide in a closet. It's also the one real gay dude they can offer to most people knowing that the other option is as I said already dead for most users.

If it wasn't an RPG. Or you just randomly walked up to a character that you won't see again and he goes on a pro-gay rant or something that would be one thing. Just saying that Cortez is less there as forced attempt to include social commentary. Cortez is there because they wanted available option for their users as part of those users Role play. I don't know how other companies will do it and whether it will be forced. I just don't think Cortez is forced and I don't think he is a blue print for other Studio's. They felt they had developed a fan base that a Cortez character filled a need of theirs. Maybe their orginal moves back during DA and ME1 where attempts at politically correctness (and ahead of their time), but its the gay community that welcomed and enjoyed Bioware's game that drove the creation of Cortez and not the desire to have a token gay character for some PC reason.

 

[Red Hawk]

It's true. Statistically gays are an extreme minority, and in my day-to-day life I don't knowingly encounter them in more than a passing fashion. I have no close friends who are gay, and I'm pretty sure no acquaintances either (at least none that are open about it). But that's beside the point.

If it wouldn't make a difference, then why not make him straight? It would be more statistically realistic and relate more easily to a much larger player-base; easing the consumption of whatever they were trying to accomplish with the character. The only reason to make him gay was for social commentary (which isn't much of a stretch, as Mass Effect is generally chocked full of social commentary) and then they failed to substantially commentate. They might as well have put a Rainbow Flag in one of the shops that you could buy and hang in your cabin. Cortez was the "gay one" in the lineup, alongside the "black one", "hispanic one" and "love interest", and note they made him a minor character. He's as "token" as they come.

Contrast Cortez to characters like Mitch and Cameron on Modern Family. Their gayness is actually used to great comedic and personal effect by the writers, and provides more social commentary in 5 minutes of screen-time than Cortez did in several hours of gameplay.

Don't get me wrong it's not like it ruined the game for me (that's what the endings were for) but it just struck me as bandwagon rainbow-flag-waving fluff that only made the character less relatable.

Why not make him gay to begin with? Why not ignore all minorities everywhere and just fill the cast with white people? That's not really an argument against making him gay. Like Topweasel said, if anything it's less that they were making commentary with Cortez' character (and if you think simply including a gay character is commentary, again, maybe you need that commentary) and more like they included him so that gay players have that option to make their Shepard have a homosexual relationship.

 

[irishScott]

Why not make him gay to begin with? Why not ignore all minorities everywhere and just fill the cast with white people? That's not really an argument against making him gay. Like Topweasel said, if anything it's less that they were making commentary with Cortez' character (and if you think simply including a gay character is commentary, again, maybe you need that commentary) and more like they included him so that gay players have that option to make their Shepard have a homosexual relationship.

If the character being a minority or other race contributes to the plot or characters or universe in some way then by all means. Hell even if just adds visual variety than so be it. But imagine there was an "alien" character, only the "alien" looked, acted, and sounded perfectly human down to the last detail. Then what's the point of making them an alien?

So in an RPG when I find something starkly unusual to the point of immersion breaking; and when that something is directly related to a highly publicized current political issue, and I interpret it as political commentary, that's a complete and utter misjudgement on my part. Gee golly Mr. Red Hawk you've really opened my eyes.

If Bioware was so keen on appealing to minorities why is Kasumi DLC-only? There are far more Asian-Americans than gays, where's the guaranteed Asian option? You can't deny that there's at least a subtext of commentary. Even given your explanation, Bioware specifically chose to support gay people over other larger demographics and minorities. Sure they're not leading the pride parade but they're at least standing on the sidelines waving a miniature rainbow flag.

I think at the very least including a gay character with blatant romantic options is so unusual that people shouldn't be surprised that it's considered commentary. That's been the case in popular media since the first African American in film to Marlyn Monroe and the sexual revolution; and it's not like Bioware has a track record of being particularly down to earth when it comes to its view of its work.

 

[artemicion]

I'm guessing that he's talking about this:

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/12/bioshock-infinite-box-art/

Apparently, the box art was designed to have more appeal among those that exdeath would call "dudebros".

Having read the article, I now find the Bioshock Infinite artwork to be excellent. In my mind, it is Irrational Games trolling Bioshock fans who think that Bioshock games are somehow hugely meaningful because it has racism, politics, religion, etc. in it. In the end, it's a game about a guy with a gun, who shoots things.

 

[thedosbox]

Two, most of the scenarios aren't really realistic or even feasible. The Dev talks about Dragons not being real so therefore women can fight dragons. That's not it at all. The point is that a woman could barely pick up a sword yet she's going to kill a dragon?

Um, you're OK with dragons, but not with women able to swing swords?

Hint - it's a fantasy. Games can make up whatever shit they want. That's the point - to get a greater variety of stories than "dude with dark hair saves the world".

 

[ImpulsE69]

Um, you're OK with dragons, but not with women able to swing swords?

Hint - it's a fantasy. Games can make up whatever shit they want. That's the point - to get a greater variety of stories than "dude with dark hair saves the world".

Pfft. You clearly haven't played the right games. Those dudes have Orange or Blue hair.

 

[Red Hawk]

If the character being a minority or other race contributes to the plot or characters or universe in some way then by all means. Hell even if just adds visual variety than so be it. But imagine there was an "alien" character, only the "alien" looked, acted, and sounded perfectly human down to the last detail. Then what's the point of making them an alien?

We're comparing homosexuals to aliens, now?

So in an RPG when I find something starkly unusual to the point of immersion breaking; and when that something is directly related to a highly publicized current political issue, and I interpret it as political commentary, that's a complete and utter misjudgement on my part. Gee golly Mr. Red Hawk you've really opened my eyes.

Yes, it's a misjudgment on your part. Finding out a person is gay in a video game should not be something that breaks your immersion.

If Bioware was so keen on appealing to minorities why is Kasumi DLC-only? There are far more Asian-Americans than gays, where's the guaranteed Asian option? You can't deny that there's at least a subtext of commentary. Even given your explanation, Bioware specifically chose to support gay people over other larger demographics and minorities. Sure they're not leading the pride parade but they're at least standing on the sidelines waving a miniature rainbow flag.

I think at the very least including a gay character with blatant romantic options is so unusual that people shouldn't be surprised that it's considered commentary. That's been the case in popular media since the first African American in film to Marlyn Monroe and the sexual revolution; and it's not like Bioware has a track record of being particularly down to earth when it comes to its view of its work.

It's not simply appealing to minorities. Homosexuality is not just something you are, it's something you do. In a sense, then, allowing the player to be in a homosexual relationship allows homosexual players to feel included in the same way that minorities are allowed to feel included not by putting in minority characters, but by allowing the player to design his or her character as a minority.

The issue is sensitive enough that yes, merely making a character homosexual can be seen as a political statement or commentary. But what statement is that making? That this should be seen as normal, is all I can figure. Are you against that message?

 

[irishScott]

We're comparing homosexuals to aliens, now?

I'm comparing character traits in works of fiction and their relative value in a narrative, you're the one linking fictional entertainment to reality for some reason.

Yes, it's a misjudgment on your part. Finding out a person is gay in a video game should not be something that breaks your immersion.

That's the thing, I didn't "find out" anything about Cortez. I walked onto the Normandy's lower deck after a mission and was told point blank via cutscene. It's not like Kaidan where you at least had to consciously press a little in that direction, like the other romance options. Bioware wanted to make sure that we knew Cortez was gay, whether we cared to know it or not. Hence my finding it "preachy".

It's not simply appealing to minorities. Homosexuality is not just something you are, it's something you do. In a sense, then, allowing the player to be in a homosexual relationship allows homosexual players to feel included in the same way that minorities are allowed to feel included not by putting in minority characters, but by allowing the player to design his or her character as a minority.

The issue is sensitive enough that yes, merely making a character homosexual can be seen as a political statement or commentary. But what statement is that making? That this should be seen as normal, is all I can figure. Are you against that message?

I'm not against the message, just the way it was presented. The message wasn't "gays are normal." The message was: "Hey player! Cortez is Gay! You absolutely have to know this whether you care or not! And you know what? He acts normal! So gay people are normal too! Isn't learning great? /The more you know..." So either they thought gay gamers were too dumb to go through all the romance options, or they were commentating.

 

[nageov3t]

I'm not against the message, just the way it was presented. The message wasn't "gays are normal." The message was: "Hey player! Cortez is Gay! You absolutely have to know this whether you care or not! And you know what? He acts normal! So gay people are normal too! Isn't learning great? /The more you know..." So either they thought gay gamers were too dumb to go through all the romance options, or they were commentating.

is it a different message than the one sent by the legions of characters across video games who mention their opposite-sex partners, though? playing World of Warcraft, I never thought the hunt for Mankrik's wife was trying to make a comment about heterosexual marriage.

 

[Topweasel]

That's the thing, I didn't "find out" anything about Cortez. I walked onto the Normandy's lower deck after a mission and was told point blank via cutscene. It's not like Kaidan where you at least had to consciously press a little in that direction, like the other romance options. Bioware wanted to make sure that we knew Cortez was gay, whether we cared to know it or not. Hence my finding it "preachy".

By not beating around the bush and establishing his character right away? A bit player that people might not even deal with that much in between missions because outside of befriending him or making him an SO he doesn't really push the story? That's being preachy? Part of the reason Kaiden has to be prodded has to do with the fact that he was a straight option for Femshep in the first game so its almost a retcon. They just realized that Straight males Shepards and most Femsheps (played straight or gay) probably killed Kaiden off. So they tweeked his story and that meant taking a character that didn't admit to being gay in the first game and getting him to admit it in the third. That should and apparently did take some prodding.