Bio-weapons lab found

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Fausto1

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Fausto1
I'll chime in here since this "weapons lab" has been the subject of much debate here at the CDC.

The prevailing opinion is that this is not a mobile biological weapons lab. Reason being that the construction is such that avoiding contamination of whatever it is you were trying to culture would be almost impossible. Keeping your cultures clean becomes exponentially more difficult as the culture gets bigger. For a bioreactor this big, even under the most carefully controlled conditions, contamination is still a distinct possibility. This thing isn't even somewhat sealed to the elements.

If it IS an Iraqi attempt at a mobile bioweapons lab, they are clearly too incompetent as scientist to ever be any kind of threat to us. They'd be lucky to grow mold in that thing.

Photo of suspected mobile lab.

Did it occur to you and anyone you work with, that this rig could be parked inside of clean building?

Trust me. It wouldn't matter. The likelyhood of getting this thing clean once you parked it, getting the culture set up and not contaminated and then keeping it that way once you move the thing around is about nil. You don't just set up a reaction, seal it, stick it in the microwave for five minutes and then bomb New York. Making huge amounts of weaponized biological agents is not a simple process under ideal conditions. This truck thing is the polar opposite of ideal.

Yes I have no doubt this kind of setup is by no means ideal, but I also doubt it is completely unworkable.

On a small scale, maybe. But on a large scale it's about impossible. There's just too many places for contaminants to hide and ways for them to get in as you're working with the culture. You have to continually spin down the cells, dump off the nutrient broth and resuspend them in fresh broth for one thing......not contaminating your stocks while doing this is a bitch even in a biological cabinet. People do this for a living here at the CDC and cell lines will still get contaminated every now and then. Once that happens, you have to start all over.

 

[Alistar7]

Plenty of speculation, why not focus on what is known.

These trucks can be combined to make full scale labs. While not "ideal" they are mobile and easily hid, I guess you can specualte what was the driving force in design, "ideal" or deception.

They can be used to repoduce among other things, Anthrax and Botulism.

The existence of these were first brought to light by a former Iraqi scientist who claimed to have worked in one producing WMD. He was able to describe in detail the equipment as well as the layout of the mobile labs, this information was used to make a drawing which Powell submitted to the UN as part of the proof of an ongoing WMD program.

This scientist was correct in the equipment used, the way the labs were layed out, and their ability to be connected, I won't speculate whether his other claim of WMD is correct as well, but I wouldn't bet against him for 2 reasons. EVERYTHING he claimed has been true so far, and they are mobile bio labs with equipment not used in legitimate bio work, most notably filters that are used to eliminate the "signature" of the agent.

The UN itself said one of Iraq's biggest dangers was their ability to produce mass amounts of WMD RAPIDLY. Whether these labs are part of that capability remains to be seen, but they were being used to produce some weaponized bio-logical agents.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Well since the consensus is that it was for a Biological Laboratory, and it lends itself mostly to a Botox production capability. . . .
I guess that all those thousands of Arab Women will not going to be able to get their anti-wrinke treatments for a while.
Which means we'll be seeing unattractive War Brides.

Point is : Speculations is usless. We don't know what it was made for
Just sitting around doing the WHAT IF or the YEAH-BUT chant is a farce.
Given time an accurate (?) report will be made, but just making up all that
'Well, yeah - but it Might-a, Could-a, Should-a' speculation is sensationalizing on hype.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Well since the consensus is that it was for a Biological Laboratory, and it lends itself mostly to a Botox production capability. . . .
I guess that all those thousands of Arab Women will not going to be able to get their anti-wrinke treatments for a while.
Which means we'll be seeing unattractive War Brides.

Point is : Speculations is usless. We don't know what it was made for
Just sitting around doing the WHAT IF or the YEAH-BUT chant is a farce.
Given time an accurate (?) report will be made, but just making up all that
'Well, yeah - but it Might-a, Could-a, Should-a' speculation is sensationalizing on hype.

Botulism Toxin is one of the most lethal substances in the world. A single test tube dumped into a million gallon water tank (average potable water tank size in the US) would kill nearly everyone who drank the water from that tank (upwards of 10,000 people). Botox the drug is a highly dilluted form of the botulism toxin used to destroy nerve tissue. Botulism Toxin is extremely easy to produce, it's highly lethal toxin takes care of any contaminating bacteria that may be present in the organic and repeat runs of nutrient wouldn't be needed as a single run could then purify a small quanity of the toxin. Done continuously a large amount of the toxin could be produced and a little is all that is needed to kill a LOT of people.

As far as your speculation is useless comment, find a legitimate use for the mobile facility. A single use that is legitimate to have that type of equipment in a mobile platform. You won't find any use to have the equipment mobile unless you are trying to hide something. As Fausto1 has already said, the equipment wouldn't make sense unless it was bolted to ground in a factory where it could be used under ideal conditions. A clandestine weapons program that is trying to evade inspectors though would need the equipment mobile even if it meant every 9 out of 10 batches had to be thrown away.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Copy Cat BIO-LABS

 

[Alistar7]

how do you know it was a meth lab? lol

Finding one of these trucks was hardly suprising, their existence was well documented.

Finding LONG range ballistic missilles either loaded with or capable of carrying WMD would be another story.

 

[phillyTIM]

so here it is, a few days later, and this report has all but vanished

just like all the other "supposed finds"

when is the topic name going to be adjusted appropriately here?

"here's another news report that we should have shoved up our ass because we try to hard to make people believe that "something is out there" but is was disproved yet again".

lol

 

[burnedout]

Botulism Toxin is one of the most lethal substances in the world. A single test tube dumped into a million gallon water tank (average potable water tank size in the US) would kill nearly everyone who drank the water from that tank (upwards of 10,000 people).

"No instances of waterborne botulism have ever been reported. Although the potency of botulinum toxin has led to speculation that it might be used to contaminate a municipal water supply, this scenario is unlikely for at least 2 reasons. First, botulinum toxin is rapidly inactivated by standard potable water treatments (eg, chlorination, aeration). Second, because of the slow turnover time of large-capacity reservoirs, a comparably large (and technically difficult to produce and deliver) inoculum of botulinum toxin would be needed."

SOURCE: Journal of the American Medical Association, Stephen S. Arnon, MD; Robert Schechter, MD; Thomas V. Inglesby, MD; et al.

 

[etech]

Interesting, thanks for the link burnedout.

"...
Botulinum toxin is the most poisonous substance known.6-7 A single gram of crystalline toxin, evenly dispersed and inhaled, would kill more than 1 million people, although technical factors would make such dissemination difficult. The basis of the phenomenal potency of botulinum toxin is enzymatic; the toxin is a zinc proteinase that cleaves 1 or more of the fusion proteins by which neuronal vesicles release acetylcholine into the neuromuscular junction.8
....
After the 1991 Persian Gulf War, Iraq admitted to the United Nations inspection team to having produced 19 000 L of concentrated botulinum toxin, of which approximately 10 000 L were loaded into military weapons.22, 30 These 19 000 L of concentrated toxin are not fully accounted for and constitute approximately 3 times the amount needed to kill the entire current human population by inhalation. In 1990, Iraq deployed specially designed missiles with a 600-km range; 13 of these were filled with botulinum toxin, 10 with aflatoxin, and 2 with anthrax spores. Iraq also deployed special 400-lb (180-kg) bombs for immediate use; 100 bombs contained botulinum toxin, 50 contained anthrax spores, and 7 contained aflatoxin.22, 30 It is noteworthy that Iraq chose to weaponize more botulinum toxin than any other of its known biological agents. "

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: phillyTIM
so here it is, a few days later, and this report has all but vanished

just like all the other "supposed finds"

when is the topic name going to be adjusted appropriately here?

"here's another news report that we should have shoved up our ass because we try to hard to make people believe that "something is out there" but is was disproved yet again".

lol

What exactly was "disproven"? I did not realize they had made any claims about the vehicle that were disproved in any way? Did they find another use other than biological agent production for the labs? No.

Funny these matched EXACTLY the drawing Powell submitted to the UN, equipment, layout, connectivity, EVERYTHING. Maybe it helped he was given such detailed accurate information from an Iraqi scientist who worked in one of these labs and admittedly made WMD for Saddam. The UN never found these or were given access. Their mere existence was denied by Iraq.

Part of the original and still required aspects of the resolution right after the Gulf War included provision that Saddam MUST account for and RETURN the Kuwaiti POW's, he did neither, of that there is no doubt nor room for debate, must be he destroyed them but forgot to save the evidence....

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: burnedout

Botulism Toxin is one of the most lethal substances in the world. A single test tube dumped into a million gallon water tank (average potable water tank size in the US) would kill nearly everyone who drank the water from that tank (upwards of 10,000 people).

"No instances of waterborne botulism have ever been reported. Although the potency of botulinum toxin has led to speculation that it might be used to contaminate a municipal water supply, this scenario is unlikely for at least 2 reasons. First, botulinum toxin is rapidly inactivated by standard potable water treatments (eg, chlorination, aeration). Second, because of the slow turnover time of large-capacity reservoirs, a comparably large (and technically difficult to produce and deliver) inoculum of botulinum toxin would be needed."

SOURCE: Journal of the American Medical Association, Stephen S. Arnon, MD; Robert Schechter, MD; Thomas V. Inglesby, MD; et al.

What JAMA is refering to would be contamination of surface water bodies and aquefers with the toxin. Treatment of the water would neutralize the toxin. What is not conveyed is that a standard million gallon water tank has a turnover of less than 24 hours generally, chlorination has already been done and residual contact chlorination is at a minimum. Contamination of a municipal water storage tank would kill a LOT of people. Hell dumping a bunch of any lethal substance into a municipal water storage tank would kill a lot of people, the difference is that botulism toxin is so potent that only small amounts are needed.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: burnedout

Botulism Toxin is one of the most lethal substances in the world. A single test tube dumped into a million gallon water tank (average potable water tank size in the US) would kill nearly everyone who drank the water from that tank (upwards of 10,000 people).

"No instances of waterborne botulism have ever been reported. Although the potency of botulinum toxin has led to speculation that it might be used to contaminate a municipal water supply, this scenario is unlikely for at least 2 reasons. First, botulinum toxin is rapidly inactivated by standard potable water treatments (eg, chlorination, aeration). Second, because of the slow turnover time of large-capacity reservoirs, a comparably large (and technically difficult to produce and deliver) inoculum of botulinum toxin would be needed."

SOURCE: Journal of the American Medical Association, Stephen S. Arnon, MD; Robert Schechter, MD; Thomas V. Inglesby, MD; et al.

What JAMA is refering to would be contamination of surface water bodies and aquefers with the toxin. Treatment of the water would neutralize the toxin. What is not conveyed is that a standard million gallon water tank has a turnover of less than 24 hours generally, chlorination has already been done and residual contact chlorination is at a minimum. Contamination of a municipal water storage tank would kill a LOT of people. Hell dumping a bunch of any lethal substance into a municipal water storage tank would kill a lot of people, the difference is that botulism toxin is so potent that only small amounts are needed.

"Questions often arise regarding the protection of water supplies from toxins. It is unlikely that a typical small-particle aerosol attack with toxins would significantly contaminate water supplies. Furthermore, as a general rule, direct contamination of water supplies by pouring toxins into the water would require that it be done downstream of the processing plant and near the end user, even for the most toxic bacterial toxins-and normal chlorination methods are effective against some of the most potent toxins. Because of dilution, adding toxins to a lake or reservoir would be unlikely to cause human illness."

"Chlorine

Five milligrams/liter (5 parts per million) free, available chlorine (household bleach) for 30 minutes destroys botulinum toxin."

Virtual Naval Hospital - Dept of the Navy/University of Iowa