Bio-weapons lab found

[phillyTIM]

thanx Bowfinger, i am a wiser man to learn the wisdom you have brought here, and can be ready to repeat that in the future in these kind of circumstance.

 

[SnapIT]

When a few years have gone by, nothing has been found, the US will claim that they destroyed everything before the US invaded...

That is almost funny, you think that might be the reason that the UN inspectors didn't find it? Because it wasn't there?

Hans Blix deserves an apology, GW deserves an international trial...

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
By "blind patriotism" I was referring to those people who are willing to accept, often times unquestionably, the actions of this admin. They think the gov. is infallible, and just because Bush is the pres. he must be right. I've not read enough of your threads, so I'm not going to label you one, but perpetual optimists tend to be naive and easily manipulated.[/]

I'm asking you to be neither a "blind patriot" or a pessimist. Just a realist.

And how am I not being one? Realistically speaking, we have not found any WMD. Realistically speaking, we have no solid leads (all the high level people are denying the existence of WMD and others have gotten us nowhere) and the number of sights left to check has been getting smaller and smaller. Realistically speaking, Bush told the world, citing "solid" evidence, that this war was to disarm Saddam who without a doubt possesed WMD. And finally, realistically speaking, if we don't find anything we're going to look like the worlds biggest jackasses. I don't see how I'm not being a realist.

You don't know what a realist is. A realist is someone who looks at a van with biologicial cookers in it and assumes that the only reason to be cooking biological agents in a mobile van is for hidden weapons production program. A realist assumes that if the equipment had some benine purpose it isn't going to be sitting in a mobile van parked in the desert and would probably be mounted to the ground in some factory doing the benine work it was built to do. Realism is acceptance that bad people do bad things and that a spade is a spade.

Making the assumption that a van with biological cookers in it had some benine purpose would be optimistic, assuming the van was built to be given to Al Queda would be a pessimist.

Realists don't assume that if you find a uranium centrifuge that it was being used to stir paint. From a realists point view finding equipment that is used to make biological weapons is indicative of a weapons program without finding the weapons. Discovery of such equipment scrubbed with caustic cleaners leads realists to believe that evidence is being concealed or destroyed of such a program.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
By "blind patriotism" I was referring to those people who are willing to accept, often times unquestionably, the actions of this admin. They think the gov. is infallible, and just because Bush is the pres. he must be right. I've not read enough of your threads, so I'm not going to label you one, but perpetual optimists tend to be naive and easily manipulated.[/]

I'm asking you to be neither a "blind patriot" or a pessimist. Just a realist.

And how am I not being one? Realistically speaking, we have not found any WMD. Realistically speaking, we have no solid leads (all the high level people are denying the existence of WMD and others have gotten us nowhere) and the number of sights left to check has been getting smaller and smaller. Realistically speaking, Bush told the world, citing "solid" evidence, that this war was to disarm Saddam who without a doubt possesed WMD. And finally, realistically speaking, if we don't find anything we're going to look like the worlds biggest jackasses. I don't see how I'm not being a realist.

You don't know what a realist is. A realist is someone who looks at a van with biologicial cookers in it and assumes that the only reason to be cooking biological agents in a mobile van is for hidden weapons production program. A realist assumes that if the equipment had some benine purpose it isn't going to be sitting in a mobile van parked in the desert and would probably be mounted to the ground in some factory doing the benine work it was built to do. Realism is acceptance that bad people do bad things and that a spade is a spade.

Making the assumption that a van with biological cookers in it had some benine purpose would be optimistic, assuming the van was built to be given to Al Queda would be a pessimist.

Realists don't assume that if you find a uranium centrifuge that it was being used to stir paint. From a realists point view finding equipment that is used to make biological weapons is indicative of a weapons program without finding the weapons. Discovery of such equipment scrubbed with caustic cleaners leads realists to believe that evidence is being concealed or destroyed of such a program.

thats definetly not a realist, thats an optimist trying to support his view

realists check the facts and judge from an outside perspective how the picture looks like, realists dont relay on assumptions

 

[SnapIT]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
By "blind patriotism" I was referring to those people who are willing to accept, often times unquestionably, the actions of this admin. They think the gov. is infallible, and just because Bush is the pres. he must be right. I've not read enough of your threads, so I'm not going to label you one, but perpetual optimists tend to be naive and easily manipulated.[/]

I'm asking you to be neither a "blind patriot" or a pessimist. Just a realist.

And how am I not being one? Realistically speaking, we have not found any WMD. Realistically speaking, we have no solid leads (all the high level people are denying the existence of WMD and others have gotten us nowhere) and the number of sights left to check has been getting smaller and smaller. Realistically speaking, Bush told the world, citing "solid" evidence, that this war was to disarm Saddam who without a doubt possesed WMD. And finally, realistically speaking, if we don't find anything we're going to look like the worlds biggest jackasses. I don't see how I'm not being a realist.

You don't know what a realist is. A realist is someone who looks at a van with biologicial cookers in it and assumes that the only reason to be cooking biological agents in a mobile van is for hidden weapons production program. A realist assumes that if the equipment had some benine purpose it isn't going to be sitting in a mobile van parked in the desert and would probably be mounted to the ground in some factory doing the benine work it was built to do. Realism is acceptance that bad people do bad things and that a spade is a spade.

Making the assumption that a van with biological cookers in it had some benine purpose would be optimistic, assuming the van was built to be given to Al Queda would be a pessimist.

Realists don't assume that if you find a uranium centrifuge that it was being used to stir paint. From a realists point view finding equipment that is used to make biological weapons is indicative of a weapons program without finding the weapons. Discovery of such equipment scrubbed with caustic cleaners leads realists to believe that evidence is being concealed or destroyed of such a program.

A realist will see a gun, a fired gun, then without a body, assume that it was used to kill someone?

Realists do NOT assume, they wait for proof, THAT is what being a realist is about...

I am sort of surprised, this post is nothing like you, are you high?

 

[Fencer128]

Is this thread ever going to have the word "possible" put as a prefix to the title?

I realise this looks convincing - but there have been quite a few false alarms recently.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Fencer128
Is this thread ever going to have the word "possible" put as a prefix to the title?

I'll answer that

Nope Not until it and other threads quit becoming Bush bashing sessions by a few select posters

But I agree that it should have "possible" in it
CkG

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Fencer128
Is this thread ever going to have the word "possible" put as a prefix to the title?

I realise this looks convincing - but there have been quite a few false alarms recently.

Cheers,

Andy

There have been false alarms and this could be one. But I think it is quite obvious at this point that this is not a mobile baby milk truck, a roach coach or a mobile horse radish plant.

 

[CaptnKirk]

There are about 86,000 listings for Mobile Agricultural Laboratories

Pick one and see which supports your theory.

 

[ConclamoLudus]

Originally posted by: SnapIT

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
By "blind patriotism" I was referring to those people who are willing to accept, often times unquestionably, the actions of this admin. They think the gov. is infallible, and just because Bush is the pres. he must be right. I've not read enough of your threads, so I'm not going to label you one, but perpetual optimists tend to be naive and easily manipulated.[/]

I'm asking you to be neither a "blind patriot" or a pessimist. Just a realist.

And how am I not being one? Realistically speaking, we have not found any WMD. Realistically speaking, we have no solid leads (all the high level people are denying the existence of WMD and others have gotten us nowhere) and the number of sights left to check has been getting smaller and smaller. Realistically speaking, Bush told the world, citing "solid" evidence, that this war was to disarm Saddam who without a doubt possesed WMD. And finally, realistically speaking, if we don't find anything we're going to look like the worlds biggest jackasses. I don't see how I'm not being a realist.

You don't know what a realist is. A realist is someone who looks at a van with biologicial cookers in it and assumes that the only reason to be cooking biological agents in a mobile van is for hidden weapons production program. A realist assumes that if the equipment had some benine purpose it isn't going to be sitting in a mobile van parked in the desert and would probably be mounted to the ground in some factory doing the benine work it was built to do. Realism is acceptance that bad people do bad things and that a spade is a spade.

Making the assumption that a van with biological cookers in it had some benine purpose would be optimistic, assuming the van was built to be given to Al Queda would be a pessimist.

Realists don't assume that if you find a uranium centrifuge that it was being used to stir paint. From a realists point view finding equipment that is used to make biological weapons is indicative of a weapons program without finding the weapons. Discovery of such equipment scrubbed with caustic cleaners leads realists to believe that evidence is being concealed or destroyed of such a program.

A realist will see a gun, a fired gun, then without a body, assume that it was used to kill someone?

Realists do NOT assume, they wait for proof, THAT is what being a realist is about...

I am sort of surprised, this post is nothing like you, are you high?

A realist knows that he is biased no matter who he is, and knows that no matter what he will draw conclusions to support his beliefs.

A realist will know that he will pick and choose his PROOF no matter who he is. Your truth is your choice.

 

[phillyTIM]

ConclamoLudus, heh, i can't help to be reminded of some veneral disease whenever i see your username...it looks so similiar to a related medical term lol

 

[ConclamoLudus]

Originally posted by: phillyTIM
ConclamoLudus, heh, i can't help to be reminded of some veneral disease whenever i see your username...it looks so similiar to a related medical term lol

It is a venereal disease. LOL

Its latin for "what the hell are these sores?!"

It sounds medical, latin things often do...its not...

 

[phillyTIM]

oh...lol! haha *high-5*

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
There are about 86,000 listings for Mobile Agricultural Laboratories

Pick one and see which supports your theory.

None of them match what was found in that vehicle. British and US officials have determined they are unique, and whose only purpose is biological production. The filters that were in use are not used in legitimate production, their purpose is to only cover the signature of the agent.

I mentioned way back the possibility the 12 they found buried were scrubbed and was laughed at, looks like they did take the time to scrub some things down. This one is being disassembled to get to areas that would not have been cleaned, even with such a good scrubbing as was done to this unit. They should be able to find something inside this, trace amounts of Anthrax or Botulism most likely.

This is also identical to the ones described by various former Iraqi's and explained in PRECISE detail to the UN by Powell, down to overall layout and equipment placement.
I realize some ofthat intelligence was proven to be forgeries, but alot of it has been proven to be true as well.

 

[Fencer128]

Has anyone taken a photo of this thing yet?

Can someone point me to it?

Cheers,

Andy

 

[phillyTIM]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Having the materials to make WMD was not justification for the war, having WMD was. This doesn't prove anything, but it should be interesting to see people try to spin this and other insignificant finds into being enough evidence to justify the war.

 

[Alistar7]

No pics yet. Powell submitted a drawing to the UN that was identical supposedly to what was found, you might be able to find a rendition of his drawing. It would be interesting to compare the two if we ever get a look at the mobile lab. This is also identical to what was described by various independent former Iraqi scientists, one of which claimed to have worked inside one and was the source for Powell's exact drawings, unless he was one hell of a guesser I think he was legit.

I havent seen anyone try to spin this, only discusssion of the facts. This is a mobile lab used to make biological agents. We may find it was used to create Polio vaccines, still biological production but entirely legal. I would expect ANY bio lab to be thoroughly scrubbed whatever it's purpose though.

We will not know until they can get wipes from harder to
reach areas that were most likely not cleaned, the vehicle is being partially disassembled right now for this very reason.

 

[phillyTIM]

this doesn't mean crap

agents have such a long lifespan...we knew iraq had bioweapons years ago

even if some "trace" is found, it doesn't mean anything really; it's not a WMD, find us a real, live WMD...that's what is needed

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
No pics yet. Powell submitted a drawing to the UN that was identical supposedly to what was found, you might be able to find a rendition of his drawing.It would be interesting to compare the two if we ever get a look at the mobile lab.

I havent seen anyone try to spin this, only discusssion of the facts. This is a mobile lab used to make biological agents. We may find it was used to create Polio vaccines, still biological porduction but entirely legal. I woukld expect ANY bio lab to be thoroughly scrubbed whatever it's purpose though.

We will not know until they can get wipes from harder t oreach areas that were most likely not cleaned, the vehicle is being partially disassembled right now for this very reason.

I wish I could see a pic before it was partially disassembled. I mean - its existance isn't a secret - and its been known for a couple of weeks now - so why no pictures? Everyone seems to be claiming it almost exactly matches Powell's descriptions of a mobile weapons lab a la the UNSC. Why can't we see for ourselves?

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: phillyTIM
this doesn't mean crap

agents have such a long lifespan...we knew iraq had bioweapons years ago

even if some "trace" is found, it doesn't mean anything really; it's not a WMD, find us a real, live WMD...that's what is needed

Stabilizers can be added to agents to make them last much longer.

The UN itself released a report stating one of the most important factors to remember about Iraq is that it has the capability to RAPIDLY produce MASS amounts of WMD. They felt this ABILITY was the greatsest concern and needed to be addressed.

We are talking TONS in less than a few months.

Why were these "innocent" labs never shown to the UN? If their use was not a violation and Powell said "what about those?", Iraq would have said, look them over. They didn't because their purpose was hardly benign.

The only spin I see is anti- war, anti- bush people refusing to accept certain facts or discuss this intelligently.

Why were filters being used for LEGITIMATE biological agent production? The only purpose of this is to HIDE the signature of the agent, and it is not done in ANY legitimate biological work worldwide.

Andy the US is not going to say, "here is the evidence" until they are 200% sure, they have never claimed to have found anything yet and won't until the evidence it incontravertable.

 

[Fencer128]

Andy the US is not going to say, "here is the evidence" until they are 200% sure, they have never claimed to have found anything yet and won't until the evidence it incontravertable.

I would still like to see a picture - especially since so many people are making judgements based on what they hear 2nd hand. What possible harm could be done by showing a picture?

In fact, I haven't been able to get hold of any first hand evidence surrounding any of the claims of WMD/terrorist links so far. I haven't seen a photocopy of any of the documents that have been regularly cited - only snippets that could possibly have been taken out of context.

I do not doubt the dubious nature of a lot of these "innocent" finds in Iraq - but I would like to see the unabridged evidence for myself, rather than be told parts of it through the media/government.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Alistar7]

I think we will likely see final reports in an effort for the US to project a sense of an overwhelming amount of evidence.

How many clear documented links to terrorists do you think they made or kept? Same with WMD? These are hardly the types of activites that are carried out in the open.

It will all shake out in the end though.

Snap, the US does not have to claim it was all destoryed right beofre the war, they have various Iraqi scientists who surrendered and indepepndently claim that themselves.

 

[CaptnKirk]

No Al-7 all you DO is SPIN ALL THE TIME.
There has NOT been a subject on any topic that you have not tried to put the spin on.
No thought about what it might be or a justification of it's existance for anything but your spin.
Remember the 400 Lb ball of DU that you live with every day - you spun how harmless it was.
Point is - it was NOT a penetration weapon, just a glob of DU.
DU used as a penetration weapon enters a diferent world of dynamic physics than a stationary lab item.

I am not concerened with the guilt or innocence of the Deadly Killer BIO-Labs that are cleaned
(Read DISARMED - it meets and exceeds the disarmament requirements)
I just want the experts to explore what is really there, and report the findings -
not speculate on what it might of or could have been. We do not know.

There was a picture of the vehicle in question sitting in a ditch about 3 weeks back,
but now it appears to have more than doubled in size, or at least thats what the 'Sketches' showed.
Someone for some reason is manipulation the release of this info - who and for what purpose? Spin ?

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
I think we will likely see final reports in an effort for the US to project a sense of an overwhelming amount of evidence.

How many clear documented links to terrorists do you think they made or kept? Same with WMD? These are hardly the types of activites that are carried out in the open.

It will all shake out in the end though.

There have of recent been references to documents found suggesting Al-Quaeda links. There have been many suggestions made at France behaving in an underhanded way. There have been stories nearly every other day concerning WMD.

Can I please see the primary evidence? Nor snippets or press briefings or "secret" sources. Can I see something with my own eyes, in context. Failure to do such only casts doubt over the standard of evidence (and I expect that there are things that show WMD/Al-Quaeda links - but my real concern is to what magnitude).

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Alistar7]

All that evidence is not is the US's hands either. Some of it is in the possesion of international reporters who found and reported the information. I would like to see those documents myself, but I doubt it would do me much good, I cannot read any type of Arabic languages.

No Al-7 all you DO is SPIN ALL THE TIME

pot calling the kettle black....

Like this? What was my "spin" on that news?????? take your foot out of your mouth please, youre mumbling.

I provide links to back up my claims, I argue on the facts at hand. Show me what I have SPUN in here..... good luck, all you will find is a discussion of what is KNOWN.


you are one of the masters of spin, having no evidence to back up your claims, all of which are pretty much just based on bias, you use personal attacks and create conspiracy theories when nothing else pans out.. what a joke.


Capn's spin

Last night - on FOX News (Of all places) there was an analasys of this 'Documentation of WMD Evidence' , and what was discussed was that the INC (Iraqi National Congress) the one that he Pentagons Puppet Chabaldi (Sp -?) heads up, the one that the Administration is trying to impose to lead Iraq, as 'Our Friend' (who's wanted for Bank Fraud in the adjacent countries) is the "Reliable Source" that gave Powell the 'Agent on the ground - within Iraq' intelligence information of Biological Weapons Facilities, Mobile Laboratories, and the Nuclear Weapons information that the UN Inspectors found to be fradulent.

This looks like they were cooking the books for their own agenda, and had the eyes ears of the Chicken-Hawks and Neo-Cons, who in their gleeful exuberance grabbed onto anything that even remotely looked like it would support their pre-conceived reasons for war.

What a shame.

Tell me this - What purpose does it serve for the Iraqi Scientists to deny that there are any weapons left? Every one of them is saying that they were destroyed. If they were to say 'Yes - still got 'em' that would be what Bushies Boys want to hear, and they would be greatly rewarded and coddeled to just for showing it. The Regime is crushed, the threat is gone, but there are still no WMD's found.

Yes, we still need a Regime change - this time to get rid of our liars.

Oh, yeah - forgot to add: At the end of Gulf-1, our military under Swartzkoff destroyed many bunkers of weapons, and refused to list, record, or document in any way what was in them. Many of the Gulf-1 soldiers stated that they looked like stockpiles of weapons left over from the Iran-Iraq war, and probably contained chemical weapons. That in itself would account for why Iraq could not provide proof of their disposal, our Army destroyed it and didn't bother accounting for it.

nice spin, you don't have a little liberal bias do you? lol, either way, it is very nice of you to speculate why the Iraqis could not account for certain WMD. I guess they couldn't account forthis mobile bio lab because we destroyed that 12 years ago too? hhhmmmm