Bill Kristol: "There will be an independent candidate--an impressive one"

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Ratman6161

Senior member
Mar 21, 2008
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you know..at t his point I want Hillary to be indicted (and stay in the race along with BS) and the GOP to put in a 3rd party in as president.

That would be the most epic clusterfuck of a election ever and won't be topped!

Well, not really the most epic as it has actually happened before. Read up on the presidential election of 1824. Andrew Jackson had the most popular votes and also the most votes in the electoral college and yet the second place finisher, John Quincy Adams became president. There were four candidates from the "Democratic-Republican" party (no relation to either of the modern day parties). Heard of William Harris Crawford? He was the "official" party candidate and came in third. It was decided in the House.

So that's a somewhat similar situation to some other Republican today running.

Another example of an election where multiple candidates counted was obviously 1860. the Democrats split into northern and southern branches running separate candidates. The Whigs (anybody seen one of them lately?) disintegrated. Anti-slavery Democrats and the remaining Whigs joined together to become the Republican Party, with Abraham Lincoln as their candidate.

So we had the Republicans, the Northern Democrats, the Southern Democrats and the Constitutional Union party and 4 candidates total. All four of them won some states. Lincoln ended up with only 40% of the popular vote but with more than enough electoral votes to be the clear winner.

This goes to show that when one or more parties fractures and/or disintegrates, we get an upheaval that generally results in a new party. Even though I'm a life long Republican, I think its about time for that to happen.

I'm looking for a party that is fiscally conservative but gets itself out of everyone's bedroom and isn't joined at the hip to the religious right. My 2 cents worth.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,185
4,844
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I'm looking for a party that is fiscally conservative but gets itself out of everyone's bedroom and isn't joined at the hip to the religious right.
There are many groups like that. There are the dying blue dog democrats: http://www.bluedogdems.com/content/about

But there is also the New Democrats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democrat_Coalition

Rockefeller Republicans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Republican

And many more.

Lots of people claim to have that set of ideologies (I do too). But they tend to be some of the most hated people out there. The Rockefeller Republicans are now called RINOs (Republicans in Name Only) to show how hated they are. Do a Google search for "fiscally conservative democrat" and you'll get almost all articles at the top saying that you don't really believe in the ideologies that you claim to believe in.

The best I can find is the Libertarian / Liberal intersection, voting for candidates in both parties. This is opposed to the Libertarian / Conservative intersection called the Tea Party.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Not really on the bolded. Sure, if you draw a Venn Diagram then Libertarians and liberals agree on some social issues but typically for entirely different reasons and there's plenty of areas of disagreement as well. If anything when Libertarians and liberals do agree on social issues it's more accident of circumstance than anything and just proves the "broken clock theory" that even liberals can be correct twice a day.

https://anarchistnotebook.com/2015/...s-not-socially-liberal-fiscally-conservative/
I very much disagree with that article. For one, the author makes the point that: "Left liberal social values are not about people being free to do as they see fit in their personal lives, they are about forcefully disrupting the established social order and bringing chaos into the world." He defines those liberal values as "an inherently pro-State collection of policies not based in any particular coherent philosophy. They embrace and promote, a considerably different thing than to leave be or tolerate, feminism, homosexuality, “transgenderism” (a complete bullshit made up word), drugs, promiscuity, abortion, birth control, the abolition of the family, phony egalitarianism, racism against whites, sexism against men, and a myriad of other nihilistic nonsensical drivel. It opposes defensive force, freedom of association, and division of labor."

That is all true of a subset within liberalism, what I call the progressives or Social Justice Warriors. These people may be ascendent within liberalism today - they certainly SEEM to be ascendent, though perhaps due more to their shrill volume and high profile more than their numbers. But plenty of liberals today (including plenty of people who describe themselves as progressive) still believe in tolerance of those things, not necessarily promoting those things. That is, they don't care how you personally feel about gay or transgendered people, they only care that you treat them just like everyone else. Insisting that government protect a transgendered person's right to have an equal shot at renting an apartment or getting a job isn't necessarily promoting transgenders, it's just saying "play nice". Granted, Social Justice Warriors take that a LOT farther, into controlling and punishing thought and speech, but that is not necessarily liberalism as a whole. To identify liberalism as purely its worse element, what I term progressives, is to also lose what is good about liberalism, which gave us virtually everything we value about our secular society - including freedom of religion. That might be fine if conservatism was completely about conserving what we have (although it wrongly assumes that Western Liberalism has nothing more of value to contribute to our society) but there are major elements within the conservative movement who are just as authoritarian (and just as wrong, and just as vicious) as the Social Justice Warriors. An eagle with two wings can fly; an eagle with one wing can only flop around on the ground.

I disagree as well with the author's characterization of libertarianism as both pro-private property rights and self-ownership but anti-state. Without the state, private property rights and self-ownership are limited to what the individual can achieve with force of arms. Certainly libertarians are against the state intruding into areas where it is ill-suited and not required - in that sense, very much in favor of limiting the power and scope of the state - but to be anti-state is anarchism, not libertarianism.

I'm still waiting to be impressed
Hope you brought a good book.

Two of those articles are from back in March, and the third article is very vague and when they do have comments from anyone worth anything they all are dismissive of such a plot as basically pointless and will accomplish nothing of substance.

It's kind of interesting, but not something to be believed in. There are many on the right who don't want Trump to be the nominee. There also are many on the left who don't want Clinton to be the nominee.
I tend to agree, but never underestimate the Republicans' will and ability to assemble a circular firing squad.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
What's this guy gonna run on, replacing the Constitution with the Statement of Principles of the Project for the New American Century? The problem with 3 of the 6 counties Kristol has advocated invading have already turned into Jihadi shitholes, do we really need to destabilize 3 more countries to somehow reach Neo-con/Neo-liberal nirvana? Just endorse Hillary already; you'll get your wars.

Funny you should put it in those terms, given that Clinton endorses the Iran deal, a country that the Neocons would love to line up as the next really big invasion. Heck, maybe if they could have goaded Iran into making nuclear weapons they could justify using our own. What an adventure, huh?
 

Ratman6161

Senior member
Mar 21, 2008
616
75
91
There are many groups like that. There are the dying blue dog democrats: http://www.bluedogdems.com/content/about

But there is also the New Democrats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democrat_Coalition

Rockefeller Republicans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Republican

And many more.

Lots of people claim to have that set of ideologies (I do too). But they tend to be some of the most hated people out there. The Rockefeller Republicans are now called RINOs (Republicans in Name Only) to show how hated they are. Do a Google search for "fiscally conservative democrat" and you'll get almost all articles at the top saying that you don't really believe in the ideologies that you claim to believe in.

The best I can find is the Libertarian / Liberal intersection, voting for candidates in both parties. This is opposed to the Libertarian / Conservative intersection called the Tea Party.

I'm definitely going to be registering a "protest vote" this year. My brother says that's a wasted vote and is essentially a vote for Clinton. My take is that due to the anachronism called the electoral college, my vote for president never really counts anyway. That's because the democrats could run a "turd sandwich" (to borrow from Southpark) and would still win Minnesota. We were the only state that Ronald Reagan didn't win in 1984 (not including DC) . So I guess I could say that every time I vote for president, its a protest vote. We can only hope that there will be enough protest votes to send a message.

The message being that I will not vote for a clown or a criminal (you guess wich one is which).
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Just stopped by to say I'm still waiting
Okay, make that several good books, for you shall be waiting awhile.

Even assuming the Krystol wing actually vomits forth a candidate, he or she will be neither impressive nor independent.
 

xaeniac

Golden Member
Feb 4, 2005
1,641
14
81
David French......

French Surrender: Kristol’s Pick David French: I Am NOT Running For President

Who's David French???
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
David French......

French Surrender: Kristol’s Pick David French: I Am NOT Running For President

Who's David French???
Somebody who isn't running for president although he is impressive and has a real chance.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,862
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Somebody who isn't running for president although he is impressive and has a real chance.

I don't know who David French is either, I did see him on Morning Joe. David claimed he wasn't interested in running because the racist wing of Trump supporters were going after his mixed race daughter in a ugly manner. His words not mine
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I don't know who David French is either, I did see him on Morning Joe. David claimed he wasn't interested in running because the racist wing of Trump supporters were going after his mixed race daughter in a ugly manner. His words not mine
So in other words, this "impressive independent candidate" is simply another GOP establishment actor attempting to give us President Hillary. Nice.

Honestly, at this point I'm tempted to vote for no Republicans at all. If they are so determined that Hillary is better than the candidate selected by their own primary voters - not a voting block with which I generally align on much anyway - then surely President Hillary needs a Democrat Congress as well. After all, if the Republican primary voters make such a horrendously bad choice for President, why should I trust their other primary picks?
 
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